AST review from Oulton

[ForceIndia]

Stiffer rear springs not another option... mine doesnt feel much stiffer than H&rs on the lowest setting.

Stiffer rear springs wouldn't help the traction issues. As said earlier, the suspension designer I've spoken to believes that the spring rates are roughly 30% too stiff, and he's looking at suspension for hill climbs/sprints.

 

[broster@JAM-Sport]

you can do but they are not cheep and you can only get them from yozzasport

i spoke to bilstein 2 weeks ago when pricing up the pss kit for the clio and i was informed they are no longer available and the only kit offered is the pss, shame as even the b14 is as awesome kit which in my eyes is alot better than most coilover kits

 

[ben_p]

lol cant wait for DanR to see this.

 

[ForceIndia]

lol cant wait for DanR to see this.

 

[Fred@BTM]

i spoke to bilstein 2 weeks ago when pricing up the pss kit for the clio and i was informed they are no longer available and the only kit offered is the pss, shame as even the b14 is as awesome kit which in my eyes is alot better than most coilover kits

you need to know the right people my son

 

[badger5]

The ast's, are these spec 'd for full on track use or pseudo road/track day use with sticky track day rubber etc

those spring rates as run on road tyres?
std roll bars on the car?
what geometry were you running on the ast's?


thanks

 

[Fred@BTM]

standard ARB's, road tyres and the softer of the 2 spring options offered by AST

no idea on geo setup as i didn't do it, but it felt ok whatever it was, steering wheel was on the piss slightly, so whether warren had had a bump i don't know

 

[ForceIndia]

standard ARB's, road tyres and the softer of the 2 spring options offered by AST

no idea on geo setup as i didn't do it, but it felt ok whatever it was, steering wheel was on the piss slightly, so whether warren had had a bump i don't know

Was off when I picked it up, they're sorting it foc, just not had time to get over. I've got the set up at home, max camber front and rear (standard top mounts). Pretty similar to the Trophy set-up.

 

[Dan R]

note this was on a wet track

first things first, when fitting the brakes to warren's car the night before power station had installed the lower shock bolts the wrong way round, nothing major, but i'm a picky f**ker!

i had a sneaky go on the road and thought the ride was great, but when pushing on it was starting to understeer, and that was with the damping on the front end on min! (15clicks is max)

on track, not bad, again the whole day was done with the front end on min, the back end was great could've done with going a wee tad firmer though

the car just couldn't put any power down out of corners, track was slippery as hell anyway, but the front end was just too stiff for those conditions, i reckon with softer springs that setup would be spot on.

a car fitted with a softer suspension would've gone round much quicker IMO

i dread to think what that car is like with damping set to max all round!

i look forward to trying it out in the dry on track, but i'll have to wait a while

What a surprise youve put what uve put!! It was to be expected really lol

 

[ForceIndia]

What a surprise youve put what uve put!! It was to be expected really lol

How do you mean fella?

 

[Dan R]

How do you mean fella?

im not getting involved

 

[Fred@BTM]

you've lost me Dan! :S

 

[badger5]

whats the geo settings for a trophy?

 

[RichCup]

Camber: Front 0.3 -0.6 Rear: 1.4 - 1.6

Toe: Front: 1mm out Rear: 1mm in

Ride height: Front: 616/604mm to top of arch Rear: 634/610mm to top of arch

From readyforthetrack.co.uk​

 

[homer simpson]

i spoke to bilstein 2 weeks ago when pricing up the pss kit for the clio and i was informed they are no longer available and the only kit offered is the pss, shame as even the b14 is as awesome kit which in my eyes is alot better than most coilover kits

they do them but you have to go threw yozzasport as its there design and they are not cheep

 

[r8byb]

i'm running - 2 deg front and rear, slight toe out to improve turn in.

I disagree with the comment of H&Rs provide less understeer, i had them for 3 months and i drove them back to back around the same roads and the AST's are far less understeery for sure.

280lb front 250lb rear are the standard softer spring rates i believe

 

[badger5]

thanks for the info.- were those settings std trophy ones?

pss9's on my ibiza cupra when i had them tested were 280lb fronts 225lb rears
do you guys generally stick with springs/dampers or do you get into arb's as well?

 

[homer simpson]

white line do a rear anti roll bar for the trophy which if you un pin the dampers it works very well

 

[RichCup]

thanks for the info.- were those settings std trophy ones?

pss9's on my ibiza cupra when i had them tested were 280lb fronts 225lb rears
do you guys generally stick with springs/dampers or do you get into arb's as well?

Yeh standard settings. Not a lot of people change the arb's I don't think, just the bushes for powerflex items.

 

[badger5]

ok, thanks. interesting comparing my ibiza's handling and the clios. (clio far better out of the box in comparison)-ibiza is a racecar now.

clio clings on well in damp conditions. quite impressive

 

[r8byb]

I know of your racecar from combe Mr 5 thinking of switching to Clio's ? or just ASTs ?

 

[sideways danny]

^which is too hard IMO

some people might like it, but i didn't, i like clio's to have a soft front end and a stiff rear, but that suits my driving, it'll be different for other people

you also prefer an arse down stance IIRC (??), which isn't condusive to traction out of corners

FYI the stiffer spring option is noticably better for the track, and not worse, the softer stuff is for the road, and it does its job well. I've removed a couple of poor H&R setups and replaced with AST and the difference is night and day

 

[Fred@BTM]

no danny i set them up with the sills ever so slightly nose down, and i didn't setup this car, so don't start pointing the blame at me!

going stiffer round oulton park in that weather would've been suicide

i'm purely commenting on what i drove and my opinion on that, as i said they could be perfect, just not quite there

you don't like H&R's then that's your shout, but there's nothing poor about them!

 

[ForceIndia]

Tis amazing that some people think that a stiffer front end won't produce understeer in wet/damp conditions.
Not sure why people get so defensive, it's just suspension lol. I'm confident that the AST's will be better than the H&R's in the dry, but it makes sense that a slightly softer set up will be better for grip/traction in the damp. But thats my opinion, it's a very personal thing IMO.
No offence to some, but the guy I've been chatting to has been designing race suspension for 30 odd years, and having spoken to AST (in holland), if he says they are too stiff, I trust his opinion.

 

[Kam.]

does anyone know the actual spring rates?

I used to run 300Ib front coilovers / 200Ib Rear .. on a 205 track car and that was still perfectly fine in the wet. Biggest difference was the tyres. Yoko 048Rs and changing driving style for the conditions.

As for the settings on the dampers they do need to be set up at the softest point required to control the spring. Might have been worth experimenting a little.

What other chassis mods have been done to the car? roll cage? strut braces?

 

[homer simpson]

you also prefer an arse down stance IIRC (??), which isn't condusive to traction out of corners

FYI the stiffer spring option is noticably better for the track, and not worse, the softer stuff is for the road, and it does its job well. I've removed a couple of poor H&R setups and replaced with AST and the difference is night and day

danny i have seen and driven cars that fred has set up and apart from yoz's cup which had a full clio cup set up on the rear
all of them was slighty nose down and drove very well .

 

[ForceIndia]

does anyone know the actual spring rates?

I used to run 300Ib front coilovers / 200Ib Rear .. on a 205 track car and that was still perfectly fine in the wet. Biggest difference was the tyres. Yoko 048Rs and changing driving style for the conditions.

As for the settings on the dampers they do need to be set up at the softest point required to control the spring. Might have been worth experimenting a little.

What other chassis mods have been done to the car? roll cage? strut braces?

Car is otherwise standard, dampers were 0 clicks front, 4 rear. I'm going to see how it behave's on a dry track day, then go from there.

 

[badger5]

I know of your racecar from combe Mr 5 thinking of switching to Clio's ? or just ASTs ?

no, clio is just a road car. ibiza is the racer.
combe saloons in 2009 look out for a rapid yellow seat wooshing about.


i race on kw's race units, but have considered ast, as powerstation are local to me for rebuilds etc.

 

[badger5]

does anyone know the actual spring rates?

I used to run 300Ib front coilovers / 200Ib Rear .. on a 205 track car and that was still perfectly fine in the wet. Biggest difference was the tyres. Yoko 048Rs and changing driving style for the conditions.

As for the settings on the dampers they do need to be set up at the softest point required to control the spring. Might have been worth experimenting a little.

What other chassis mods have been done to the car? roll cage? strut braces?

one of the reasons i was asking if these ast's and spring rates quoted were full race setups or road going, with or without competition level grippy rubber or not.

whats the weight front/rear of a clio?

 

[ForceIndia]

one of the reasons i was asking if these ast's and spring rates quoted were full race setups or road going, with or without competition level grippy rubber or not.

whats the weight front/rear of a clio?

Not sure fella, the ph1 is lighter than the 182's. The spring rates (250/280) are the road rates, was using road tyres.

 

[sideways danny]

no danny i set them up with the sills ever so slightly nose down, and i didn't setup this car, so don't start pointing the blame at me!

going stiffer round oulton park in that weather would've been suicide

i'm purely commenting on what i drove and my opinion on that, as i said they could be perfect, just not quite there

you don't like H&R's then that's your shout, but there's nothing poor about them!

defensive lol

wasn't pointing any finger, and was refering to what i thought I remembered being your preference (hence the ??)

and i said a poor setup, not H&R are poor

edit: not arguing, constructive discussion would be a s**t load more helpful for those who havn't setup suspension before. Opinions on this stuff varies so wildly, there's no such thing as "right". A setup that worked fantastic at Llandow was too snappy for Snetterton, so i softend up the rear damping just enough to make the break away point less pronounced, much nicer on long fast corners

 

[r8byb]

You on the stiffer setup Danny ?

 

[sideways danny]

You on the stiffer setup Danny ?

Not yet. Ours were an early production version before a stiffer setup was spec'd. Changing a few things on the car over winter and the spring rates are one of them. Dont even know if we're changing the damping yet TBH

 

[r8byb]

Can you get your car to oversteer ? i can but only very minimal, currently running 1 click front 4 clicks rear.

Cheeers

 

[ForceIndia]

mine is on 4 F 4 R clicks wise and the turn in is immense wet or dry, very minimal understeer and progressive oversteer on call..

Can you get your car to oversteer ? i can but only very minimal, currently running 1 click front 4 clicks rear.

Cheeers

I'm really tempted to try H&R fronts with the AST rears.

 

[r8byb]

I personally just think you need to leave it as it is, in the dry there awesome setup is perfect IMO, in the wet any front wheel drive car will understeer

 

[sideways danny]

It's on R888s so it doesn't really slide except in the wet. Had it tri-podding round Llandow. Got the rears a lot firmer than you though. Max damping at Llandow, then softened it up by 5 clicks for Snetterton. Definitely needs stiffer springs for track work. The time attack car was easier to provoke into some oversteer but in a very controllable manner

 

[sideways danny]

I'm really tempted to try H&R fronts with the AST rears.

no damping adjustment though

I personally just think you need to leave it as it is, in the dry there awesome setup is perfect IMO, in the wet any front wheel drive car will understeer

agree

 

[Fred@BTM]

no damping adjustment is a good thing! LOL then at least you wouldn't have threads like this hahaha!

the PSS9 kit we created went from as soft as a standard car (if not softer) to as hard as a cup racer in 9 clicks, thats the point i'm trying to put across here, the range of adjustment built into the AST's needs to be greater (ie have the ability to go softer, but still retain its uber firm setup on max damping)

if you spend over £1K on suspension for it to be too hard or too soft etc etc for certain conditions then its annoying to say the least!

who and how were the AST tested is what i'd like to know, maybe its my driving style causing the problems here, who knows LOL!

i REALLY want these AST's to be perfect all rounders, i already know they'll be very good in the dry, i'm just slightly disapointed with their wet performance. I'm not slagging them off just highlighting my experience with them thus far, once i've driven them in the dry i'll report back

 

[sideways danny]

no damping adjustment is a good thing!

ROFL. Maybe for uber DIY, not for going it properly. I dont think they're over damped, I think the road kit is a little under sprung for the track. would IMO be more like what you're trying to achieve. I prefer the back to be stiffer too so I know what you mean with regard to that.

The fact this setup is slightly toe out (think i read that earlier in the thread) probably makes it less like how you prefer too. Better for stability though