Dci tuning thread

[MG cup]

Read my post, I have no problem with tuning them, I like the idea. I said do the basics first instead of trying to get involved in fuel systems.

Metering valve as I said unless the dc100 pump is maxed out.

Have you fitted a bigger turbo, reduced the CP, big intercooler's etc as it doesn't say so in this thread.

I'm trying to help you not argue with you.

 

[Tutuur]

Well the bottomline is every component is able to make more power but is restricted by the fuel delivery. That's exactly the reason we are trying to find out feasable ways to improve the pumps flow.


As mentioned in the thread it seems the fords have exactly the same pump (although we haven't opened one) however they are able to make much more power. What if the delphi pump is restricted by the vacume side?


We know the tdci's use a lift pump so in this case it would be of help to get more flow from the pump.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Why don't you just do the basics, cooler air into the engine and more of it so you have a need for more fuel, free flowing exhaust, DCI 100 injectors and a remap?

I get where your coming from, the reason me and Tuutur are trying to find an alternative fuel system is because everything has be tried , 130hp max and we can't get anything more even when putting better turbo's on.

The 100/80 injectors are exactly the same bar the slight increase fuel pressure 1400-1600.
So is the pumps. Tuuturs engine is abit more stronger , different turbo but fueling is the same but pressure is raised to max for the Hp they produce


I had crdi injectors in at one point and it maxed the pump out good and proper at 142-143 hp, the EML light was coming on for low due l pressure warning. The pump had nothing wrong with it.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

I need to get out of this thread. It's making me want to get a DCi and start playing.

Wait til one of us has destructed a DCI lump before costing you money LOL

Tbh I know I'll be throwing money at my engine to get more out of it, but I would like to.
Im a diesel freak and I'm dam crazy to find out what the DCI 1.5 can do

 

[MG cup]

Missed those above posts while writing this.

Well if the pump is the bottle neck then you can look to upgrade but remember you need more air in an engine in order to add more fuel first. Is the DCI 100 pump at 100% when you map them?

Different pumps require different feed pressures, its they way there designed and built. It needs a lift pump because it has a higher demand (flow rate) rather than lift pump creating more flow or pressure. BMWs are a good example of this when their 5 bar inline pump brakes they run fine but don't make good power.

The pumps will look the same essentially as a lot of the pumps (Delphi and Bosch) share the same external appearance they are all machined different and the amount of different parts between models would scare you. So on that I very much doubt you will be able to swap internals.

Whats the spec and power output if both of your cars?

 

[MG cup]

What higher capacity DCI can you get that uses the same block? I don't know my Renault diesels, I tried to stay away from them, they were a good part of the reason why I used to hate Renaults.

I have fixed far too many Kangoo , Master, Traffic (prima star, movano etc) so there fuel systems and electrics leave me a bit cold lol.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Yupp pump is at max when mapped.

Giving it some will make the ecu lean the pump back as it cannot give anymore.

Same as the 80.

I don't think we are planning in changing internal components of the pump, rather just swap them and all accounted stuff to make it work, we are trying to find out what's different inside the 1.8 pump to the 1.5

As it stands mine is a DCI 80 running standard map.

Dci 80 IC ( soon to be a Dacia 100 style intercooler like Tuutur fitted earlier In this thread)
Complete straight through 2.5inch exhaust with custom decatt pipe.
Kp35 non vnt turbo.
Jc5 gearbox as standard but uprated clutch and pressure plate.

The bits I have still from my previous engine before the bottom end let go,

VNT turbo, and crdi injectors ( 2.9 version )

Airbox is standard with a K&N high flow panel filter
relocated air feed to front top grill

I dnt think we can get any bigger than 1.5 in the K9K block.
only stronger rods and pistons ( probs crank aswell )

Next one up is the 1.9dci F9Q

 

[MG cup]

I'm just thinking for ease of bolting the pump to the block if there is a higher capacity engine with the same or similar block , search around for a bigger K block.

am I making up a Renault 1.7 Diesel engine?

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Allot of the pumps have the same bolt pattern for mounting to the block. 1.8 has the same pattern,
I thought the crdi 2.9 pump would be but the bolt pattern is 7mm off to the right

I can't find any more K block Renault diesel engines. I don't know what nissans 1.6dci block is out of their MPV

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

am I making up a Renault 1.7 Diesel engine?

Retract my statement, seems people get sl17dci on the kangoo vans as a 1.7 where as theyre a 1.5 with the load capcity bit being sl17

Dam

 

[welshname]

Wait til one of us has destructed a DCI lump before costing you money LOL

Tbh I know I'll be throwing money at my engine to get more out of it, but I would like to.
Im a diesel freak and I'm dam crazy to find out what the DCI 1.5 can do

I know but I miss the smokey 24psi boost lols I had in the pug.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

That's the only think you can't do on these, make the smoke like a destroyer.

Unless you blow the turbo or an Ic hose of like I did many moons ago haha

 

[Tutuur]

Did you hear anything from dieselbob yet Raz?

 

[Tutuur]

I've just opened the dci dieselpump a bought and looking at the innards i'm sure a swap will be possible if the tdci flow more.

already bought 4 2.0 tdci injectors so now only the pump!

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

He's still messing about putting them on the test bench. So far the 1.8 only seems to be a tad more powerful than the 1.5 pump.

Which 2.0 injectors you gone for? I know the. Jag/Mondeo injectors have a different body and a threaded part for securing it into the head.

 

[Tutuur]

Hhmmm mondeo injectors i think, they look the same!

the 501z codes.

Well, maybe the tiny bit is enough to supply for 150bhp instead of 130...

 

[MG cup]

I've just opened the dci dieselpump a bought and looking at the innards i'm sure a swap will be possible if the tdci flow more.

already bought 4 2.0 tdci injectors so now only the pump!

HP pumps are really simple inside aren't they, crazy to think them tiny little pistons make 2000 + bar at times.

 

[Tutuur]

Yes indeed, tiny pistons as in 5,5mm diameter

 

[Martin_172]

my mapped 100 if you gave it death thru the gears by the time you were flat out in 4th you would get a loss of power and a warning light as the fuel pump couldn't hold pressure, lift off for 2 seconds and back on again to let it catch up and it was fine

 

[Tutuur]

And we don't want that to happen

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

right, he's done the testing, just waiting on a scanned copy of the read outs.

according to spec, the dci 1.5 pump is as we know not much anything good for 130 +
( safely 120hp )

1.8 pump in good working order can deliver penty for 160 and then will r****d to point of having to let off for the pump to catch up.

2.0 tdci pump ( if a bracket can be made to fit ) is good enough for 190-200hp on tap. he said he hasnt pushed the pump to hard to the pount of it retarding as the dci lump willl have destroyed itself by 190-200hp ( not proven as the dci lump hasnt been tunned as such )

he's knows someone done a piggy back set up on a dci 1.5 kangoo using an audi a3 CR pump and injectors and ecu ( 2000 year settup not PUMPE DUSE ) along side the original ecu for other management.

as far as injectors, plenty of injectors wil fit with the same setup for clamping and wiring BUT we have to watch the nozzle length as some with be smashed by the pistons due to sticking to far out the head. in otherwords, messure against a normal dci 1.5 length

 

[Tutuur]

Wow, that's great news mate! I have bought a 2.0 pump and what i've come to so far i think swapping the internals will be easy as f**k.

So 1 old 1.5 dci pump and a good used 2.0 tdci pump will give you a pump which never needs altering anymore!
My guess is the tiny little pistons which are 5,5mm in the dci would probably be bigger in the other pumps.


2 interesting images of the pump:

Pump detail

 

[Tutuur]

Just discovered the dci has mahle pistons

So i guess the rods are the weakest links in the bottom end...

 

[Tutuur]

Sorry, they're not. They are federal mogul although there is a set of mahle pistons on ebay for the k9k

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

nice set of H beam rods off something that are the same size to match pistons then?

im getting excited with looking up what parts can fit the dci. even found a geabox that will fit with an adaptor plate.

got a few pumps coming aswell, all suspected failed ones but in terms of seing what can be changed ( matched even ) into a 1.5 housing, im all go like doc brown and the flux capacitor

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Tutuur got a link for those pistons on ebay?

 

[Tutuur]

Here are the pistons:

http://www.onveutout.com/piston-mahle-montage-renault-25mm-bpd-243_321-744_2998_7701.html

i have a 2.0 tdci pump on my way and already have a spare dci one so i'll find out but i'm pretty sure it'll work.

rod length is ~134 woth 26/25mm small end and 47,6 bigend. Valves are 33,5in and 29 out.
not bad considering the 1.9 tdi valves are 36in and 33out

 

[Tutuur]

Oops, sorry they weren't on ebay but i think the standard pistons will be more then strong enough.
I'm getting more and more confident the k9k could handle some big power as long as we keep the torque down low somewhat capped.
to spare clutch and gearbox too ofcourse!

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

circa 400quid for a set of strong pistons isnt bad considering vag tdi veriants are almost double that!
was looking on a china supplier site , they dow two sets, the ones like you have found ( mahle )and the other ones are looks to be solid pistons without machining around outer gudgin pin hole.

im looking for rods now, hopefuly a diesel engine somewhere shares the same specs as the dci lump.

crank 'should' hold up nicely, unless given death from cold and ragging the bolocks off it.

best to find a stronger box as a spare incase renaults favourite pox blows up lol.
saying that i dont know who has the stronger one still. you with the JR5 or me with the JC5

clutches are easy to get hold of. custom if needed.

 

[Tutuur]

Lol, imo when i compare the k9k vs tdi stuff 'by the looks of it' they seem to be strong enough.
i'll be going for an internal standard engine anyway as it's just the daily. Have enough projects on the side where i can spend my money on.

imo 150 will be pretty easy and 170-180 should be doable with a bigger turbo...

 

[Tutuur]

Jr5 is supposed to be stronger but who knows, i guess keeping the torque around 300nm max will do the trick.

i have a helix 172 pressure plate and a spare solid flywheel so i could try to fit it. Only concern i have now is it seems the jr5 release bearing has a completely different mating face.... Would be easier with a jc5!

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

imo, go for fueling and turbo mods first. if it caulses issue's with interal stress then either down tune or 'forge' bits to make it more stronger.

first thing im doing when the pump turns up is trying to swap internals over and then get dieselbob to bench test it.

(more for safty and reliability reasons ) the regulator would also need dialing in i suspect.

 

[Tutuur]

Don't think so, i think the regulator works on a closed-loop basis in conjuction with the rail sensor. Otherwise if the pump is getting worn thus supplying less pressure the rail will get less too.

so imo the regulator will be adjusted by the ecu.

my steps would be hybrid the pump and fit it. Then try to source crdi injectors and after that find me someone who can map them or further investigate in mapping it myself.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

if i was you, i would try find other alternitives to CRDI injectors. it was hard enough for me to find a good set lol , and ircc they might not be as good as i thought. ( reading up how weak the crdi injectors are. hairline cracks in injector housing )

custom nozzles for the dci ones is possible, wether the other parts will allow more fueling is a guess. imo highly possible and would save faffing about sourcing other injectors.

mapping shouldnt be to hard to do yourself. the software to do it wont be cheap tho?

 

[Tutuur]

That's one bit of the problem yes, the software....

It's just such a shame there is so little know about these delphi injectors. I guess some 2.0 tdci nozzles could be a nice swap.
didn't you have idle problems with crdi units? And how was economy?

btw, the hairline cracks is not a problem of the crdi injectors, it's the problem of all commonrail injectors!
hence the leakback tests done on all systems to diagnose problems...

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

yupp had to have the idle raised to ~ 1100 in the end. normal idle made the engine very lumpy.

was OK when running up the revs ( after mapping ) ecconomy was abit worse. say around high 48mpg. going for it made it drop down to 19mpg ( upto rev limmiter in each gear apart from fifth due to speed )

i know about hairline cracks being prominant ( sp ) on all CR injectors. 1.9dci are f**king anoying for it. ( crdi's did it for fun over 100k usage

lucky enough i have my old set of 1.5 injectors, and at work theres some delphi jag/mondeo injectors knocking about.
will see if the nozzles are interchange units. bodies are completely different tho so i hope the nozzles fit.

something else needs changing with the nozzle aswell, just cannot remember what.

 

[Tutuur]

Some kind of plate inside iirc. Please let me know mate. Guess the crdi ones are a bit overkill than.

2.0tdci nozzles onto dci injectors sound good to me.
if the pump is able to flow 200bhp i guess the injectors will too!

 

[MG cup]

You won't be able to play with different bits of injectors by yourselfs boys and that's 100% for sure, that's what I spent most of my time doing when the garage was quiet.

They are so finely setup that every time they are opened they need to be ran through a new simulation and given a brand new 16 digit code that tells the ecu its parameters.

Metering valve works with the rail sensor to control the pressure as you say, rail sensor. Commands and the metering valve gives.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

yupp bit overkill, only reason i got them was i had a crdi in work for a service and happend to notice the injectors are the same body and injector clamp ect ect ect.
found a set and got them, fired straight up after cracking the injector pipes off to bleed the system. bigger is not always better it seems

i'll strip one down when i have 10 mins spare at work and report back.

going of the mondeo forums, the 2.0 owners fit 2.2 nozzles to go more power ( dieselbob does this and does any other stuff to make the work ultra fine. so we must be able to go 1.5 injectors to 1.5 hybrid 2.0 nozzles.

EDIT: i'll still have a mess. more for my learning than actually making them work. these spare injectors i have are nacked anyhow. hence why they're no longer in an engine.

dieselbob can do the rest for me.

 

[Tutuur]

It just keeps getting better and better mate!