BBPT Turbo 16v Update & Nick Reads 16v!

[Glennclio16v]

Well i took a trip down BBPT on Saturday where i saw somethings that both pleased me and upset me!!

Firstly i saw the clio 16v turbo again which is now finished and is running 315bhp on BBPTs RR!!!

Info packs on the turbo conversion and all costs are being prepared by the wonderful workers at BBPT as i type and should sooon be available via their website!

http://www.bbperformancetuning.co.ukwww.bbperformancetuning.co.uk

Secondly i saw Nick Reads 16v parked in their car park...where i was informed that something had gone pop! Sorry to hear that Nick and hope you get it back stronger and better than before!

 

[night.icon]

but the question on everyones mind is who will be the 1st member to take the plunge and take the conversion ????

 

[Ben j]

ive heard pop is a light way to put it....

 

[night.icon]

u could put it like that herd the bang from out side bloody loud and when i saw under the bonnet it explained why the bang was so loud !!!

 

[pete bann]

315BHP!!!!!!!! wow, cant wait to see the price for the conversion..........

pete

 

[night.icon]

they told me around £4500 + Vat and the same again for insurance

 

[pete bann]

holy crap thats a lot of dosh, didnt realise that it would be that much, u can get a modded sapph cossie for that money.

good luck to the first person that gets it done!

 

[aaronc]

so total £9000 - u having a laugh!! They gotta be kidding!

 

[night.icon]

was only joking about the insurance

but from what they said its not just a bolt on turbo its a total rebuild low comp pistions etc well worth the money if u want that ultimate clio

 

[Rob_johnst69]

yea if i had a 16v that would be a must

 

[Ben j]

with the amount ive already spent this year i might as well get that next year!

 

[Nick Read]

yeah it was a bit of a bang. Ive changed my mind about the way forward anyway. If the engine is in real bad shape (it was a *big* bang) once they get the head off and have a look, the plan is:

1.8 HP Stage 2 head with Piper 270s swapped for wilder 285 duration road/rally cams

2.0 F7R bottom end

Everything lightened and balanced

Higher compression forged pistons

Unichip management

Inlet manifold converted to direct port nitrous injection with 4 injectors

or maybe a Weber Alpha throttle body system and then that takes care of the engine management as well rather than needing a Unichip.

One way or the other it would be nice to see a solid 180bhp even off gas. Itll probably be just a blown head gasket or something so I wont be able to justify a rebuild!

 

[Captain Slarty]

it musta bin the ram air dood.. or, your competition mixture meter was telling ya porkies lmao !!!...

 

[specialK]

Slarty - one of these days somebody is guaranteed to make you laugh your ar5e off on the other side of your face - idiot!

 

[Ben j]

nick, how much money do u teachers get paid? or have u married a millionaire?

 

[BenR]

Kis.....its called sarcasm...........(and so this BTW) haha

nick, why not go for a stage 9 head, surely it will give more power than a lowly stage 2?! (again sarcasm)

 

[Nick Read]

Ben - thats if I get a loan mate...otherwise I can barely afford the head-gasket!

Ben, Kathys right, after a while so-called sarcasm just gets to be tiresome when its trying to take the piss the whole time, droning on about the same thing. Thats not sarcasm, its just worthless, boring comment. Especially when its clear from the sarcasm that he doesnt know what hes talking about - if he did he would have put a helpful, technical explanation as to why what happened happened. Seems like the all-knowing Slarty doesnt actually know and covers it by trying to wind me up. Why? Whats the point?

Anyway, Ben, if you got some advice, then give it! I know you know your stuff, so get serious and say what you think, if I was to do a proper rebuild for a strong powerful engine, still normally aspirated though, what parts should I be looking for? As Ive said on other threads somewhere, this is something that I *dont* know a lot about, but unlike some people, Im happy to admit it, and ask if theres something I want to learn. So have a look over there, I think I put it on the mods forum, and see what you think.

 

[Dave Hester]

Just wandering what everyone out there would be prepared to pay for a turbo conversion for there 16v/willy £4500 does seem a little high. £3000 or less would be a bit more justifiable



Jim

 

[Pysco]

Nick,

Go for a rebuild with forged internals, you can get the pitons from Omega and the Conrods form Arrows. Then get a 1.9 diesel crank, balanced, knife edged and tuftrided, ARP bolts, solid lifters, 45mm TBs, wild cams, lightened flywheel and a fully worked big valve head. Should see 200+bhp and could have a redline of 8500-9000. Then add 150bhp of NOS(with forged pistons itll take it easy), 350bhp!!!! Dunno if the gearbox would like it though.

 

[specialK]

Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 12 November 2002


Kis.....its called sarcasm...........(and so this BTW) haha

nick, why not go for a stage 9 head, surely it will give more power than a lowly stage 2?! (again sarcasm)

Ben - It may be sarcasm but whatever it is it isnt necessary to come on here and laugh at someone elses misfortune.

The dictionary says this about sarcasm:

sarcasm
noun
(the use of) remarks which clearly mean the opposite of what they say, and which are made in order to hurt someones feelings or to criticize something in an amusing way

 

[Nick Read]

Cheers Simon, thats the kind of advice Im looking for. Well anyway BB have had the head and sump off today and theres good news and bad news. The good news is that its not the head gasket. The bad news is that instead of the head gasket blowing, Ive cracked all four pistons. The rest of the bottom end seems ok though and the head is fine. So now I gotta seriously think what to do about rebuilding this lump. Im thinking maybe Ill have a go at building it myself, it cant be that difficult on the bench can it? Ive got a Haynes, Ive got plenty of tools and now thanks to night.icon it looks like theres a workshop that we can use. Now its down to finding the money.

Ive been thinking about what I want from this engine and basically it comes down to this - I do quarter mile it and I like to drive fast, but I also use it as my everyday car as well. So I think 285 cams that I can still run with hydraulic lifters will be as wild as I want to go, because I still want flexibility - an 8500 rpm lump is nice but you lose the torque at the bottom and will really have to keep it on the boil all the time. The lightened flywheel Ive already got.

So it comes down to this - now I know all four pistons will need replacing anyway, do I use my existing bottom end and rebuild it with a worked-on 1.9 crank and forged Williams pistons to get the 2.0 capacity? But then havent I got to machine some of the inside of the block or something? Or do I find a 2.0 bottom end and then go from there? I can definitely get hold of a bare F7R bottom, no pistons or rods, no sump, only the crank. For fifty quid Id say yes but the scrappies want £350 for it which aint good value in my book!

 

[BenR]

ok, sorry peeps, not trying to stir the mud.

anyway, Nick, i have replied to what i think was the cause of the spitback.....

And as for uprating the engine......you CAN go for what Si has listed and it would end up in basically the ULTIMATE F7 motor...no doubt. But it does cost alot....

alternatively....first thing i would do is junk the inlet manifold as it crap. Keep it 1.8 (i like high RPM) if you dont go for 2ltr but i dont know just how good a diesel crank is really..and 100% more rpm is alot to take. A nice set of TBs and suitable management wil go along way to solving all running problems, i cant stress just how valuable it is on a tunned motor. The, the basic lightning and balancing of the short motor wil go a long way to handling the power increase. then a nice set of cams that wil see then come-on at about 4000-4500 rpm will give a superb feeling of satisfaction even if town driving is a abismal.....but i can live with it.

Then there is the head, which i consider to be the most important factor to getting the power you want. Decide what you want and get it made to suit. I would deffo go with the 32mm willy valves as its a good base. Then when it comes to porting, get the person to supply flowbench results if your purchsing from a business which deals with alot of heads. ANd dont do to the average garage, get somebody kow knows how a port should look like depending on what you want, max power you want, head type, induction type etc etc....it not an easy thing to come up with.

So, a decent head, lumpy cams, TBs, management, blueprinted bottom end an exhaust that WORKS and anything else needed to cope, will see you getting close to 100bhp/ltr which is about as hard as you need for a rd car..above that and it becomes a handful and highly expensive......

 

[BenR]

oh, cracked pistons.....ergh.....

its gonna get a little expensive now....

forged items are HIGHY expensive!!!! and i mean they make you cringe. Items for my X-flow are £125 each!!!!! i did faint yes.

i would go with a willy bottom if you can find it, itll be cheaper and easier in the long run faffing about with the 1.8 means you need to take a whole load out, do work then put it all back......well, same on teh 2ltr bottom end if you want to get it all balanced and toughned.

Best of luck mate.....dont think too much, just get stuck in and then you cant worry about the cost as you will HAVE to pay to get it on the road....

 

[Nick Read]

OK cheers Ben, that sounds like good advice. The throttle body thing is a definite plan but its a big step to do the whole lot in one go as well as rebuilding the engine. The TB conversion was always something I thought of doing in my spare time, something I wouldnt mind having a crack at myself rather than getting a garage to do it.

I think now Ive really knackered my F7P, this is an ideal opportunity to go 2.0. The only thing that was stopping me was the thought of taking the engine out or taking it apart. Well it looks like theres no way to avoid that now so I might as well rebuild it how I want it. So is the 1.9 diesel crank not the same as the Williams/Megane F7R crank? What does it mean when you say a short motor? Ive heard that term before when talking about engines, is it just the bottom end minus all the moving parts or ancillaries?

Im almost certain that I want a pair of billet 285 cams, a bit wilder than a reground 270 spec which is what I run at the moment (actually its more like a 260 duration)- Ill probably get a right lumpy idle, but nothing that would be too nasty to drive around town. I wouldnt have thought that kind of a grind would be so lairy it wouldnt even idle. My head has already worked by Hill Power and I dont really want to have it reworked again or junked and another head worked on.

So what would be the cost of these various parts that I might need for a rebuild:

Forged 2.0 pistons

Stronger con rods

Williams crank

What is involved in doing a big valve job on the head though? Is it just a case of taking the 30mm out and putting the 32mm in, do the valve seats need to be recut?

Lastly I know Prima always used to do the 2.0 conversions. You can get a set of 2.1 pistons from them for £600. Now what is involved in this conversion I wonder? Would it be a rebore or just somehow attaining a longer stroke?

 

[BenR]

the 2.1 conversion would mean that it had an increased bore to go with the std willy stroke from eihter the willy or diesel crank. Im not sure if theya re teh same, but you can check with part number from renault i think......aint they doin a willy sale for part at the mo?

anyway, itll probably be about 2060cc rahter than a true 2100cc unless the casting is thick enough...which ive got no clue about.

Putting in larger valves means new guides as matter of course and machining of seats to fir teh larger valves. If the head is having work done you might as well get some more porting to it...that is unless if Nick has really reached its limits....but i have no idea to the extent of his flowing....a pic would really really help when its off.

The beauty of TBs and full management is that you can usually get around the lump idle you would get on carbs by mapping for stall etc. Fitting of TBs is easy, and im sure your capable of the new loom to fit as its basically hooking up sensors. But mapping is another course. Itll probalby have a map that will allow you to get the car running, and you could try get soem of the basics sorted so itll be less time on the rollers. But wothout a RR you wont be able to map for anythig correctly.

Oh, a short motor is just the haed an anciliaries off the block....its usually got all the crank, rods, pistons (cam if its pushrod) in it....waiting to be slapped in.

as for prices, you will need ot ask Si as i know hes done a hell of a lot of research on the 2ltr parts....he can tell you the rod prices from arrows (about £200 if i remember) and about £150 each piston i think....or thereabouts.

 

[yogi]

if you need a hand with anything i.e removal stripping rebuild etc etc just give me a bell also any tools you need(special tools etc not just the norm) if i aint got it i know a man that will you have me number bell me if ya need a hand or something

 

[Nick Read]

Thanks Ben - 2.1 is definitely out the window then, so the question is, is the benefit of 32mm valves worth the extra time/expense of new guides, new valves, cutting the seats etc? All things being equal what is the difference between the 32 and 30mm-valve heads? They would both have 150hp but what is the difference in torque and where does it happen? It seems the only difference between the Megane F7R and the Williams F7R is that the Willy has the bigger valves, correct?

Chris - I may need to take you up on that mate. Johns just rung me up and we can use Clares garage as a workshop I think then we just need to get hold of an engine hoist. I have most normal tools but there must be some specialist engine builders tools that I dont have, so you will be just the man for that kind of thing. One way or the other , its gonna be a mission to get the mean machine back on the road. But hopefully when it comes out finished, itll be meaner than when it went in.

 

[steve a]

Nick hill did not recomend the 2.1 conversion said its better to stick with the 2.0. If i where you I would go 2.0 bottom end get the crank and con rods lightened and balanced, (forged pistons if you can afford it) keep the head as is then go for the throttle bodys should easily see 180-190bhp with that set up.

Best bet is to talk it all over with Nick Hill after all I doubt theres anything he doesnt know about these engines and I bet hes seen it all before.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Nick,

Sorry to hear this, but just think, youll be able to do things how exactly how you want them...scary for scoobies eh?!

Dont worry youll have the old beast back on the 1/4 mile in no time.

Good luck, (hope you win the lottery!), if you need anyone to search out parts, give me a list & Ill see what I can find. I hate paying more than I have too and I dont like to see people getting ripped off, so anything I can do to help, let me know.

 

[Louise]

Turbo conversions are expensive. I know to turbo the engine of my 2.0 zetec Fiesta is around the £4000-£5000 mark

 

[N.D.Hill]

Nick If you want give me a ring have some 2.0l parts second hand . Also have a pair of race cams and solid lifters i can sell you.

 

[Pysco]

Nick,

Like Ben says the forged parts are HIGHLY expensive, the Williams pistons are £150+VAT each and the rods are £155+VAT each, only really worth it if you want a super high reving motor.

My plan was to build an ultimate F7R engine, forged internals, fully worked crank, race cams, fully worked head, etc, etc. But the costs are just stupid and after doing a lot of resurch I dont think they justify the gains also me and a friend are going to have a go at building a Lotus 7 replica with a 2.0l Astra GTE lump, so Ill get my racing/speed kicks out of that.

Getting bigger inlet valves are deffo worth it though, inlet valves have a huge effect on power output, 32mm would give an improvement, but Im currently looking into whether the 35mm F4R valves can be made to fit with custom guides and working.

So my current plan is to build a 2.0l lump thats got the best of both worlds, the extra low down torque, but still putting out over 200bhp and then 100bhp of NOS on top

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by Louise on 14 November 2002

Turbo conversions are expensive. I know to turbo the engine of my 2.0 zetec Fiesta is around the £4000-£5000 mark

Did you use the CVH head on your Zetec block?

a turbo ZVH....lovely.....

 

[BenR]

OH SI......sorry to hear that mate, it would of been fab....

but a 7 rep...ace man!

you gonna use a westy or chaterham chassis?

oh, and make sure the XE lump is one of the Coscast items as youll get better build quality and power out the box.........most og the older astras have them....but look for the logo...haha

and the diff between 30 & 32mm......about 30bhp when MAXED out to the tits.

 

[Pysco]

Ben,

Niether mate, doing a Locost as par Ron Champions book. Me and a mate of mine who works at a metal fabricators are doing the chassis and engine/drivetrain. Should be able to source most of the steel for next to nowt, seamless tubing is gonna be a problem though, if anyones got a cheap soucre of CDS tubing let me know please. Another mate is doing the bodywork, its gonna look more like the new XTR2 than a 7.

Yeah we wanna get one of the earlyer XE lumps, keeping it as standard apart from fitting 45 DCOEs, should be good for 350bhp/ton though. Got a long term plan to upgrade to IRS suspesnion from live axle and use rose joints all round. Then stick in an XR4x4 drivetrain and cossie turbo lump.

 

[BenR]

but live axles are more fun! haha

and done get 4WD...ergh, handling is poo on track....unless there is a high rear power bias....like 20/80.

oh, and you know you need a ported head and some cams in sucha light car....man, keep me updated!

 

[Pysco]

Yeah, but 4WD equals muchos grandos amounts of acceleration. Dunno, depends if we decided to keep it as a track car, or a 1/4mile nutter, either way your right, the engine would need some head work and cams, you volentering? And a quick dollop of NOS too, 600bhp/ton anyone?

 

[Nick Read]

Good good good Ive got some ideas now. Budget has had to come right down so Ill have to keep it simple. The only reason I was thinking of forged pistons was cos I dont want to crack them again! Anyway Renault reckon £78+VAT each new Willy piston so thats £370 straight off. They want something mental like £435 for the Willy crank. Oh and you might be interested to know they can do you an exchange Willy engine for four and a half grand...

Been doing the scrappies today and found 3 Megane engines, supposedly 2.0 but I think theyre the new ones, they got all kind of weird plastic stuff all over them and some strange black box over the exhaust manifold? I dont know what thats all about but it doesnt look like any F7 Ive seen before. Theyre a decent-ish price, £400 for the whole lump including the starter. But just not right I dont think.

Got that bare block still to fall back on with only the crank and no rods or pistons, for £350. Please someone tell me Im not going mad thinking that that is a rip off? Looks like I can get the 285 cams for under £500 which might still be too much though.

Nick - Ill give you a ring tomorrow and find out about these parts you have, cheers.

Scooby, nice to hear from you again mate, hows things nowadays?

 

[Rob_johnst69]

Nick

Why dont be the first person to go for the turbo conversion. I mean it inculdes a rebuild with all forged pistons etc. that way you have you engine rebuilt stornger and a lovelp dump valve hissing away.

Mind you that is expensive..

 

[Ben H]

Nick - later Megane 2.0s come with the IDE 140bhp 2.0 16v engine: not that closely related to the F7R as far as I know.