Anti surge baffle plates.

[Kelv]

Having had many a big power Cossie engine for trackday use, one of the first things that's often considered is a baffle plate within the sump to help with oil surge and oil starvation.

is there anything available for the clio engines, even big winged sumps maybe?
or do these engines not require anything of this sort?

as a quick background incase people quote that its only required for trackday cars, mine purely is, it's not road legal and merely a trailer queen.
i just like the idea of covering a possible issue in advance rather than repairing something after a failure.

anyone know of anything, or have any input on this topic?

​cheers.

 

[MG cup]

Never heard of the them oil surging, cup racers run slicks and corner speeds were far higher than you'll achieve, their sealed engines used to last 1000's of track miles too.

BigAsh thinks he is having surge at the minute but with his luck its probably something terminal, he seem's to get every problem under the sun though, he would have no luck if it wasn't bad.

I'm not sure this will help surge but I think the oil pick up need's modifying as its been the cause of so many failures I have seen on here.

Another easy solution is 0.5-1 litre extra oil maybe, quite common on other cars to overfill for this reason.

 

[Kelv]

Aaron, if its not a known problem then i certainly wont pursue that idea.

i agree, the likes of Tony and Ash will certainly be cornering a lot harder than myself, and if they have not had the need to look into this, then its unlikely that im going to have the need for it either.
as said, its only from experince on other cars, that i thought it worth looking into while i have the chance, especially as the sump is coming off in a few days for the ARP rod bolts to be fitted.
again i agree, keeping the oil level on max or just a smidgen over to help conquer any issues, or atleast slimming the chance of an issue.

cheers for the reply buddy

 

[Chip-mk1]

No chance of big wings, the subframe is in the way.

I suggested gated baffles to James if he is concerned, his data logs from mallory certainly make it looks like there is an issue despite what you say that there cant be.

 

[Kelv]

Cheers Chip, assuming from your response that nothing is readily available as yet then.
maybe something to keep and eye on.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes I think its worth thinking about as James was only on road tyres when he was seeing low pressure at the hairpin at mallory too.

And I still think there is a good chance speedy's engine was killed by surge too.

 

[Kelv]

food for thought, and i wonder if this could have been an issue that added to the death of my engine.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Impossible to tell after the event without decent data logging TBH

 

[Kelv]

oh i know, i know its far to late to tell now, and the old parts have since been skipped.
it was just the thought in my head of 'what if' that was to blame.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Even though Ive got no evidence at all that its currently effecting my clios, im still tempted just for peace of mind.

Or I might fit an accusump.

 

[Coops Mk1]

Mallory is a nightmare for it, I would guess it would definitely be an issue round gerard's

 

[Chip-mk1]

Mallory is a nightmare for it, I would guess it would definitely be an issue round gerard's

Gerrards is certainly a killer if you can corner really hard, but James only had the issue at the hairpin.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

ALD are looking at doing baffled sumps. Give Andrew a shout, he's on here

 

[Tony Hunter]

Never seemed to have a problem with mine. I'm not saying it's not possible though, before you shoot me.

 

[Jaff.]

Forgive my probable ignorance but so long as you have easy access to the sump and are able to take it off easily enough, baffling a sump isn't that hard to do? Even easier if you can alu weld...

 

[Matt@codered]

oh i know, i know its far to late to tell now, and the old parts have since been skipped.
it was just the thought in my head of 'what if' that was to blame.

Not sure about that. The cams and head have no signs of starvation, ie blued cam, or pick up on the cam bearings.

 

[Kelv]

I did mean bottom end Matt, wrong choice of words saying the complete engine had been skipped, sorry.

 

[BIGASH]

I defiantly had a oil starvation issue at Mallory the low pressure went hand in hand with the G, just been through the datalogs from yesterday at Oulton and no such problem so can't see how its anything engine related to cause the low pressure. Just certain corners and the duration I suppose. I am still going to be doing a baffled sump for mine even if it only is a problem at Mallory. The cup racers used to spin bearings like they were going out of fashion from what i've heard so I don't see how oil starvation isn't an issue on these engines. Maybe only an issue on the stickiest of tyres and really pulling some decent G but still a risk IMO

 

[Kelv]

Fancy making 2 sumps James?

 

[MG cup]

Did they spin bearings anymore than a road Clio though?!? It's a flaw of the F4R irrelevant of use afaic.

I agree with you though, belts and braces, for the £10 it will cost you why not.

 

[BIGASH]

Fancy making 2 sumps James?

I'd be making 8 if I said yes to everyone who's asked haha

Let me see how I get on with it and i'll test it to check it works if so i'll let you know and I can either send you details of how I did it or i'm sure I can chuck a few more together. Main priority is it actually does the job so i'll get that sorted first

 

[BIGASH]

Did they spin bearings anymore than a road Clio though?!? It's a flaw of the F4R irrelevant of use afaic.

I agree with you though, belts and braces, for the £10 it will cost you why not.

I don't know mate I have no experience of these cars in road form.

Exactly, scrap bin at my mates place and get him to ally weld it together and job done

 

[steveboyslim]

I should have Porkie's sump modified with a baffle ready to fit the engine within the next couple of days.
I am also going to modify the oil pump to see if the hot oil pressure at idle can be improved.

Steve

 

[Kelv]

Nice one Steve,

i didn't know you were on here aswell.
Can you keep us up to speed please mate?

Cheers

 

[EVOgone]

Surge isn't an issue with a correctly working pump and std sump set up and oil levels. Hot oil pressure is the only recommendation with an oil pump mod.

 

[steveboyslim]

Surge isn't an issue with a correctly working pump and std sump set up and oil levels. Hot oil pressure is the only recommendation with an oil pump mod.

I have been given oil pressure data and other information that tells me there is a possible oil surge problem even with the correct and high oil level.
The company sorting Porkie's sump had a pattern for a baffle as they supplied an engine building company several years ago.
I hope you prove me wrong and do not have any engine failures, me I am not taking any chances.

Steve

 

[sprintcup]

If your spending £3K - £5k or more on a good engine build then a £150-00 belt and braces baffled sump, HP oil pump big wing sump etc is a no brainer, I'm sure Dan 519 or Fred posted a picture of one a while back when this was asked.
Regards Russ....

 

[Tony Hunter]

You should see the one on Freds wall of shame. That was made by a 'pro motorsport' company. Fkn mess, flappy bit of tin lol.

 

[EVOgone]

If your spending £3K - £5k or more on a good engine build then a £150-00 belt and braces baffled sump, HP oil pump big wing sump etc is a no brainer, I'm sure Dan 519 or Fred posted a picture of one a while back when this was asked.
Regards Russ....

All std with pump mod is all it needs, suggest there's other reasons for low oil pressure at idle and surge.

 

[McGherkin]

Freds wall of shame.

That is something I want to see pics of.

 

[steveboyslim]

All std with pump mod is all it needs, suggest there's other reasons for low oil pressure at idle and surge.

What pump mod ?
Upping the oil pressure will not help.
have you ever data logged the oil pressure on your engine ?
What other reasons are there for oil surge if the oil is at or abover the correct level mark (which has been check/measured) ?
Like I said I am not taking any chances, the sump on Porkie's engine is getting a baffle and the oil pump modifyed to try to improve hot oil pressure at idle

Steve

 

[ALD]

I'm looking into making them as soon as I get hold of a damaged bottom end cheap or free lol

ive made loads for Ford Cvh, Zetec's, vag 20v turbo's and others.

 

[EVOgone]

I have been given oil pressure data and other information that tells me there is a possible oil surge problem even with the correct and high oil level.
The company sorting Porkie's sump had a pattern for a baffle as they supplied an engine building company several years ago.
I hope you prove me wrong and do not have any engine failures, me I am not taking any chances.

Steve

years of competition have proven it to me.

oh and it has a stack pressure with real time high and low alerts and recall. Never an issue and mint bearing shells when refreshed.

 

[steveboyslim]

years of competition have proven it to me.

oh and it has a stack pressure with real time high and low alerts and recall. Never an issue and mint bearing shells when refreshed.

F4R or F7R ?
Have you got any maximum and minimum oil pressure data ?

Steve

 

[Meek_racing]

You should see the one on Freds wall of shame. That was made by a 'pro motorsport' company. Fkn mess, flappy bit of tin lol.

From what I've been told. The chap didn't want to pay full whack for a proper baffle kit so asked for something cheap to be made. The end result was indeed a thin sheet of metal with hinge and baffle plate, but the customer did ask for cheap flappage to do the job. Either way, it does look shocking. Not their normal line of work but it does have a good place on Freds wall

 

[Russ_16v]

I have no data, so I can only add in my experience, but in 14 years of tracking F7P's, F7R's and F4R's I have not had an issue with surge or bearing damage through 19+ Clio's, and I really don't go gentle on track.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I have no data, so I can only add in my experience, but in 14 years of tracking F7P's, F7R's and F4R's I have not had an issue with surge or bearing damage through 19+ Clio's, and I really don't go gentle on track.

If you arent on 2K of suspension in a very well prepped shell and the stickiest tyres the rules allow, then you are going gentle relative to people like James though still surely?

As all the oil cares about is the actual G-force generated while cornering, not how hard you are trying in an pretty average trackday car?

 

[mark123]

If there is an oil surge problem. Why didn't mk2 cup racers have baffled sumps?
​

 

[EVOgone]

If you arent on 2K of suspension in a very well prepped shell and the stickiest tyres the rules allow, then you are going gentle relative to people like James though still surely?

As all the oil cares about is the actual G-force generated while cornering, not how hard you are trying in an pretty average trackday car?

Well 4k suspension slicks (not list 1Bs) and a couple of championships. Still no issues with surge so don't think that's the best analogy.

In all seriousness there are so many factors but if engine healthy, oil pump good and right oil levels there should be an issue.

 

[Russ_16v]

If you arent on 2K of suspension in a very well prepped shell and the stickiest tyres the rules allow, then you are going gentle relative to people like James though still surely?

As all the oil cares about is the actual G-force generated while cornering, not how hard you are trying in an pretty average trackday car?

True mate, but didn't the Clio cup cars run no baffles? I am sure they didn't and I know Tony and Jay don't with no issues? There of course may be plenty of cars that have failed due to oil surge, but I cant ever recall of one