Bah - Still cutting out

[Scutch]

I didn't realise the front lambda was directly infront of the cat/decat? I thought it was further up?

Out of interest, why when I disconnected my rear lambda would the front lambda fail to work?

 

[Joey_Essex]

Out of interest, why when I disconnected my rear lambda would the front lambda fail to work?

Shouldnt make any difference if you remove bank 2, bank 2 just read the emissions after the cat! I reckon bank 1 (pre cat) is nackered! you got someone elses you can borrow?


apparently its a common problem on a 182 due to the manifold set up, thats what ive been told. What Engine Dynamics have told me is that under cold conditions this wouldnt cause the car to stall, however once warmed up it could cause issues, over fuling and stalling. Well im sure that what he said.

The other potential issue that he said was that it could be related to the Crank Timing Sensor, didnt explain the details as of why, but these could be your issues

 

[Scutch]

Shouldnt make any difference if you remove bank 2, bank 2 just read the emissions after the cat! I reckon bank 1 (pre cat) is nackered! you got someone elses you can borrow?

Check out the live diagnostics image I posted on page 5. The pre-cat lambda is working as it should. Well, I say that - it's certainly giving off readings and when I rev the car it's voltage is definitely increasing/decreasing. I will swap lambdas over later.

 

[Joey_Essex]

Check out the live diagnostics image I posted on page 5. The pre-cat lambda is working as it should. Well, I say that - it's certainly giving off readings and when I rev the car it's voltage is definitely increasing/decreasing. I will swap lambdas over later.

Yer i could see that, just wonder if there giving off the wrong readings, not techinical enough to answer that!

Oh and if the sensor hasnt been removed for a while, might need some elbow grease on it... had that problem myself this weekend! just dont snap it!

 

[Scutch]

Yer i could see that, just wonder if there giving off the wrong readings, not techinical enough to answer that!

Oh and if the sensor hasnt been removed for a while, might need some elbow grease on it... had that problem myself this weekend! just dont snap it!

Got plenty of WD40 Only problem is I don't have axle stands, just a trolley jack. Not sure if it's wise lifting the car on just that to work under.

 

[Joey_Essex]

Got plenty of WD40 Only problem is I don't have axle stands, just a trolley jack. Not sure if it's wise lifting the car on just that to work under.

As long as your on a flat surface and not under there for mega long your be ok... just make sure you get out from underneath every so offten and check hight ect... oviously not the safest of ways, but make do with what you have lol

or altnativly get to tool station or argos and get some cheap ones for 20quid, there do the job!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Got plenty of WD40 Only problem is I don't have axle stands, just a trolley jack. Not sure if it's wise lifting the car on just that to work under.

I hate being under a car on just a jack, have heard of too many people killed that way, what I do though if I dont have axle stands handy is just chuck a wheel under the sill or similar, anything that will stop it crushing you if it drops.

 

[Scutch]

I hate being under a car on just a jack, have heard of too many people killed that way, what I do though if I dont have axle stands handy is just chuck a wheel under the sill or similar, anything that will stop it crushing you if it drops.

Indeed. The car is definitely low enough to do serious damage. I may actually just take it to the garage after work and ask them to do a lambda exchange front to back.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Lambda sensor certainly has enough influence to make the car cut out, and the fact you are saying it only does it when warm would back that up, as the lambda sensor isnt used when cool, it only enters closed loop control after the water temp crosses a particular threshold.

 

[Joey_Essex]

Lambda sensor certainly has enough influence to make the car cut out, and the fact you are saying it only does it when warm would back that up, as the lambda sensor isnt used when cool, it only enters closed loop control after the water temp crosses a particular threshold.

Could be a simple fix... and not mega expensive then?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Could be a simple fix... and not mega expensive then?

Well if it is just that then yes, but seems unlikely that it would have happened to fail just as they happened to do the recent work on it, and nothing they did is likely to have broken it, so would be a big co-incidence.

 

[Joey_Essex]

Well if it is just that then yes, but seems unlikely that it would have happened to fail just as they happened to do the recent work on it, and nothing they did is likely to have broken it, so would be a big co-incidence.

Yep fully agree on that. Unless it was allready on its way out and as you said all happened at the same time.

Scutch - fingers crossed for you thats all it is, let us know if it sorts it later on!

 

[Scutch]

Could be a simple fix... and not mega expensive then?

It shouldn't really be mega expensive to fix the issue anyway, IMO. I know a throttle body new can be £80+, but I'm not expecting it to be anything more. All the little sensors etc. are basic and around £20 ish too. It's the trial and error that's the money pit.

I agree Chip, the lambda issue is very odd. Like when I disconnected the rear and the front stopped giving readings via the diagnostics live report. That didn't make sense to me. Or should I have pulled the lambda from the decat and not just unclipped it from the ECU loom?

I'm not sure how they could have f*cked up the lambda fitting in the decat. I still have the original cat if needbe so I can even go back to that to test.

 

[Joey_Essex]

It shouldn't really be mega expensive to fix the issue anyway, IMO. I know a throttle body new can be £80+, but I'm not expecting it to be anything more. All the little sensors etc. are basic and around £20 ish too. It's the trial and error that's the money pit.

I agree Chip, the lambda issue is very odd. Like when I disconnected the rear and the front stopped giving readings via the diagnostics live report. That didn't make sense to me. Or should I have pulled the lambda from the decat and not just unclipped it from the ECU loom?

If you take from the Loom it wont give a reading, if you pull out, will still give a reading. If you disconect, your get no reading and normally an engine mgnt light if not mapped!

 

[Joey_Essex]

I'm not sure how they could have f*cked up the lambda fitting in the decat. I still have the original cat if needbe so I can even go back to that to test.

They could have quickly simply snapped the end of the lamba... its allways possiable!

 

[Scutch]

If you take from the Loom it wont give a reading, if you pull out, will still give a reading. If you disconect, your get no reading and normally an engine mgnt light if not mapped!

Right, so on that basis, the pre and post-cat lambda's aren't in a sequence event? So removing or disconnecting the post-cat lambda should not have any bearing on the reading the pre-cat lambda gives off. Yet on mine when I disconnect, the pre-cat lambda doesn't even register a reading anymore.

 

[Joey_Essex]

Right, so on that basis, the pre and post-cat lambda's aren't in a sequence event? So removing or disconnecting the post-cat lambda should not have any bearing on the reading the pre-cat lambda gives off. Yet on mine when I disconnect, the pre-cat lambda doesn't even register a reading anymore.

Not tech enought to know the answer... but presuably they could be linked together... Chip?

 

[Scutch]

Again, image of pre-cat and post-cat lambda in operation:

Rear doing nothing, which I now know is correct as they run at a constant .5v. Front one seems to be working fine (if fine is that sort of graph). When I disconnect the post-cat lambda, both run at .5v and don't move regardless of how I rev the car.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Right, so on that basis, the pre and post-cat lambda's aren't in a sequence event? So removing or disconnecting the post-cat lambda should not have any bearing on the reading the pre-cat lambda gives off. Yet on mine when I disconnect, the pre-cat lambda doesn't even register a reading anymore.

I havent ever looked into how the standard ecu fault responses work with regards to one being totally unplugged so I am afraid I cant answer that. its just not something I have ever felt the need to look into as there is no logical reason for doing so TBH.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Again, image of pre-cat and post-cat lambda in operation:

Rear doing nothing, which I now know is correct as they run at a constant .5v. Front one seems to be working fine (if fine is that sort of graph). When I disconnect the post-cat lambda, both run at .5v and don't move regardless of how I rev the car.

If the front lambda sensor is way out of calibration, it would still LOOK like its wokring, but the AFRs would be skewed by its results.

Stick a wideband up it and see what the fuelling is really doing and how that compares to what the lambda sensor thinks.

 

[Scutch]

No worries mate. If I had half your knowledge on motors I'd be dangerous. Your input is all very much appreciated. Same goes for everyone else.

As said, it'll be a bit of a pisser once this is rectified, as it's all a learning experience which is good.

 

[Scutch]

If the front lambda sensor is way out of calibration, it would still LOOK like its wokring, but the AFRs would be skewed by its results.

Well that's very interesting.

 

[Jay_G]

Question, are the lambda's individually earthed? Only reason I ask, my old fiesta used to hesitate and bunny hop when hot, took the earth off (there earthed to the manifold cover), realised I didn't have the right socket, put the earth back on and it worked.

Have you got anyone near by who can swap lambda's with you for couple of hours?

 

[Scutch]

What I'm tempted to do this afternoon is just take the lambda's out and put the rear one in the pre-cat position and just leave the post-cat blanked off. So I'll have a lambda spare - the one from the pre-cat that I've taken out.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you unplug both the lamdas and drive it around, does it still cut out?

 

[Scutch]

If you unplug both the lamdas and drive it around, does it still cut out?

TBH mate, I didn't even realise I could do that. If the car does cut out with them both removed, that will confirm that the lambda's aren't the issue, yes?

 

[Chip-mk1]

TBH mate, I didn't even realise I could do that. If the car does cut out with them both removed, that will confirm that the lambda's aren't the issue, yes?

If it doesnt cut out it would prove more than if it does, worth a try as it costs you nothing to do.

 

[Scutch]

Agreed. What are the downsides of running the car with no lambda sensors, even in the short term? Got to be a fuel mixture issue?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Agreed. What are the downsides of running the car with no lambda sensors, even in the short term? Got to be a fuel mixture issue?

It means you will drop back to open loop fuelling and stay there, wont get quite as good economy, and if you drove it like that for long it could damage the cat if you had one.
As you dont have a cat, I can see no harm in it at all other than economy, but I still wouldnt recommend it long term.

 

[Scutch]

Of course. I wouldn't drive it without at least one lambda anyway, but at least if it doesn't cut out I'll know a bit more. I think.

 

[Rob]

So you've swapped the lambda's over yes? And tried just totally unplugging one?

 

[Scutch]

So you've swapped the lambda's over yes? And tried just totally unplugging one?

Not yet Rob. What I've done is unclipped the rear lambda from the ECU loom. This rendered the front lambda ineffective, as it didn't give any readouts at all. I couldn't work out why this was. In hindsight I should have taken the car out with it in this state but instead I just plugged the rear one back in to the wiring housing.

Tonight I will remove both lambda's and see how that goes.

 

[Dan519]

Not yet Rob. What I've done is unclipped the rear lambda from the ECU loom. This rendered the front lambda ineffective, as it didn't give any readouts at all. I couldn't work out why this was. In hindsight I should have taken the car out with it in this state but instead I just plugged the rear one back in to the wiring housing.

Tonight I will remove both lambda's and see how that goes.

I think you have a loom issue, they should be totally isolated

 

[Ricardos]

And you've put both sensors in the decat and tried that? Like you say it's the process of elimination and the time doing it that's the killer

 

[Scutch]

I think you have a loom issue, they should be totally isolated

I didn't take a snapshot of the lambda's on the RSTuner live map, but yeah, when I disconnected the rear and started the car, both the front and rear were showing as running at .5v IIRC. Yet with the rear connected up again, the front worked fine again, as the graph on the previous page shows.

And you've put both sensors in the decat and tried that? Like you say it's the process of elimination and the time doing it that's the killer

Both lambda's are plugged into the decat, front and back, obviously. The only thing I've done since I got the car back with the lambda's in mind, is removed the clip connecting the rear (post-cat) lambda to the ECU loom. That's all. I haven't touched the front lambda yet. As I'm working my way through things, that's next to do. I should be getting a coil pack to test tomorrow, along with a MAP sensor and a throttle body. If the lambda issue is the problem, I can dismiss the other things. But if not, I'm just going through the list.

 

[kendz]

This sounds similar to an issue I had with my 182. Turned out to be faulty MAP sensor, Birchdown diagnosed this at the time on a live diagnostics check. Car was overfueling causing it to cut out unless I held the revs when stopping at junctions, exhaust sooted up, fuel economy was non existant and the engine was hesitant at low revs. I believe the sensor was sending a false reading (high air pressure) and therefore the car was overfueling.

 

[Scutch]

Well I'm also getting a MAP sensor tomorrow. Sounds like things are coming together. Or they better be.

 

[Joey_Essex]

Well I'm also getting a MAP sensor tomorrow. Sounds like things are coming together. Or they better be.

The rate your going with parts, your not far off a new engine

 

[Scutch]

The rate your going with parts, your not far off a new engine

Actually true. By the end of the week;

Cylinder head, belts, pulleys, dephaser, tappets, cams, throttle body, IAT sensor, MAP sensor, plugs, leads, coil pack, exhaust system, V6 airbox...

If it's still cutting out it's getting it's head kicked in.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Map sensor should be easy enough to spot, as with the engine not running it should read atmospheric, 1000mbar ish, normally if they go out of calibration it effects them there as well.