Clio 197 on aftermarket managment content...

[Mike_182]

But it's not exactly is it. For varying situations on the same car, you may need one, two, maybe even three maps! For example, boosted cars with electronic actuation can run differing levels of boost, running different ignition timings, so as not to have too much power so as to ruin traction on a gravel stage, whereas on a 'mac stage it may run full power.

As far as your run of the mill toy 2litre Clio on the road counts, yes, one map may be more than plenty, however to say that you only need one map as a sweeping statement is very naive!

 

[sideways danny]

so what if you run a different boost level? with a map sensor that would just mean the ECU looks at a different load point in the fuel and ignition maps.

lot of bullshit around about multiple maps

 

[Mike_182]

I'll let the chaps that race their S2 know that they're wrong then.

 

[stan*]

But it's not exactly is it. For varying situations on the same car, you may need one, two, maybe even three maps! For example, boosted cars with electronic actuation can run differing levels of boost, running different ignition timings, so as not to have too much power so as to ruin traction on a gravel stage, whereas on a 'mac stage it may run full power.

As far as your run of the mill toy 2litre Clio on the road counts, yes, one map may be more than plenty, however to say that you only need one map as a sweeping statement is very naive!

"boost" is only a form of load...various levels of it will require various fuelling requirments/ign requirments. This can all be achieved on one map....as you are just calibrating different load/rpm sites.
This certainly isnt what "multiple maps" are about.

A single rpm/load event requires a specific (within a small range albeit) ign value and specific fuelling value for maximum output or economy.

Hence, its either mapped correctly or its not.

 

[stan*]

I'll let the chaps that race their S2 know that they're wrong then.

Its more likely youve interpreted them wrong tbh.

 

[Mike_182]

Obviously so. Tell me then, with only one map, how it knows that on a given stage the driver only wants it to generate a fixed amount of boost, reducing maximum power? It's not a case of them wanting it to be mapped according to the boost it's producing/IM pressure, it's a case of wanting it to not produce the 800+bhp that it can do all of the time, as 800bhp makes wheels spin on gravel.

 

[stan*]

What your saying about multiple maps and traction arent wrong, but being anal, this isnt mapping as in calibration, as in what was being discussed here.
In gear boost limits etc are data stored within a "map file", but this is outside the fuelling/ign maps/tables.

If that makes sense...

 

[Mike_182]

Right, ok. So in short I'm right, however this isn't quite the same thing in that what's being referred to - the fuelling/ignition/load, rather than the limits placed outside of that map but stored in it which is where my scenario is based?

 

[mini-valver]

Mike, STFU.

 

[sideways danny]

Mike, the ignition and fueling at a single load point are either right, or not. If you make a change to boost (for example) then you may not see that load point, but the fact it's right, IF it's seen doesn't change

 

[Mike_182]

No - it's a valid question/point and an area I have little understanding, which conflicted with the information in the thread!

If you don't like discussion, apply to be a mod.

 

[Tom@JMS]

however to say that you only need one map as a sweeping statement is very naive!

Not really - we're discussing the application within a road going car, not a competition car with wet maps etc etc.

 

[stan*]

Nah in short your wrong pal, i was just trying to be nice and soften the blow---nuff said.

You made some comment like "mapping the hell out of"....that kinda says that there are various stages of mapping, or levels of mapping? this isnt the case....

as said "its either mapped right or its not".

 

[Mike_182]

Mike, the ignition and fueling at a single load point are either right, or not. If you make a change to boost (for example) then you may not see that load point, but the fact it's right, IF it's seen doesn't change

Right, that's cleared it up I think - basically I'm referring to bits which are stored in an ECU 'flash' rather than the actual map, correct?

 

[sideways danny]

no

 

[mini-valver]

What you're refering to is traction control.

 

[Mike_182]

as said "its either mapped right or its not".

Again though it's harsh to say something as sweeping as that, as Renault's map is 'right', however it's 'wrong' according to many tuners who don't have the same constraints!

Maybe I'm just being completely dense but if a map was right or not right then Renault sent cars out mapped incorrectly? Or is it more likely that you don't have to comply with Euro regs which mean that it can be further adjusted to produce more power at a cost of emissions, or it can be adjusted to develop more power based on the quality of fuel in this country?

 

[stan*]

its right for economy and emmisions, its wrong for power and torque.

 

[sideways danny]

brick wall?

 

[Tom@JMS]

Maybe I'm just being completely dense but if a map was right or not right then Renault sent cars out mapped incorrectly? Or is it more likely that you don't have to comply with Euro regs which mean that it can be further adjusted to produce more power at a cost of emissions, or it can be adjusted to develop more power based on the quality of fuel in this country?

Correct. The maps you may add a later date remove all the manufacturers emissions regs placed on the OEM maps.

 

[Mike_182]

no

So, rather than being an obtuse f**k, how about explaining where in a flash or map or whatever the ECU decides how much boost is allowed to be produced before it limits it? As I know 150% that they have three 'maps' - 400, 600 and 800bhp (roughly) which are switched.

 

[mini-valver]

 

[Mike_182]

its right for economy and emmisions, its wrong for power and torque.

Right, so 'a map is right or it's not' isn't quite true then is it! As if you throw rules out the window and say 'powaaaaaaaaaaaah' like Clarkson then yes, one map suits all, but should you have to take other factors into the equation at different times then you cannot make such a generalisation!

 

[sideways danny]

So, rather than being an obtuse f**k, how about explaining where in a flash or map or whatever the ECU decides how much boost is allowed to be produced before it limits it? As I know 150% that they have three 'maps' - 400, 600 and 800bhp (roughly) which are switched.

in a boost limit table maybe

 

[stan*]

So, rather than being an obtuse f**k, how about explaining where in a flash or map or whatever the ECU decides how much boost is allowed to be produced before it limits it? As I know 150% that they have three 'maps' - 400, 600 and 800bhp (roughly) which are switched.

The ecu doesnt decide, the user defines boost limits, usually based on traction. the main fuel and ignition MAP stays the same.

when a higher boost level is achieved, the map sensor refers load to a DIFFERNT part of the SAME map.

the fact that its switchable from the dash board doesnt mean that when being calibrated its "mapped" differently.

 

[Mike_182]

in a boost limit table maybe

Right, so now to finish this off, is this considered outside of a 'map' (technically, not to me/joe public)?

Thanks.

 

[Icarus]

Multiple Calibrations do have a purpose and are used commonly within motorsport, for example the IRL boys who start their engines on gasolene but 'run' on methanol (well 90% methanol, 10% ethanol", back in the super touring era you'd have a startup cal as well which as the name implies was used for starting the engine from cold. The rally boys do occasionaly use multiple calibrations as well, especialy if they are using pressure for boost sensing rather than turbo speed as the requirement for a lower/higher boost level will reduce the resolution they are working with within the calibration and as such they'll get this back by using a sensor pack 'sized' to the engine output.

As has been said boost is essentialy just load and as a result you can acomodate a variety of boost pressures within one calibration (resolution allowing).

Cheers
M

 

[stan*]

"boost" is only a form of load...various levels of it will require various fuelling requirments/ign requirments. This can all be achieved on one map....as you are just calibrating different load/rpm sites.
This certainly isnt what "multiple maps" are about.

A single rpm/load event requires a specific (within a small range albeit) ign value and specific fuelling value for maximum output or economy.

Hence, its either mapped correctly or its not.

I refer you to a previous post of mine.

Either Power OR economy.

 

[Mike_182]

Thanks dude - glad someone can write a whole useful post rather than jumping out on the defensive!

 

[mini-valver]

Right, so 'a map is right or it's not' isn't quite true then is it! As if you throw rules out the window and say 'powaaaaaaaaaaaah' like Clarkson then yes, one map suits all, but should you have to take other factors into the equation at different times then you cannot make such a generalisation!

FFS. Stop being a f-cking idiot. Its either right, or its not. Simle. If its wrong, it will run like s**t. Understood?

Multiple maps are exactly that, multiple versions of a map which is right for the power or driveability that you want to achieve. So its either mapped right and you can switch to another map, which is right (unless you have a spastic mapping it) or its mapped wrong, and each one of your 3 maps are s**t.

 

[sideways danny]

I refer you to a previous post of mine.

Either Power OR economy.

well TBH, minimum best timing will give both. stock calibration is just safe for mass production

 

[stan*]

Multiple Calibrations do have a purpose and are used commonly within motorsport, for example the IRL boys who start their engines on gasolene but 'run' on methanol (well 90% methanol, 10% ethanol", back in the super touring era you'd have a startup cal as well which as the name implies was used for starting the engine from cold. The rally boys do occasionaly use multiple calibrations as well, especialy if they are using pressure for boost sensing rather than turbo speed as the requirement for a lower/higher boost level will reduce the resolution they are working with within the calibration and as such they'll get this back by using a sensor pack 'sized' to the engine output.

As has been said boost is essentialy just load and as a result you can acomodate a variety of boost pressures within one calibration (resolution allowing).

Cheers
M

yes but this all this is beyond the scope of what we are talking about here.

we may aswell include formula 1 valve actuation and calibrations for variable intake length!!

 

[stan*]

next person to post is gay....

 

[Icarus]

next person to post is gay....

What you upto later gorgeous?

 

[stan*]

facebook'ing single dads...you?

 

[Icarus]

yes but this all this is beyond the scope of what we are talking about here.

we may aswell include formula 1 valve actuation and calibrations for variable intake length!!

But never the less does show theres a purpose for multiple calibrations.

Do we think theres some confusion here over maps and calibrations i.e. the fact that a calibration can contain numerous maps and numerous maps for a single function i.e. boost control?

 

[Tom@JMS]

Thanks dude - glad someone can write a whole useful post rather than jumping out on the defensive!

Mike your winding them up that's why!! No need to talk race cars, rally car, bloody flying cars - on the road you fit parts - map the car according too all the requirements- done, sure you can tinker with the map profile but that's just down to preference - as Craig & Dan are saying on a ground level basis the car is either mapped correctly, or not.

yes but this all this is beyond the scope of what we are talking about here.

we may aswell include formula 1 valve actuation and calibrations for variable intake length!!

Don't hold back

 

[Mike_182]

FFS. Stop being a f-cking idiot. Its either right, or its not. Simle. If its wrong, it will run like s**t. Understood?

Multiple maps are exactly that, multiple versions of a map which is right for the power or driveability that you want to achieve. So its either mapped right and you can switch to another map, which is right (unless you have a [word filtered] mapping it) or its mapped wrong, and each one of your 3 maps are s**t.

You call me an idiot, then argue my case. Well done. Have a star. :star:

I think you've got the two sides of it mixed up - what you mean is a map is good or bad, then you're correct in the second half in that a map is right or wrong for a given situation. If as Icarus said you run two different fuels then surely you've got two 'good' maps but can run on the 'wrong' one but it isn't a 'crap' map or done by a [word filtered]!

well TBH, minimum best timing will give both. stock calibration is just safe for mass production

So it's not 'wrong' or 'bad' either. It's just not perfect for every engine! It's conservative but correct and delivers what it needs to across a broader range of criteria than would subsequently be required.

 

[Icarus]

facebook'ing single dads...you?

sending you an Xmas card just for that ROFL moment :lolup::lolup::lolup::lolup:

 

[seb]

LOL someone looked a bit out of their depth in this thread.

time for a chill pill for some in here.