197...Just not as good as a Trophy.

[Ollie82.]

Just read the hot hatch group test in EVO with the new Corsa VXR v New Cooper v 197 v Ibiza Cupra.

Interesting reading. Makes you realise (yet again) just how good the good ol' Trophy really is and how big a void it has left since its demise....

As good as the 197 is it simply left the EVO boys open mouthed on the final downhill twisty section of the road test...the one run they hoped would seperate the cars, and decide a winner......it was at the back of the pack that was driving (or should we say flying) down this section and it was being LEFT BEHIND!!

Make of it what you will....the video of it is on EVO.co.uk.

 

[MarkCup]

Ooh, is my issue gonna be on my doormat when I get home?

 

[bmh.01]

Mine came this morning so it may be.

 

[DERVil]

the 197 is too darn heavy. As far as I remember it best part of a second slower to 60mph, and 30-70mph more than a second slower. Enough to put it in tuned diesel terratory. That said IM sure it supposed to have a better chassis than the 182 or Cup/Trophy models.

 

[Tyson-182]

How did the VXR fair up?

Tys.

 

[Neil G]

What car came out on top?

 

[Steve2004]

the video of it is on EVO.co.uk.

Is it? I can't find it.

 

[Justin]

my copy came on friday

 

[Ollie82.]

The Mini came out on top. They didn't write off the 197...not by any stretch....it got 4 stars. The VXR apparently keeps up with it without any struggle though!

They say the chassis is by far the best, but it just lacks.
Too much weight and just underpowered...simple as that.

The Mini is the most likely to become the new hot hatch 'hero' as they described it. The one to take over from the Trophy.
But surely thats the 197's job?!

 

[Justin]

The Mini came out on top. They didn't write off the 197...not by any stretch....it got 4 stars. The VXR apparently keeps up with it without any struggle though!

They say the chassis is by far the best, but it just lacks.
Too much weight and just underpowered...simple as that.

was a good read.. so was the part with the elise vs the cayenne turbo

 

[Bezza4]

To be fair I wouldn't expect the 197 to take the Trophy's place straight away. The 197 should be compared to a FF 172 / 182 as it is the first of the new shape. The Trophy was the last of the limited editions, so they were always going to save the best til last. As with any other Renault Sport I would expect several limited editions to come out of the 197 as is being proved with the F1. Only when the 197 is coming to the end of its life will they bring out the best of the editions, which then will proably be on par with the Trophy.

 

[Don]

To be fair I wouldn't expect the 197 to take the Trophy's place straight away. The 197 should be compared to a FF 172 / 182 as it is the first of the new shape. The Trophy was the last of the limited editions, so they were always going to save the best til last. As with any other Renault Sport I would expect several limited editions to come out of the 197 as is being proved with the F1. Only when the 197 is coming to the end of its life will they bring out the best of the editions, which then will proably be on par with the Trophy.

Just like with the 172...it was arguably the 172 Cup, and 182 it was definately the Trophy.

 

[Ollie82.]

My thoughts exactly fellas.

Its all about evolution. As you rightly said, the 172 was at its pinnacle with the Cup and the 182 was the same with the Trophy.

Same goes for the Meggy. Im fairly sure they have reached the top of the tree with it now.
I just hope RenaultSport do the 197 justice and make the Cup/Trophy version a right stormer.
It needs less weight and more power. Or one over the other. I think if it became less of a fatty bombatty then there would be less need for more grunt.

 

[seb]

maybe i have a different car but my 197 is stunning and i definetely think it is quicker xcountry than my old 182. handling is god like. the mini must be earth shattering tbh. i must have missed something.

 

[RobHardyUK]

id agree, id say the 197 is quicker cross country, handling is to good. tbh i dont think its much slower neither and ive had all renaultsports in clio trim nor bar the v6

 

[rich[182]]

Thing is we can all wait for another year for a cupped or trophy'd 197 thats lighter with a better bhp/ton but thats simply offset by spending £300 on a turbo remap on the other 3 for an easy +30bhp and anything upto +50Ib/ft torque, sure a cupped/tropy'd 197 would prob out handle the other 3 but how many joe public drivers ever be able to extract that day to day ?
Renault need to up the anti pretty damn quick imo, on an already tuned n/a engine I can't see them raising it much and it'd have to lose circa 100kg
The only logical thing to do is add a turbo but I'd imagine they'd have to have the Meg RS outputting near 250bhp so that a Clio 225ish (approx) isn't perceived to be faster by the masses etc thus spoiling Meg sales, but then the price of a turbo'd 197 would end up being Meg RS territory anyway so I can't see it ever happening

 

[jayxx83]

yea i remember reading reviews of ph1 172 when it came out and it didnt exactly set the motoring world alight although power figures were class leading at the time by a long way. the trophy was the best saved till last and the mags lapped it up.

 

[tommyboy]

God, check out the 197 haters in here. It's a much much better car overall than it's predecessor imo, feels better in every department. Is built much better too. Interior is modern. I hope Renault release a sub 5 to 60 197 Trophy to shut you lot up!

Too many people are jealous as their car is not as advanced and they'll still be paying the credit on their 182s when the quick 197 is released whatever it may be.

 

[seb]

lol love that post, very funny!

 

[tommyboy]

Yeah but Seb... you know it's right! For a FACT

 

[seb]

you sound like you should own a 197

 

[rich[182]]

God, check out the 197 haters in here. It's a much much better car overall than it's predecessor imo, feels better in every department. Is built much better too. Interior is modern. I hope Renault release a sub 5 to 60 197 Trophy to shut you lot up!

Too many people are jealous as their car is not as advanced and they'll still be paying the credit on their 182s when the quick 197 is released whatever it may be.

Moi not a 197 hater, but could & should have been better, backed up by the fact the competition have caught up and surpassed in most areas
No ones doubting the improved build quality over 172/182
Trophy 197 - bring it on, sub 0-60 is what i want lol
Jealous - certainly not, more than happy with my 182

 

[Dave H]

The 197 is to porky....its a bit like Prince Naz making a come back.Too heavy.....and looks like Bob Monkhouse!

 

[Ollie82.]

God, check out the 197 haters in here. It's a much much better car overall than it's predecessor imo, feels better in every department. Is built much better too. Interior is modern. I hope Renault release a sub 5 to 60 197 Trophy to shut you lot up!

Too many people are jealous as their car is not as advanced and they'll still be paying the credit on their 182s when the quick 197 is released whatever it may be.

Check out the defensive 197 lover!
Now come on down off the soapbox. Im pretty sure there aren't any 197 HATERS in here.
Hell im contstantly drooling over the on in my local Renault showroom.
Yes its chassis dynamics set it above the old shape Clio and yes its better built, and YES us poor and poverty stricken 172/182 owners are oh so jealous that we aren't as far up the status ladders as those lucky enough to own one.
But should i automatically want one just becasue it has a nicer more grown up interior and lovely soft touch plastics?

IF they do manage to lighten the thing up and make it a more fun car to drive it doesn't mean im gonna jump on the bandwagon and buy one. Infact im looking to UPGRADE to a Trophy when the time comes to move on.

My lowly ol Cup may rattle and clang along, but for a purer drivng experience i know where i'd rather be, and i know for sure the Trophy is a step up from that.
I've driven the 197. Yes its good but it didn't astound me. Why? Because it was too clinical...to the point where it felt detached.
The 172's and 182's are flawed but they are nuggety, harder, rawer...akin to the 80's hot hatches.

The 197 is the 182, but grown up....but that does not neccessarily mean its an improvement.

 

[seb]

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't have the same thread going over and over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All this does my head in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder no one posts about cars on this forum anymore and just sits in GC. All we do is go around in circles.

EVO said the mini is best so it must be true. here ends the min advenutre.

the end.

 

[Ollie82.]

What do you mean you can't have the same thread going over and over again??!!

It happens all the bloody time?!!

Why you gonna single out this thread?!

 

[seb]

just because this thread has broken my threshold for the same old stuff eventually just being discussed. thats all. don't take it personally.

 

[Ollie82.]

Well it may be another angle on a recurring theme, but surely its gonna crop up more and more with yet more new hot hatches being put up against the 197.

I don't take pleasure in another Renaultsport stablemate gettin less than favourable reviews...im so used to reading about them trouncing everything in their class that its a bit hard to swallow.

 

[seb]

i don't mind the reviews saying the 197 is s**t etc as i know different

i just get fed up with how the majority of threads on cs eventually go back to the same old topics in the end... I am also to blame for this as i no doubt have added to it in the past/present etc.

 

[Ollie82.]

Ive read the reviews as well. I've also driven the car. Refinement and chassis aside i still wasn't bowled over.
But hey, if we were all the same we'd have bought one by now...

 

[seb]

knowsit^^^

i like autocars reviews tbh, much more accurate

 

[Ollie82.]

I have noticed Autocar and Top Gear both have very similar views on alot of cars....usually more appraising than EVO.

I've always been a pro-evo (yes the footy game as well) guy though.
How do you measure accuracy in a car review apart from the figures?

 

[seb]

indeed^^^ always an amount of personal judgement. but i love chris harris in a non ghey way so i go with him.

 

[Ollie82.]

Ahh thats fair. I've grown quite fond of the EVO boys, again in a non ghey way, hence my allegiance to all that is EVO.

 

[fizzy_drink]

So how can a Cupped 182 be top of various group tests... only for the 197 not to be?

In it's current form, the 197 is clearly not as good as the all singing & dancing 182 (in the journalists' eyes).

I'm sure there'll be updated versions of the 197 as we go along... just like the cupped 182 finally came about (which accounted for most of the 182 sales).

Now, we can't say that a std 172 is the same as a Cupped 182: They're different cars in important areas (springs/dampers). Therefore similarly, when a better tuned version on the 197 comes out, current 197 owners cannot then say that their MK1 197 is king...

The crown can only be worn by whichever version of that car comes out trumps. I can see a lot of disappointed 197 owners out there when the final version is released (just like when the cupped 225 was released, although I learned fairly quickly that my 225 was sh*t, and I didn't need a newer version to prove it to me).

 

[MarkCup]

I think the 197's a great car, refined, well screwed together, sure-footed.

But, I think a hot-hatch should be a hooligan, that's the point. Big engine, little car.

My 172 cup is a hooligan.

The 197 isn't in my opinion.

 

[seb]

In it's current form, the 197 is clearly not as good as the all singing & dancing 182 (in the eyes of EVO).

Autocar stated the 197 was better than the 182 when they did their road test so it is all horses for courses.

It all depends which review you want to go with.

i go with driving it myself

 

[Rain]

God, check out the 197 haters in here. It's a much much better car overall than it's predecessor imo, feels better in every department. Is built much better too. Interior is modern. I hope Renault release a sub 5 to 60 197 Trophy to shut you lot up!

Too many people are jealous as their car is not as advanced and they'll still be paying the credit on their 182s when the quick 197 is released whatever it may be.

LOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[Steve2004]

Autocar stated the 197 was better than the 182 when they did their road test so it is all horses for courses.

It all depends which review you want to go with.

i go with driving it myself

Yeah but lets face it, Autocar probably preferred the 197 because it had a bigger boot, more rear legroom and didn't rattle all the time! :clown:


I really liked the 197 I test drove, although the steering was too light and I'd hate to take it on a motorway cruise, but other than that I'd rather have one than my current 172.

Although saying that, my next car isn't going to be a Renault, as I can see the 197 falling to pieces with age just like the mk2 clios did.

 

[DynamiqueDebz]

So far I have only seen one 197 in the flesh and personally speaking looks wise it's not my cup of tea. This could make me biased if it came to a test drive, I may well be looking for what I may not like about it, rather than what it is capable of.

I think it is fair to say that a car is only as good as the driver behind the wheel. I really don't take much notice of what is written down on paper. We all know that offical figures can be pure b****cks. I only have to look at the offical performance figures for my car to know it's crap!

You are bound to get very varied reviews on any car depending on who is driving it and what that driver is comparing it to. A simple thing like not liking the driving position can determin how you drive it. If when you first get into a car your overall impression is favourable you are more likely to want to put it through its paces. If however you are not very impressed when you get in, it might make you feel uncomfortable about giving it some abuse.

It's all very much swings and roundabouts if you ask me.