Clio Williams Worth It

[Hastings]

Hi, ive got an 02 1.2 16v Dynamique at the minute and i really want an Accord Type R, but i have chance of buying a 94L Williams 1 (no. 2?? or something) for £1500 about 110,000 miles, FSH and slight rust to the rear arches, is it a bargain or should i keep saving for the ATR?

The willy has been looked after by family friends almost from new and not thrashed at all (2nd shopping car)

Thanks for any advice given.

 

[007]

The Accord will be more reliable and cheaper to run but less fun I reckon.

 

[Matbrown]

Ill have the willy off ya!



Mat.

 

[king.stromba]

It must be pretty f*cked if he only wants £1500. Surely this is too good to be true??????????????????

If you dont want it and its tidyish, ill buy it as a second car for that money.

 

[Matbrown]

Back off!

Join the Q.



Mat.

 

[007]

Read his full description again - for £1500 there is gonna be a fight!

 

[king.stromba]

lol

 

[2 live]

lol

with rust on the back arches it hasnt been looked after very well at all has it lol

m

could this be no.3???????????

lol

 

[White16valver]

If its got FSH, buy it and strip it - should be able to get about a grand for the mechanicals on their own!

Or sell it to me

*elbows way to front of queue*

 

[king.stromba]

Bit of rust dont mean jack. Could just be a chip that wasnt painted. We need pics to see the real quality. Cant be 3, he said it was 2?? meaning two hundred and something i think.

 

[Speiro]

Add me to the Que

 

[Fatherted]

just coz it has rust on the rear arches dont mean it aint been looked after !

if you take your Interior rear panels off youll see that on some cars the factory put a good amount of rust proofing & on others they put hardly any

mind you.....a williams for £1500.....its either someone who dont know what it really worth......or is a poor example

 

[trog]

I use my willy once a week and its rusty under the arches, but point this car round a roundabout or a 90 degree corner and you wont believe wot you just did!

 

[gaj16v]

My old clio was well looked after, but a body shop f**ked mine and caused it to rust on one side after a minor prang!

 

[edde]

Buy it seems like you have a few buyers for it on here.

You could make a tidy profit but after driving it I think you will end up keeping it.

EDD

 

[Hastings]

Sadly the willy isnt at that price for anyone else! would probably go up to £2500 - £3000, which looking through Autotrader is still on the cheap side!

the rear arches are really rusty, i spoke to my old man last night and he thinks its a poor accident repair job, as the rust is all through the arches, he suggested a rear end that wasnt sorted correctly. The bodywork also has a few chinks (doors in Asda car park) but i am not concerned with the way it looks, just the performance. My only concern is the high miles and with it being a willy are the parts hard to come by and expensive?

So back to my original question, is it worth it (over an ATR)?

 

[king.stromba]

Seem to be a fair amount of parts around, but they can be expensive to maintain. Having said that, i think they are expensive to maintain because people spend whatever it takes to keep them looking fantastic (i have yet to see a Williams that looks more than 5 years old despite being made almost 10 years ago, although im sure there are some out there).

One word of caution. If you buy a Williams and drive it round for the performance but it looks all f*cked up, alot of people will see you and think oh look at that tw*t that hasnt looked after his Williams - loser. I know its not your fault but people will still think it. So if your going to buy it, id get it looking nice unless you dont mind those looks.

Personally i think youd be stupid if you dont buy it. Even if i didnt want it i would buy it, spend a bit of money getting it looking and driving nice, then flog it for 3 to 5 k. You can have some fun driving it around while your doing it up.

 

[king.stromba]

On the rust front, personally i go round my cars 3 or 4 times a year with a pot of zinc primer. If i see any areas i think might rust i just dab some on (or if its on the exterior i use a touch up pen). Zinc primer is effective because the zinc in the paint accepts electrons from the oxygen atoms (in the water and air that cause rust), preferentially over the iron of your car. This prevents the formation of iron oxide instead forming zinc oxide. The key to this being effective is that you have to reaply the zinc layer because after a while all the zinc will have turned to zinc oxide and there will be no free zinc to accept electrons so the iron will start to rust again. Its not the same as sanding down priming with normal primer and painting over with top coat because all that does is prevent the oxygen reaching the exposed iron. Its a very clever system that was invented by some scientist, just like me. The other main contributor of rust is sodium chloride (salt) which facilitates the movement of electrons from the oxygen to the iron. Once sodium chloride has entered metal its history unless you remove it using electrolysis which takes along time and is very expensive. The Cutty Sark in London is currently undergoing electrolysis to remove salt that is causing her to rot away.

By the way as an aside, oxygen also rots us. However nature in her infinite wisdom has provided us with substances that revent the rot. It works like this. Oxygen enters our body and react with cells causing damage (just like a rusting car). This is called oxidation. However, we have substances that react with the oxygen (antioxidants) that act in a similar way to zinc primer. They accept electrons from oxygen and sacrifice themselves to prevent damage to the cells of our body. Common antioxidants are vitamin e, flavonoids in apples, vitamin c and beta carotene in carrots. Almost all of the major disease today (heart disease, cancer etc) are cause by oxygen killing our cells). If the cells die in our brains we get Alzheimers or Parkinsons disease. The conclusion is: eat lots of anti oxidants and youll be healthy (an apple a day keeps the doctor away)

Here endeth the lesson.

 

[u33db]

I think you should definately go for it! If what youve been told is true, then the 110k miles wont be a problem (apparently shopping trips etc) and the fact that is has been owned by family friends should also back this up - youll know roughly how they drive! As for the rust, Its well known that all clios suffer around the rear arches at some point unless theyve been owned by someone like king.stomba so the one youre after doesnt necessarily indicate a badly looked after car!

 

[Hastings]

thanks king.stromba, i have now got brainache, which is a whole new feeling to me as i never knew i had one.

u33db, mainly shopping trips, but 110k does denote the shop was in paris, lol

yeah, im gonna give them a ring tonight and try to sort something out, i have real reservations though as i know nothing about the engine and have been told its a 1.8 16v bored out, also been told the 1.8s werent v.good. What is the difference between the willy 1s to the 2 and 3s then?

on your advice peeps i may just buy it, then i will bug you all to give tips on gentle friendly modding and restoration.



cheers

 

[Hastings]

just had a brainwave - omegod -

must have been king.stromba helping me to realise its there!!

If i buy this willy, can i get the engine reconditioned? and how much/who will do it? The bodywork i can do myself, but i make a point never to touch the engine. (clumsy fingers you see)

somebody get me a crayon to put up my nose quick!!!

 

[u33db]

Bloody hell dude - If its a williams but with a bored out 1.8 id be tempted to walk away for the following reasons;

If its got a 1.8 in it can you really be sure its been bored out (1.8/2.0 engines look near identical without getting into engine numbers etc)? If the engine has been replaced with a bored out 1.8 can you really be happy that everythiung else is 100%? If the engine has been swapped, is it still really a williams?

By the way, i had my 1.8 reconditioned at 120k which cost 2k (but i think that is rather expensive on average) - it made a fair improvement. 1.8 are a good engine but they feel totally different to the 2ltr. I dont was to offend by the way but you do know that the Williams only came in 2ltr? All Willys are essentially the same by the way - they all just have minor cosmetic and equipment options i think...

Either way, be very, very careful with this if youre interested - if its not what its supposed to be you will have serious problems getting rid of it!

 

[007]

1.8 If it was a 1.8 it wasnt a Williams

 

[Ben H]

Quote: Originally posted by Hastings on 07 September 2003


thanks king.stromba, i have now got brainache, which is a whole new feeling to me as i never knew i had one.

u33db, mainly shopping trips, but 110k does denote the shop was in paris, lol

yeah, im gonna give them a ring tonight and try to sort something out, i have real reservations though as i know nothing about the engine and have been told its a 1.8 16v bored out, also been told the 1.8s werent v.good. What is the difference between the willy 1s to the 2 and 3s then?

on your advice peeps i may just buy it, then i will bug you all to give tips on gentle friendly modding and restoration.



cheers

The William is the boy: essentially to the 16V what the Cup is to the 172, a fettled edition of the standard hot hatch of the day. Of course, the Cup was mainly an exercise in lightening, while the Williams was a more comprehensive overhaul. Contrary to popular belief, the Williams had nothing to do with Williams: it simply used the name to celebrate the coincidental Renault-Williams F1 glory.

Basically, the Clio 16V was the homologation car for Renaultsport in Group A rallying and it was very, very good. Remember, they were putting this little 1.8 NA car up against cars like the Escort Cosworth, Integrale and the early Impreza.

They had a damn fine chassis with the 16V. In fact, the 1764cc car was 1.5 seconds per mile fatser than the legandary Group B 5 Turbo 2 300bhp rally behemoth! But they wanted to exploit the class rules that allowed engine capacity up to 2.0 litres. Hence the 2.0 F7R engine was born. When fitted into the Clio 16V works car, it rapidly earned its reputation as the fastest FWD rally car of all time. In fact, the 2.0 and the later Maxi version still hold numerous tarmac records. They later changed FWD rules so that 1.6 is now the class limit (Super 1600 Series) - perhaps a result of the Clio Maxi putting some big boys noses out of joint?

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_b/286000-286999/286766_3_full.jpg

The great Ragnottis Clio Maxi

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_b/286000-286999/286766_40_full.jpg

It was even good in the snow!

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_b/286000-286999/286766_41_full.jpg

Clio Williams No.001 at the Williams factory (credit to King Stromba)

http://images.cardomain.com/member_img_b/286000-286999/286766_25_full.jpg

The Clio 16V

The Williams 2.0 F7R engine doesnt get much more power/torque than the 16V, but it gets them at lower revs (85% torque at 2500rpm - thats torquey!). So, off the mark there isnt a great deal between a 16V and Williams, but once you introduce a few roundabouts, T-junctions and hairpins its a different matter.

The Willy also got some suspension mods to widen the track (and different offset wheels to help further with this) and different coloured interior. Other than that, its a Clio 16V - so parts are fairly common, if a little expensive.

The Williams 1, 2 and 3 were sold with about 400 examples of each in the UK, so theyre pretty rare (when was the last time you saw a 16V, let alone a Williams!). The Williams 1 (late 1993) were numbered individually and were all of the Clio Phase1 variety. Williams 2 (early to late 1994) were half Phase1 and half Phase2 - so there are some minor cosmetic differences. All Williams 3 (1995) were Phase2 and had a different shade of blue paint and some "contoversial" options (sunroof, ABS - should a rally homologation car have them??).

Anyway, thats the bare bones. Theres a lot more detail, but my hands and brain hurt a bit now!

The Williams is a classic car already. Youd be a fool to turn one down.

 

[2 live]

hehe u say the williams are rare, when was the kast time u saw a valver let alone a williams?

al i have to do is stick me head out the window an theres a willy 1 an willy 2 sat there.......decisions decisions

my comment on this being no.3 meant that at £1500 for a willy 1 id av the fukka......meaning it would be MY 3rd williams

the rust on the arches is common on clios?????????????????????????

iv had 3, a valver n 2 willys and none of them have any rust on the arches, a well looked after example wont either

 

[Hastings]

it is definately a willy.



what i meant was, where did the 2.0 willy originate, i was told by a friend that it was a 1.8 bored out, i am not saying this was is a 1.8. I know nothing about engines and even less about willys, i didnt know the rallying heritage, i, in my naiveness (and my mate) thought it was a 1.8 bored out and tuned by williams, thanks to Ben H i stand correted

 

[edde]

Im sure the Williams was a 1.8 16V bored out with bigger pistons and a 1.9D crackshaft for more stroke.

Id say you should get it for £1500. The miage doesnt seem to be a big problem the engine is very strong and since it has been used as a shopping trolley wear will be less than a boy racer driven one. If you need the engine rebuilt I wouldnt see it as a big problema s the car was cheap in the fist place and if other cars are priced at £3.5~£4 then spending £2k on a rebuild isnt wastful.

EDD

 

[Ben H]

The F7R Williams engine is itself very similar to the F7P unit in the Clio and 19 16V. The engine was first found in the Williams, but was later also used in the Phase1 Megane Coupe 16V and Renault Spider (sort of a Lotus Elise rival). I think BenR said that these F7-series engines were going to be used in the Lotus Elise itself, but that Renault pulled out at the last minute. The engines are practically indistinguishable from the outside.

The F7R (Willy) crankcase is the same as the F7P (16V) one. Things start to get different with the 2.0 when they used the (much) longer crankshaft from a 1.9 diesel engine. The bore is also wider than the 16V unit; similar to the 1.8 Clio RSi engines bore. The F7R engine is therefore undersquare - giving the torque at lower revs.

The F7R uses F7P conrods, but has special pistons with thinner compression rings. Camshaft lift is increased and the F7R head also has bigger inlet valves than on the F7P head. Inlet parts were also polished. A unique four-into-one steel manifold was used, since the cast F7P one is designed to give better torque low down and the F7R unit needs the torque at higher revs. The F7R sump is also 6mm deeper and baffled.

The Williams gets an uprated gearbox too, but the ratios are the same as in the 16V apart from a taller 5th cog. Many parts come from the 19 TD box, such as bigger gears, different bearings and a larger secondary shaft. All these fit within a reinforced gbox casing. All other bits are the same as the 16V box.

 

[Fatherted]

Quote: Originally posted by 2 live on 07 September 2003


hehe u say the williams are rare, when was the kast time u saw a valver let alone a williams?

al i have to do is stick me head out the window an theres a willy 1 an willy 2 sat there.......decisions decisions

my comment on this being no.3 meant that at £1500 for a willy 1 id av the fukka......meaning it would be MY 3rd williams

the rust on the arches is common on clios?????????????????????????

iv had 3, a valver n 2 willys and none of them have any rust on the arches, a well looked after example wont either

well see eh !!!....sooner or later mother nature will catch up with you & hey presto.....rust ! you wont stop it

i bet if you took the rear interior side panels off youll find rust on the inside arches & in the sills....why do you think renault now only gives you a 3 year rust warrenty ?

they spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on return vehicles comming back with rust ! mine was 4 weeks out of the 7 year warrenty when rust started to come through & the previous owner was a 16v fanatic !

mind you alot of it is due to the high amount of salt that is put on the roads in winter....sorry mate...but ask anyne who repairs or restores cars...rust is their biggest enemy

And im sorry but i disagree with the claims that some people make saying that williams & valvers are rare cars.....maybe in another 10-15 years time

theres about 4-5 williams in swindon & im sure theres about 30-40 valvers in & around the swindon area

wonder if someone could find out how many valvers renault sold in the UK....king.stromba ???

if its a williams ........buy it.....youd be mad not to at that price ! & even if you decide you dont like it.....youd find plenty of buyers waiting to part with their cash for it....youd make a tidy profit even if you didnt touch it !

 

[u33db]

Hastings - apologies about the earlier spiel about if its a bored out 1.8 then walk away - what i meant was that if it had a replacement engine installed (ie a 1.8, bored out or not) then walk away. This happened to my mates old willy after he sold it and it went for peanuts!

2 live - I have to disagree m8. Rust will sooner or later hit all clios and its nearly always on the arches. These cars are up to 10 years old now and unless theyve been kept undercover, there will be traces somewhere. Fair enough Willys are usually particularly but look at the lower models or a valver with a hard life and youll see what i mean.

Sorry for the rant! Also, i think people are getting confused between a classic and a rare car. Willys/Valvers fall into classic territory - excellent design and worth a lot one day but even up in Aberdeen theres at least 5 or 6 kicking about so not exactly rare.....

 

[king.stromba]

Id say 5 of a particular car in the whole of Aberdeen makes it quite rare. In the whole of Aberdeen how many Golf TDIs are there? How many Saxo VTS? Rarity is a comparable thing. COMPARED to other cars the Williams is rare (it was rare when it was first made because only 500 where made for this country). Ok its not as rare as a Spider, but you cant sat its not rare.

I think rust is a personal issue. I hate the stuff so i nip it in the bud. If you put the effort in an take the panels of your car occassionally and go under your car and have a good look to prime any patches, your car SHOULD be rust free for ever. Painted iron wont rust. It HAS to be in contact with oxygen. Unpainted iron occurs due to paint chips or poor manufacturing. If i bought a new car i would still go round it as soon as i bought it and look for any exposed iron and dab it with zinc primer. A stitch in time and all that.

 

[aaronc]

i got no sign of rust yet on mine, arches are in prefect condition.

ALthough im gonna keep a close eye now as it was made in 95 so getting rather old now!

 

[007]

No rust on mine either BUT non enthusiasts tend not to wash their car all the time during the winter. This lets the salt eat away at it - I have owned and viewed enough Fords to see the result of a good car in bad conditon due to not enough TLC.

Millions of VTSs in Aberdeen BTW! Not seen another Williams but saw one for sale so there is one somewhere. Only 1 Williams in Inverness tho.

 

[2 live]

like i said before........A WELL LOOKED AFTER EXAMPLE OF A CLIO WILL HAVE NO RUST ON IT......REGARDLESS AF AGE

well looked after means just that...........stoppin things deteriorating before they get bad....i.e looking after it lol

 

[Hastings]

Unfortunately, i work right next to an extremely busy farm, and my car gets sh*t up every day, so i kind of lost the will to clean my car all the while because of that, performance is all i care about, not looks. Obviously i would never let a car get too bad, just enough to bring it back from the brink, and now i know how special the willy 1s are/were, then i spose ill be more inclined to look after it, only trouble is i do 50 miles per day to and from work, with this one being 110k already, it may be worth me investing a little in the engine, although it is FSH, its not Renault or even specialist.

Thanks for all the info, i spoke to my old man last night and hes ringing his mate for me some time this week, so ill keep you all posted, if i dont get it and they still want to sell it then i may put something on the for sale board, so keep you eyes out.

 

[007]

Personally I wouldnt buy it to use for 50 miles a day - you bills could be big!

 

[Ben H]

Yeah! I do do 50 miles+ a day in my Valver at the moment and I can assure you that they arent best suited to these sorts of miles when they already have 100k plus on the clock. A 16V/Willy will always be reliable if cared for, but it will cost you big bucks if you want to keep it that way when you pile big miles on them - its a similar story with most older hot hatches and performance cars. I can afford to keep my Valver going, but I havent got the time now to keep it in the condition I used to keep it in.

Basically, I cant maintain my Valver in its A1 condition if I use it for the miles Im doing at the moment (50+ per day), so Im either getting a second car or selling it to someone who will use it less and keep it in the condition it should be in.

Get a Citroen ZX Volcane Turbo Diesel for mileage. Sub £750 and most have leather. Use one for a few years and then bin it if needs be! (although its a historic sporty hatch in itself - first diesel hot hatch)

 

[king.stromba]

Get a Volvo 340 as a second car. Instructions:

Buy a cheap one (sub £200) tax and tested

Rip out all seats including passenger, mats, door panels, spare wheel, tools, carpets, rear and light washer motors, roof padding

Make home made IK

Run it into the ground

Get another one, and use first one for parts to make second one last longer.

 

[Hastings]

king.stromba, excuse the muppetry, but what is IK,

Even with the weight reduction, i doubt a 340 would satisfy my need for regular day-to-day thrapsing.

 

[Ben H]

Induction kit.

And yes, I used to a Volvo 340 too! (until a few months ago).