182 (TURBO or SUPERCHARGER)

[DACARS]

Hi Guys

Just bought my old track car back, an 05 Racing Blue 182. It's a nice spec and always went well. But I need more power! I've been looking at the Engine Dynamics 230 turbo conversion for £2800 fitted or the 280 turbo conversion for £4600 fitted. There's also the K-Tec 260 supercharger kit for £4300 which I feel would be more reliable and better suited for heavy track use! Thoughts please

 

[Adey.]

I built a SC one many years back and owned a turbo one also, Supercharger hands down for delivery on the track, just like driving a big power NA engine with constant increase in power right to the rev limiter

 

[JamesBryan]

Supercharged.

 

[sugbug]

TURBO

my turbo 240bhp engine dynamics
www.youtube.com/channel/UCeCFCJWbL6tG1dTCFkffnHw

 

[CrippsCorner]

230T seems much better value for money... but I'm a real sucker for a supercharger; love 'em!

 

[Adey.]

On a second note there's less issues with heat on a sc car, no boiling brake fluid and no turbo to keep coming loose

 

[gambit]

Rotrex Supercharger, just for the whine at idle and on boost. Nothing like it.
Some inspiration:

 

[scullyg40]

Rotrex Supercharger, just for the whine at idle and on boost. Nothing like it.
Some inspiration:

I guess the music pushed away the supercharger whine. 🤣

 

[gambit]

I guess the music pushed away the supercharger whine. 🤣

Yeah vid got nothing to do with the whining! 😂

 

[Adey.]

I built mine probably 10 years ago so so excuse the potato camera. It was 240bhp to start with then increased to 280bhp later on with a larger air restrictor on a stock 100k ph1 engine and clutch. Omex 600 ecu with meg 225 injectors.

 

[David Stuart]

I don’t have direct experience of a clio. But I have a rotrex supercharged classic mini. My brother have a turbo.

Turbo is the sensible choice. Cheaper and ultimately a faster car. More torque earlier which give better acceleration.

I went the supercharger route for something different. Still a very quick car and will have a totally different feel. As other folk have said it will have a better response. Or more accurately it won’t have any lag at any point in the Rev range.


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[Cub.]

Supercharged. There are vids of my old one in here;

Cub's Flamer - Supercharged, Cage etc

Shame to see it go. But I get why. Lovely car, probably one of the most reliable SC'd 172's on here, although probably did the least miles ? SC’s are much more reliable than turbos IMO. It’s been SC’d since 2014 so it’s done 8k or so on the charger without missing a beat.

cliosport.net

 

[scullyg40]

I can't comment on both the Clio setups, but I did own a mildly tuned (160 hp) Polo G40 a long time ago, and engine wise it just felt like there was a bigger engine in there, zero lag.
I now have a Golf 7 GTI, and while it's more than 20 years more developed, lag is still present, and dosage of the throttle is more difficult because of it.
For a trackcar, I would prefer the G40, funnily enough, a lot of track G40's get converted to turbo because of reliability. 😂

 

[JB21]

SC all day, TC track cars are boooooring!

 

[Adey.]

g40 runs a gladder supercharger though so different. Most clios run a Rotrex, very different in design. (mine did break though lol)

but in terms of strain on the rest of the vehicle, heat management (no big turbo close to the bulkhead, brake lines and steering rack) its a better bet, just alot bigger outlay. I think the charger alone at cost is circa £1500 sheets.

 

[Adey.]

oooo found more, now i want another

 

[182Trophy]

What are rough ballpark figures for a sensible SC set up? Does anything need forging ect?

I am eventually going to do the same.

Enjoy!

 

[npt]

SC but it if comes down to cost, turbo is a good bit cheaper and if kept around 230 it should be reliable enough

 

[Cub.]

What are rough ballpark figures for a sensible SC set up? Does anything need forging ect?

I am eventually going to do the same.

Enjoy!

If you keep it below 260 / 250hp and a sensible level of torque, nothing needs forging.

Mine was detailed in that thread I posted. New DIY fitting kit with everything including gen90 ecu is £5k from K-tec but second hand they are clearly cheaper. Problem is finding the kits for sale as they’re quite rare. You also need to be careful about wear on the rotrex, as they’re expensive to replace and can’t really be repaired unlike a turbo.

It isn’t a cheap upgrade. My advice would be to do other things before charging, like;

- decent tyres
- big brake kit
- suspension and handling
- Limited slip diff (the LSD on standard power made huge difference to mine, and is pretty much a requirement in my opinion if you charge it).

All of these will make the car faster on both track and road. The supercharger I put on mine was great, but they aren’t cheap.

 

[Waitey]

Turbo


Rotrex's have all the lag of one and none of the go.

Rotrex's also don't whine FFS!

 

[David Stuart]

Turbo


Rotrex's have all the lag of one and none of the go.

Rotrex's also don't whine FFS!

Correct. Did wonder about that comment. They are amazingly quiet.

I’m not sure they have “all of the lag”. Just that they have maximum boost at maximum RPM. It’s always providing the amount of boost it’s supposed to at a given RPM.


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[Waitey]

Correct. Did wonder about that comment. They are amazingly quiet.

I’m not sure they have “all of the lag”. Just that they have maximum boost at maximum RPM. It’s always providing the amount of boost it’s supposed to at a given RPM.


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Me and Andy Forrest were chatting about this.

If you take a standard amount of energy from a motor, per psi per application the boost profiles look like this over a rev range:

Rotrex/Centrifugal

0 0 0 2 2 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7

Eaton/Roots (correctly sized)

4 5 6 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7

Turbo (Assuming a turbo is 100% more efficient than a charger at using work to make boost. When in fact is closer to 120%)

0 4 6 14 14 14 14 14 14 14


So Rotrex's give you your least bang for buck, but can make peak power comparable to a roots. They can also help with packaging too, since they are small and can fit anywhere round the front of an engine.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Rotrex also don't make the heat an eaton does. I personally find Rotrex superchargers suit high revving engines more than an eaton or turbo. E46 M3 with rotrex looses none of the character or delivery - everything is just... more. They do take the worst aspects of supercharging and turbo charging though and many wouldn't choose to install them if it wasn't for their compactness.

Your turbo line of numbers is also assuming that you have chosen a turbo which is perfectly sized for the application which often isn't that case in non OEM installs and a Rotrex is a fair bit more efficient than an old tech eaton. New eatons are pretty good though, more efficient than many think - inline with a twin screw.

Like really modern turbo charged vehicles are seriously impressive lag and spool wise compared to even 10years ago. But you do certainly lose a lot of the drama imo and however good can never be as responsive as a heavily supercharged vehicle. a 5.0 XKR and an M4 are fairly similar performance wise but the responsiveness of the XKR is on another level.

For the Clio I would personally use a Rotrex, they are kinder to engines than either turbo or eaton and do not require in many applications that the compression ratio is lowered. I have thought about it often but I would be replacing the power steering pump with a shaft and driving the blower from the air box side of the engine in order to keep the AC. For me it always comes down to effort and there are other cars more worthy of the effort and expense etc.

 

[David Stuart]

Rotrex also don't make the heat an eaton does. I personally find Rotrex superchargers suit high revving engines more than an eaton or turbo. E46 M3 with rotrex looses none of the character or delivery - everything is just... more. They do take the worst aspects of supercharging and turbo charging though and many wouldn't choose to install them if it wasn't for their compactness.

Your turbo line of numbers is also assuming that you have chosen a turbo which is perfectly sized for the application which often isn't that case in non OEM installs and a Rotrex is a fair bit more efficient than an old tech eaton. New eatons are pretty good though, more efficient than many think - inline with a twin screw.

Like really modern turbo charged vehicles are seriously impressive lag and spool wise compared to even 10years ago. But you do certainly lose a lot of the drama imo and however good can never be as responsive as a heavily supercharged vehicle. a 5.0 XKR and an M4 are fairly similar performance wise but the responsiveness of the XKR is on another level.

For the Clio I would personally use a Rotrex, they are kinder to engines than either turbo or eaton and do not require in many applications that the compression ratio is lowered. I have thought about it often but I would be replacing the power steering pump with a shaft and driving the blower from the air box side of the engine in order to keep the AC. For me it always comes down to effort and there are other cars more worthy of the effort and expense etc.

All really good points.

Also worth noting the turbo figures assume the correct sizing but any supercharger can be resized easily. If you want to PSI brought lower down the Rev range just stick a bigger crank or smaller charger pulley on and you are there.

You will get to a point where you can’t keep increasing boost linearly at the top end with different pulley sizes but it will definitely boost lower down the revs.

I moved from a 95mm crank to a 114mm crank. Moved peak boost from 0.4 to 0.6 bar and got a 20bhp gain and 25 ftlb from 3000 rpm up.


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[Robbie Corbett]

Yes absolutely - there was a company called Antonov some time ago that mounted a two speed centrifugal gearbox on the front of a rotrex c30. They didn't sell well but it was a nice idea. If I had a spare few years and a stack of money I would love to build something like a twin charged 2JZ - a few people have successfully implemented an over geared, clutch eaton with an over sized and very efficient turbo well but getting them to drive well would be hard work I suspect.

I have an S54 and a C38-91 sitting in a large box waiting patiently for me to free up some time - there would be better or more efficient options for sure but either way it will be good fun.

What concerns me most is the longevity of the Rotrex, I would love to find an electrotechnical clutch small enough and with a high enough torque rating so I could have the blower disengaged for most of its life.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Also like the K20 Clio conversions a few people are doing right now, K20 + rotrex in a Clio seems like it would be a good mix.