Clio Super Cup

[Icarus]

Build diary of my Clio Super Cup Project

http://cliosupercup.blogspot.com/

In short 100bhp/litre, 200bhp/tonne, road useable, 58.5 second target around Brands Hatch. 7 Day build time. Xmas project ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

Superb ! Will be watching with interest ...

Presume you are local to Brands ?

 

[Icarus]

Cambs so fairly. Brands is one of my favourite tracks and the kind of cars I've been building lately get on really well at Brands. It was that or Silverstone GP and GP looks boring on the in car video ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[Bluebeard]

Awesome read that was!!

 

[Icarus]

When the build starts I'll be updating it from the 'shop so updates and pics should appear pretty thick and fast then.

Blog is half for me as well really as I never really do build diaries for anything. Just have a load of drawings, spreadsheets and facts and figures once done. Always forget the photos LOL

Cheers
M

 

[Naith]

im not 100% if cs is ready for ur stupid amounts of knowledge and gin based antics!

everything in a car this boy touches turns to gold... FACT!

 

[Bluebeard]

im not 100% if cs is ready for ur stupid amounts of knowledge and gin based antics!

everything in a car this boy touches turns to gold... FACT!

Would he do a 172 engine conversion on my Valver???

 

[Steviant]

Great blog that. Good luck with the build over Xmas.

Sounds like what I've done to mine over 4 years! lol

On semi-slicks, with 100bhp per tonne you should be able to realise your goal of 58.5 secs round the indy, no problem. In the right hands of course.

Much more fun than the Impreza.

Have you thought about a cage yet?

Steve

 

[Fred@BTM]

what does a standard car go round in? its around 1min flat isn't it?

 

[Naith]

Would he do a 172 engine conversion on my Valver???

probably with his eyes shut, a good few lads on ere dan and CS can only benifit from matts attitude and tech knowledge, more knowledge than most on motors but with none of the 'tude and arrogence!

and after all he did build this little bugger...

anyway enuf of the loving, he has his moments and can be a cnut when he wants

 

[Steviant]

what does a standard car go round in? its around 1min flat isn't it?

Would be more like 1.6 mins I think?

 

[Icarus]

Great blog that. Good luck with the build over Xmas.

Sounds like what I've done to mine over 4 years! lol

On semi-slicks, with 100bhp per tonne you should be able to realise your goal of 58.5 secs round the indy, no problem. In the right hands of course.

Much more fun than the Impreza.

Have you thought about a cage yet?

Steve

58.5 is a pretty good target for a 200bhp/tonne car that isn't heavily track focused. I can build something that with 10bhp power/weight less will do high 55's but it would be horrendous/unusable on the road. I really want to build a 'super' cup i.e a 172 Cup in every way thats better in every way than the standard one.

Really trying to avoid going down the route of a cage etc. due to weight and usability issues. I may need to add some structure around the rear damper pickups at some point as I may turn them into the main pickups for the rear suspension but am undecided on that at the moment.

I am building in adjustability for track use and will have specific track/road setups but the plan is no more than an hour to turn from one to the other.

This is a bit of a first for me as I've only done track or primarily road stuff before - never something that can create a good account for itself on either.

Engine wise its a similar story. I could stick it on ITB's with an aftermarket ECU (I work for a company which specialises in very top end engine control so no issue there) and get over 200bhp no problems at all but I want DBW throttle butterfly actuation, I want a single throttle butterfly, I want -20 degree cold start, I want perfect idle, I want a DTE readout on the dash and I don't want to have to give it any attention at all between services. Hence sticking with pretty much standard engine control/electronics package, standard'ish rev limit, standard valve train components (bar cams) etc. etc.

If I can't kick the s**t out of this little thing with 30K in a year of mixed road/track use I'll be disapointed ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[Icarus]

what does a standard car go round in? its around 1min flat isn't it?

1.02 - 1.04 depending on version.

58.5 is realistic. If it all comes right and we put (Cr)Ashley in it after starving him of silk cut for half a day it might see a 58 ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[Fred@BTM]

sounds spot on!

yoz's old cup with a standard engine was more fun than when it had 240bhp LOL!!!

we ran standard rear turrets with cup racer rear shocks no bother, cage's weigh too much also!!!

7800rpm rev limit, full decat system (boo for using the one you are :rasp: its HEAVY!) and it'll go reet!

 

[Icarus]

probably with his eyes shut, a good few lads on ere dan and CS can only benifit from matts attitude and tech knowledge, more knowledge than most on motors but with none of the 'tude and arrogence!

and after all he did build this little bugger...

anyway enuf of the loving, he has his moments and can be a cnut when he wants

Total Cnut mate ;-) Although that 197 Super Endurance car is my favourite Icy production! It was the highest points scoring car in the entire Britcar Production S1 Championship and took first in class in the under 2000CC class in this years Britcar 24 hour. I designed, developed and managed the car this year and it has completed over 6000 race KM's without a single failure.... at all.... ever.... it has a 100% finish record and that wasn't easy to achieve when you start with a race car designed and built for 24 minute races!!!

Just want to make it clear though. Everything I say is my opinion on the subject. There's usualy more than one way to achieve an objective and thats especialy true with automotive engineering, people will disagree, engineers will strongly disagree - and thats why development happens because if you don't have more than one idea to start with you're going to struggle finding a way around problems. I've been lucky enough to work with some very smart guys and do some fantastic things as a job so I'm pretty handy but I'm not enough of a cnut to think I'm always right - I've never not achieved an objective yet but I'd have a monkey on there having been a much easier way to do it in some cases

Cheers
M

 

[Steviant]

Only thing I find is that Brands gets a little boring after a while, then the Ring trip happen.

Hence the Safety Devices 6 point. It may weigh more, but it stiffens the car nicely especially as the rear is so light, and adds a little driver confidence too. Especially entering the Fuchsröhre!

Fred, I thought Yoz had a huge strut brace welded in between the rear towers, no?

 

[Icarus]

sounds spot on!

yoz's old cup with a standard engine was more fun than when it had 240bhp LOL!!!

we ran standard rear turrets with cup racer rear shocks no bother, cage's weigh too much also!!!

7800rpm rev limit, full decat system (boo for using the one you are :rasp: its HEAVY!) and it'll go reet!

That exhaust is stupid heavy! Heavier than the complete system on the Super Endurance 197.... however it was cheap and therefore in budget ;-)

Thinking more 7500RPM at the moment for reliability but will know more once its been on the dyno and I can see where the power starts to drop off.

Did you run with standard cup race car spring rates on those coilovers? The amount of 'engineered' strength in that area doesn't seem sufficient when you look at the loads that would be imposed on it, especially in road use on uneven/pot holes tarmac. However a softer spring would help immensely and its only really a spreader plate around that are with another 130sqmm or so of area to move the loads over a much wider area and have no issue at all, on paper or otherwise The idea with Cup/Matter cages is that the cage becomes semi load bearing with regards the rear suspension.

I did really like Yoz's Cup - its the main reason I got one!

Cheers
M

 

[Icarus]

Only thing I find is that Brands gets a little boring after a while, then the Ring trip happen.

Hence the Safety Devices 6 point. It may weigh more, but it stiffens the car nicely especially as the rear is so light, and adds a little driver confidence too. Especially entering the Fuchsröhre!

Fred, I thought Yoz had a huge strut brace welded in between the rear towers, no?

I quite like Brands, its pretty technical and not a lot beats Paddock at full chat, I like corners where if you get it right the first half feels like the start of a huge off

Cage is definitely sensible for a heavily track biased car but you really need it properly padded and seats with head restraints and harnesses as with a standard belt and none head restrain seats they can be lethal on the road, drivers side impact results in your head impacting a T45 steel bar which rarely ends happily. Been a few deaths as a result of cage/head interface

Cheers
M

 

[Barron]

Adrian (Bazzon) seemed very impressed with your knowledge at a recent midlands meet so will be keeping an eye on this Bring it to croft when its done would like to see what it can achieve.

on a side note...have you ever worked on Jenvey ITBs with omex ecu? and do you do coilover setting up? have some AST coilovers from FMP's time attack car on our track car atm but they arent correctly setup really.

ta
carl

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah it had a rear harness bar welded in, but that was about 12months if not more before we put the cup racer rear coilovers on it

they were standard cup racer rear shocks ie HARD! his car was COMPLETELY stripped though! we did something like 10-15K miles on them, the only problem we had was when i snapped the wee little rose joint on the bottom of the passenger side rear (sideways over the curb at bedford with some bloke from r-sport france in the car LOL!!)

apart from that and a sore back it was fine!

 

[Icarus]

I've done quite a bit with Jenvey TB's on various engines in the past although there are better options out there for ITB's - albeit not at anywhere near the same price point. The Jenveys whilst quite a classic design do work very well for the money.

I've mapped a couple of Omex/Gems Mini ECU's and the Omex 600 is a bloody good ECU for a 4 Cyl on wasted spark. I work with these and similar day to day:

Thats the same ECU that RBR ran until the MES spec ECU and that the BP/Ford WRC team still use.

Speak to Paul at RS with regards ECU though as he may be able to get it running on the standard management with a bit of tinkering.

BPM has cornerweight scales, caster/camber gauges, track gauge etc. etc. so yes I can set them up for you if required purely cash in hand/part payment in Hendricks ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[Fred@BTM]

Pi research? you may know Nick (dodgy surname, french sounding?)

i was on the superfund superformula test team in Hungary, we had the Pi boys out there with us

 

[Barron]

do you have an email address i can contact you on matt or would you prefer PM as could do with getting them setup correctly

ta
carl

 

[Icarus]

Pi research? you may know Nick (dodgy surname, french sounding?)

i was on the superfund superformula test team in Hungary, we had the Pi boys out there with us

I know Nick, he works on the Pi Research/Data logging side of things. I'm on the engine control side of things with Pectel.

Cheers
M

 

[Icarus]

do you have an email address i can contact you on matt or would you prefer PM as could do with getting them setup correctly

ta
carl

Stick me a PM over mate. If you're free over Xmas I shall be spending most of it in the workshop so you can pop it down then. About half a day to do it and you will need some test sessions as well to properly set your compression and rebound rates, assuming you have adjustability?

Cheers
M

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah he nearly killed us all driving through Budapest, he either can't drive or was pissed! haha

 

[Barron]

Stick me a PM over mate. If you're free over Xmas I shall be spending most of it in the workshop so you can pop it down then. About half a day to do it and you will need some test sessions as well to properly set your compression and rebound rates, assuming you have adjustability?

Cheers
M

ok no worries mate, PM'd

 

[Steviant]

I quite like Brands, its pretty technical and not a lot beats Paddock at full chat, I like corners where if you get it right the first half feels like the start of a huge off

most corners feel like that for me! lol

Cage is definitely sensible for a heavily track biased car but you really need it properly padded and seats with head restraints and harnesses as with a standard belt and none head restrain seats they can be lethal on the road, drivers side impact results in your head impacting a T45 steel bar which rarely ends happily. Been a few deaths as a result of cage/head interface


Cheers
M

Yep, very aware of that, have only the rear hoop in at the minute, but front will go in with loads of padding next year. Fishy wouldn't fit anything unsafe to any of his cars. My std belts have been in a box in garage for about 2 years now. You do get used to the harnesses after a while, makes even the trip to supermarket interesting.

pics

I watched your 197 at Brands this year, running in Britcar. Looked pdq. Will see if I can find some shots for you.

S

 

[Icarus]

I watched your 197 at Brands this year, running in Britcar. Looked pdq. Will see if I can find some shots for you.

S

Considering its one of the least powerful/heaviest cars in Britcar it doesn't half give a good account of itself! We sneaked a bit of a look at the AM's data in the 24 and were quite surprised several of their corner exit speeds were lower than ours!

Cheers
M

 

[Englebert]

Will you still be doing Britcar next year?

Rob (in the blue/orange Elise)

 

[Icarus]

Will you still be doing Britcar next year?

Rob (in the blue/orange Elise)

In some way, shape or form yes - and still with the Super Endurance Clio. The suite of upgrades for 2009 have had to be cut back slightly due to economic conditions but we shall be on the grid defending our highest points scoring status in Britcar Productions next year.

At the moment its likely the car will be mildly upgraded with around 230bhp and a refreshed electronics package and colour scheme but aside from that it'll be mostly standard. No paddle shift as yet ;-)

Cheers
M

 

[Keith185]

Look forward to seeing the progress on this, keep us posted.

 

[r0ss172]

This is a quality thread, enjoyed the attention to detail in the blog... one question tho... where is all the money coming from for all this? is it just something you've been saving for a rainy day sorta thing?

Cant wait for it to get up and running

Also how much did you pay for that Cup in the end?

 

[Icarus]

This is a quality thread, enjoyed the attention to detail in the blog... one question tho... where is all the money coming from for all this? is it just something you've been saving for a rainy day sorta thing?

Cant wait for it to get up and running

Also how much did you pay for that Cup in the end?

Funded entirely via my stable of bi'atches and massive coke imports or the fact that I flogged my Impreza, stuck a few K in the bank and am building this with whats left.

Paid 2.5 for the car which I was happy with as it was a completely standard, no accident damage car. Have stuck a 1000 miles on it before starting this to see if I could find anything and its tip top! There were a couple of Cat D/Lower mileage cars about for similar money but I'd rather have a straight car with miles than a low miler with bad history.

Cheers
M

 

[r0ss172]

Funded entirely via my stable of bi'atches and massive coke imports or the fact that I flogged my Impreza, stuck a few K in the bank and am building this with whats left.

Paid 2.5 for the car which I was happy with as it was a completely standard, no accident damage car. Have stuck a 1000 miles on it before starting this to see if I could find anything and its tip top! There were a couple of Cat D/Lower mileage cars about for similar money but I'd rather have a straight car with miles than a low miler with bad history.

Cheers
M

Yeh couldnt agree more with that tbh especially if your going to track it. Well good luck again with the build, is the britcar comp the one that they top gear presenters took part in? id love to get into something like that!

 

[Icarus]

Yep Top Gear lot did it in 2007. We did the entire PS1 season and the Britcar 24 hour.

Cheers
M

 

[Fletcher]

Nice project! i look forward to seeing the finished car.

 

[Barron]

how many sets of tyres did you go through? thats alot of miles!

 

[aaronc]

I used to do 56 sec times round brands in my old 150bhp cup racer so you should be able to attain at least that.

Looks awesome.

 

[1PBY]

is good to hear from you mate. I didnt realsie u had left at the cs meet in hinckley. was a good night. would love to see the project when finished. how you coming along with the 197 racer?