E36 3.0 ITB Race Build

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

That filter is hilarious mate.. You had Carbone Lorraine pads before?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Probably a true insight into how good the old engine was breathing oil out! Yeah I've had them in this since the start, and RC6 in the Mk1

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Didn't fancy a caliper upgrade then?

Or is there not one at a decent price?

P.s is the old oil cooler for sale?

Missed your post at the bottom of the other page!

I've already upgraded to the M3's from the stock 328i stuff. Plenty enough for it, great power with decent pads. 315mm x 30mm disc is plenty, and caliper only just fits under the 16" wheels really. The other common swap (which I had on my other E36) was the E46 330i/d kit, gives you a 320mm disc but its thinner, nowhere near 30mm thick.

You can go 4pots + bigger, slimmer caliper and bigger disc, but its not worth it for what I need, especially with the ABS deleted the current setup is great. Talking over a grand before you start with aftermarket stuff!

Yeah it can be. Good condition, I've cleaned it all out with de-greaser and its like new inside. It has BSP fittings on it standard, and I used BSP > JIC adaptors which il give with it too. Let me know!

 

[Jamie86]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Ah cool, I just seem to remember people saying bmw brakes aren't always the best, I think my mate ended up putting some daft expensive brakes on his e36 328 track car which has Sat in my spare garage for like a year since!

Pm me me a figure for the cooler

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Dropped you a PM. The non-M brakes are rubbish really, the M stuff is just bigger, thicker and beefier all round. You have to switch to M3 hubs to use them though, which I did anyway (other advantages as more camber/castor from the hub). Brembo HCs and CL's are plenty!

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

So going back to the reason for the ducts in the fog lights - I wanted to run some ducting to the brakes. I managed to get hold of some proper 2 ply silicone ducting at £4/m as its been splashed with red paint, much better than the usual £10+/m they charge for it!

To properly direct the airflow at the disc, rather than just having the pipe hanging about, I set about making a pair of brackets from others I had seen on the internet. The ducting is 65mm, as are the outlets on the fog light inserts. Started with some 3" exhaust pipe I had lying about..

Then a bit of 3mm flat bar, which was bent to 90 degrees and drilled..

This fits well over the upper shock bolt thread like so..

This allows the pipe to point directly at the disc..

These were then welded together and the fit was tested..

The reason for the angle on the 3" pipe at the end is to aid in the direction of the ducting. Once I had done both, they were cleaned up and painted..

I split some small fuel hose down the middle and attached it round the end where the ducting will enter, so the edges of the pipe do not cut into the ducting over time..

Bolted up the ducting enters, and is attached through some holes I drilled on the pipe so it cant slide any further in towards the disc..

Routing of the pipe with plenty excess bunched up to allow for movement... took advantage of the now unused brake like bracket in the arch for this..

Full lock, and a view from underneath..

Passenger side done also, ducting routes slightly differently due to the horn but still fits well..

Obviously I checked there was enough clearance when on full lock between the wheel and ducting, quite a lot of space there with these low offset wheels/15mm spacers. Worked out well for a cheap mod using bits I already had lying round and will be more functional than some old foglights!

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Started to feel like there was an issue earlier in the week, the engine felt less responsive under 3.5k, but above that it was sweet. It sort of felt exactly like my old engine, but I always put that down to the M3 exhaust manifolds and M50 inlet. Also I had some ticking from the injectors at idle, like they were batch firing and not sequentially firing as they should.

Anyway, I started to question the timing of the engine and various other things. I have most things spare, so changed the MAF over to no avail, checked the plugs which were all perfect, etc. Ended up loading up INPA and checking the analog sensor values to see if anything was amiss. I noticed the camshaft sensor was stuck at one value, around 18 degrees. It usually should flick between 16-20 degrees on idle, then if you increase the RPM it should head north of 40 degrees. Mine wasn't doing anything. Although, there was no fault code.

Simple enough I thought, swap it for my spare and it should show the correct values. Fitted the spare which was reading out at 80 degrees! and soon threw an 'out of range error code'. I cleared the code and it came right back, so that particular spare sensor is broken anyway. After some research I was unsure what to do, some people were saying it has to be the camshaft sensor, others saying the VANOS unit (which is brand new), or the VANOS solenoid (which I soon took out of the equation by swapping for a known working one and the engine was no different).

In the end I decided to stump up for a genuine camshaft sensor (not cheap!) and risk it. Fitted it this evening, and straight away the ticking had gone from the injectors, the idle was much smoother. Took it out and the low end torque is way different, tons more there, better than I ever remember it. Blown away by the performance of the engine now, 100x better over the whole rev range. Im actually now questioning myself whether the sensor was f*cked on the old engine too, as that was flat as a pancake up to 3.5k and I just thought it was the way it is!

 

[Chi]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

That's a result. .

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Had it up the top end of the RPM range many times now, be time to change the oil at the weekend and put some coolant in now I'm convinced there are no leaks. Should be good to go then... only a couple of weeks now until I can really put it through its paces!

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Started to feel like there was an issue earlier in the week, the engine felt less responsive under 3.5k, but above that it was sweet. It sort of felt exactly like my old engine, but I always put that down to the M3 exhaust manifolds and M50 inlet. Also I had some ticking from the injectors at idle, like they were batch firing and not sequentially firing as they should.

Anyway, I started to question the timing of the engine and various other things. I have most things spare, so changed the MAF over to no avail, checked the plugs which were all perfect, etc. Ended up loading up INPA and checking the analog sensor values to see if anything was amiss. I noticed the camshaft sensor was stuck at one value, around 18 degrees. It usually should flick between 16-20 degrees on idle, then if you increase the RPM it should head north of 40 degrees. Mine wasn't doing anything. Although, there was no fault code.

Simple enough I thought, swap it for my spare and it should show the correct values. Fitted the spare which was reading out at 80 degrees! and soon threw an 'out of range error code'. I cleared the code and it came right back, so that particular spare sensor is broken anyway. After some research I was unsure what to do, some people were saying it has to be the camshaft sensor, others saying the VANOS unit (which is brand new), or the VANOS solenoid (which I soon took out of the equation by swapping for a known working one and the engine was no different).

In the end I decided to stump up for a genuine camshaft sensor (not cheap!) and risk it. Fitted it this evening, and straight away the ticking had gone from the injectors, the idle was much smoother. Took it out and the low end torque is way different, tons more there, better than I ever remember it. Blown away by the performance of the engine now, 100x better over the whole rev range. Im actually now questioning myself whether the sensor was f*cked on the old engine too, as that was flat as a pancake up to 3.5k and I just thought it was the way it is!

Result man. Really need to get my INPA sorted lol.

Be interesting to see what values I get..

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Get it plugged in, only takes a couple of minutes now you've got the image on there!

 

[Rob]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

I've only read the last two pages, but I'll go back a little later and read the lot. Awesome work Jord, loving the brake cooling. and the general engineering feel of the whole thing!

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

I've only read the last two pages, but I'll go back a little later and read the lot. Awesome work Jord, loving the brake cooling. and the general engineering feel of the whole thing!

Much prefer making things than buying off the shelf parts where possible. Just a bit sh*t doing it on the driveway, but make the best of what you've got I guess.

After removing the scabby/old washer bottle from the engine bay when swapping the engine, I wanted a smaller alternative that was out of the way. After a wander round the scrapyard I found one from a Citroen C2 that looked about the right size.

I didn't get any pictures of the brackets I made but it mounts from the front bumper support, and sits in the front arch. They have a really long neck on them on the C2, which I cut a section out of and stuck it back together in the right position. Painted it black to stop the white tank sticking out like a sore thumb. Wired up the C2 pump to the BMW wiring and replaced the hose to the jets. Much tidier.

When swapping the engine, I knocked the heater control valve on the bulkhead and it's electrical connector snapped off. Managed to get a replacement from a breaker and swapped that over. Drained the water out that was in from running the engine in, and filled with proper coolant/bled through. All good.

Just and oil/filter change to do now, then its good to go.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Drained the mineral oil at the weekend and replaced with the usual SemiSynth I use, along with a new filter. Car runs cooler now (oil temp) as expected.

I switched the main cooling fan relay to use a permanent 12v source, and put in a manual override switch in the cabin so even if the car is turned off and the coolant is still too hot, the fan will continue to run until it drops enough. I also reprogrammed my oil temperature gauge to get the range of values I wanted, so I can quickly work out the exact temperature in degrees when I need to.

With a few trips coming up, including a day at Oulton, I wanted to get the alignment checked again, especially to check the front as the wishbones/balljoints have been changed since then. It was previously done at Blink Motorsport, who were recommended at the time. I tried to get another appointment but had no joy over the space of a month, no answer on the phones and no replies to e-mails, where previously I got very quick responses. Anyway, I decided to go elsewhere - a place in Liverpool with a Hunter system who just specialise in alignment, nothing else.

To recap, when I previously went to Blink, the completed printout gave the following:

Front Toe: 0
Front Camber L + R: -3.0deg
Rear Toe: 20min Total Toe In
Rear Camber L + R: -2.0deg

Which were the settings I provided and wanted at the time. This was September 2013. Drove straight as far as I could tell..

Now I knew the front toe would be out, as the whole front subframe, wishbones and balljoints have been swapped. The rear end has not been touched with a spanner since then, every thing is 'as it was', and at the time everything was brand new. Needless to say when we got the initial readout today I was quite disappointed..

Front camber is different L/R, and the wrong value. Top mounts have never been touched since it was originally set up. Rear camber is the wrong value on the rear also, but equal. Apparently a common mistake if the Hunter kit isn't calibrated properly... Front toe is out as mentioned above, but rear toe is p*ssed across the axle, even though its total is near enough correct (20min total). Caster can be ignored as its not adjustable.

Anyway, for now I just wanted the toe correct, so its not chewing through tyres. Did not want to go messing about with the camber (as its not a simple job on the fronts, takes time with fiddling). We got there in the end (Front camber is actually equal but we didn't do a final printout once the car had rolled off and back on)..

Eventually I will go back and add more camber, as now I know the true value its not really enough, probably 2.75F and 2.25R, but we'll see. It now drives how it should, much better than before (which I thought was OK anyway), and I'm questioning whether it was ever 'right' when I had it done at Blink. Looks like they got it 'near' then accepted that IMO.

I don't really understand how hard it can be to find somewhere that you can trust to get it perfect for the money these places charge, first time round? I've heard quite a few reports of various places in the NW doing poor jobs of late also!

 

[welshname]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Saw this on Facebook. The printout is all over the place. Luckily Drury Lane Garage is 6mins from here and does hunter alignment and they seem to get good reviews if I ever needed a decent setup doing.

At least it's sorted now anyway.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Shame really, as I recommended them to 15-20 people who actually ended up going there, when it may just be all along mine was out. Its a minefield though I guess, anyone can go and buy the system, but its if they know how to set it up and use it properly that matters - we're all just relying on word of mouth/recommendation in reality, which these days seems to be less reliable with the amount of cowboys out there!

 

[BIGASH]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

You are entitled to your opinion buddy but from my experience and everyone else that I know who have been there they have been great. I’ve had them do full setup on mine a few times last year and always driven mint and been bang on when checked with camber gauge at circuit on flat floor and strings. They have always taken the time to things properly and even getting things to the smallest of details so can’t see them not doing on yours. Bit odd about lack of response from them though which is a shame to hear

Settling in components with even fractions of a MM have a huge affect on camber as i’m sure you are aware and change in camber then affects the toe. Not trying to make excuses but I feel it’s not fair to blame Blink for settings being out now when its been on track since. By all means if it had been out and not been driven hard in between then banged to rights IMO.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Im not 'blaming' them, I just don't agree that they put proper effort in doing it bang on in the first place considering whats happened now. I was messed around originally, as I was booked in and got a phone call after i'd already left saying can I delay it by X hours as the car before me was taking a while (someone was actually someone from on here), which is fair enough, then when I eventually got on it seemed to be a bit of a rushed affair.

Like I say, I've recommended them to many many people since, who have been there, and had their stuff aligned, but I suppose no one knows what is 'correct' or not as long as it drives the way you think it should in your mind.... I thought mine was bang on when I took it from there and out on the track, but now not so much. Also quite a number of other people from this site have been there and had some issues to say the least, not that they have posted up about them mind.... Same with most tuners these days too I suppose.

Its not so much they set it wrong in the first place, as the sheet they gave me shows all the values I requested being correct... but its whether the kit is working correctly. As it goes the tools are only as good as the people using them, the place I have been today could be wrong also, who knows? Its a minefield.

 

[nikpro]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

With a few trips coming up, including a day at Oulton, I wanted to get the alignment checked again, especially to check the front as the wishbones/balljoints have been changed since then. It was previously done at Blink Motorsport, who were recommended at the time. I tried to get another appointment but had no joy over the space of a month, no answer on the phones and no replies to e-mails, where previously I got very quick responses. Anyway, I decided to go elsewhere - a place in Liverpool with a Hunter system who just specialise in alignment, nothing else.

To recap, when I previously went to Blink, the completed printout gave the following:

Front Toe: 0
Front Camber L + R: -3.0deg
Rear Toe: 20min Total Toe In
Rear Camber L + R: -2.0deg

Which were the settings I provided and wanted at the time. This was September 2013. Drove straight as far as I could tell..

Now I knew the front toe would be out, as the whole front subframe, wishbones and balljoints have been swapped. The rear end has not been touched with a spanner since then, every thing is 'as it was', and at the time everything was brand new. Needless to say when we got the initial readout today I was quite disappointed..

Front camber is different L/R, and the wrong value. Top mounts have never been touched since it was originally set up. Rear camber is the wrong value on the rear also, but equal. Apparently a common mistake if the Hunter kit isn't calibrated properly... Front toe is out as mentioned above, but rear toe is p*ssed across the axle, even though its total is near enough correct (20min total). Caster can be ignored as its not adjustable.

Anyway, for now I just wanted the toe correct, so its not chewing through tyres. Did not want to go messing about with the camber (as its not a simple job on the fronts, takes time with fiddling). We got there in the end (Front camber is actually equal but we didn't do a final printout once the car had rolled off and back on)..

Eventually I will go back and add more camber, as now I know the true value its not really enough, probably 2.75F and 2.25R, but we'll see. It now drives how it should, much better than before (which I thought was OK anyway), and I'm questioning whether it was ever 'right' when I had it done at Blink. Looks like they got it 'near' then accepted that IMO.

I don't really understand how hard it can be to find somewhere that you can trust to get it perfect for the money these places charge, first time round? I've heard quite a few reports of various places in the NW doing poor jobs of late also!

We are always very disappointed to hear that customers aren't satisfied with the work carried out on their vehicles - we take great pride in the work we do so we DO like to hear if there is something wrong and we will do our best to resolve it.

In respect to our equipment; Suspension geometry is our main specialist area and is exactly why we purchased the best equipment we could. Further to this we have the callibration of the aligner and the ramps tested every six months by Pro-Align to ensure it is calibrated correctly and this is all certified by Pro-Align. Pro-Align keeps records of this so we are quite sure our aligner is in the very best condition.

With regards to the alignment on this car; the OP has changed several suspension parts on the front of the car that will cause the alignment to change (New Wishbones, ball joints and subframe according to emails received!!) and quite rightly he has had it checked after carrying out this work. We would never expect the alignment to stay the same after this work and therefore we feel the accusation of it being 'all over the place' are very unfair! The current measurements on the rear show the same rear camber as we set but toe is out; it does however say at the top of the screen a rear target is blocked so the readings can not be relied apon!!)

We also expect the alignment to change on a car with use; hence why our race cars receive a Geo before every outing.

I'm not quite sure if the OP has fallen out with us though? We put a lot of effort into every Geo (hence why we were probably running slightly late on the day you had yours done) and in respect to not answering emails - here is the email train from the OP; I'll let forum users decide (we wouldn't normally do this but the accusations are taken quite seriously by us)

Fraser
BLiNK Motorsport




Email Train: (Start from bottom and work upwards!)

Hi Richard,

Have you got an afternoon free in the coming weeks by any chance? I'm only really after a check and possibly an adjustment in front toe if anything has changed since last time (new balljoints + wishbones fitted). No adjustment elsewhere unless something has moved.

I can do any PM time to suit from 17 May > 22nd May, if you have anything that fits?

Cheers,

XXXXX


On 18 March 2014 16:45, BLiNK Motorsport <mail@blinkmotorsport.com> wrote:
Hi XXXX,

Unfortunately we cant do anything until the 22nd of April now as we are mega busy with the start of the race season. So it would have to be this Thursday, or later on in April.

Cheers,

Richard
BLiNK Motorsport Ltd.
01606 212326


On 18 March 2014 15:37, XXXXX> wrote:
Hi Richard,

Might be struggling for Thursday afternoon now, we've run over on a job at work. Is there anything available Friday, or the Friday after (27th)?

Cheers if you can let me know,

XXXXX


On 4 March 2014 19:00, XXXXX> wrote:
Afternoon of the 20th is good for me Richard,
Cheers
On 4 Mar 2014 18:49, "BLiNK Motorsport" <mail@blinkmotorsport.com> wrote:
Hi XXXXX,

Any of those days are OK at the moment - 18th,19th or 20th. Take your pick at let me know.

Cheers,

Richard
BLiNK Motorsport Ltd.
01606 212326


On 3 March 2014 20:40, XXXXX> wrote:
Hi Richard,
No worries. Unfortunately im away on the 22nd! Could you possibly do it one afternoon during the week? It still drives as well as it did, but I just want to be sure its right!
Maybe 18th/19th/20th?
Cheers,
Jordan

On 3 Mar 2014 18:37, "BLiNK Motorsport" <mail@blinkmotorsport.com> wrote:
Hi XXXXX,

We cant do the 15th unfortunately. The next available Saturday morning is the 22nd. Is this any good for you?

Cheers,

Richard
BLiNK Motorsport Ltd.
01606 212326


On 27 February 2014 22:08, XXXXX> wrote:
Hi Richard,

You did my E36 alignment late last year (Black with orange powdercoated bits), did a few track days and it was great. I've changed a few bits over (new balljoints/wishbones/subframe on the front only) and would hopefully like to get the alignment checked again if at all possible?

Just wondering when you might be able to fit it in, do you do Saturday mornings? Maybe the 15th?

Cheers if you can let me know!

XXXXX

 

[nikpro]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

And a few quotes from just after you had the alignment at BLiNK:

Lots of grip and balance, very predictable as to what its doing. Putting that down to having proper alignment and new bushes everywhere. Steering is precise, turn in/direction change spot on. Need to look at damping settings for fine tuning, only had a quick play on the day as I wanted to just drive it! Brakes were great, surprised with the YellowStuffs that I have never rated before.

Really impressed with how it has come together. Lots of fun to drive!




Still can't get over how well this car drives. Cheers for the few laps and sorry again for my contribution to the tyre!

Just need to find me one now so it can be like the olden days!




One reason really..

Clio = Front Toe + Camber adjustment, easy to get near-ish with wire
E36 = Rear Toe + Camber, Front Toe + Camber + Castor (not to mention the big difference in track width!)

It really did make a night and day difference. I thought I got it 'close', but when it actually went on the alignment system it was f*cking way way out LOL. Not a chance you could get it anywhere near DIY to be honest!




You have also had a rear wheel bearing replaced since the alignment!!

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

We are always very disappointed to hear that customers aren't satisfied with the work carried out on their vehicles - we take great pride in the work we do so we DO like to hear if there is something wrong and we will do our best to resolve it.

In respect to our equipment; Suspension geometry is our main specialist area and is exactly why we purchased the best equipment we could. Further to this we have the callibration of the aligner and the ramps tested every six months by Pro-Align to ensure it is calibrated correctly and this is all certified by Pro-Align. Pro-Align keeps records of this so we are quite sure our aligner is in the very best condition.

With regards to the alignment on this car; the OP has changed several suspension parts on the front of the car that will cause the alignment to change (New Wishbones, ball joints and subframe according to emails received!!) and quite rightly he has had it checked after carrying out this work. We would never expect the alignment to stay the same after this work and therefore we feel the accusation of it being 'all over the place' are very unfair! The current measurements on the rear show the same rear camber as we set but toe is out; it does however say at the top of the screen a rear target is blocked so the readings can not be relied apon!!)

We also expect the alignment to change on a car with use; hence why our race cars receive a Geo before every outing.

I'm not quite sure if the OP has fallen out with us though? We put a lot of effort into every Geo (hence why we were probably running slightly late on the day you had yours done) and in respect to not answering emails - here is the email train from the OP; I'll let forum users decide (we wouldn't normally do this but the accusations are taken quite seriously by us)

Fraser
BLiNK Motorsport

It takes much worse for me to fall out with someone, so no, I've not, I'm just disappointed on the whole. I appreciate your reply, and whoever sent you to this thread thanks, but its a shame you could only reply on a forum when comments were made.

Shame about having no reply to the last couple of e-mails I sent - there have been more since what you have posted on your 'email history', plus your top one does not even have a date on it! It was the 11th May. That also does not include when I phoned asking for Richard and never got a call back? This is the main reason I went elsewhere.

As I mentioned numerous times above and over the past pages, obviously the front end alignment would be out due to the component changes, which is the whole reason why I was having the alignment done again! Thats why I even mentioned that in one of the e-mails!

This does not explain the rear end though. When the car came to you, EVERYTHING was brand new, including wheel bearings, with a few hundred miles on. Yes, its been replaced since, but that was back then. That does not explain the camber being exactly bang on -0.25' out on both sides. Your 'final' printout to me showed -2.00', yet now its consistently out from the value I asked it to be set to on both sides.

Im sorry but it cant just 'move' either, due to the way those aftermarket camber arms are, nor are the other bushes going to 'sag' like a standard bush would. Also the rear toe on the side thats never had a new bearing too, was out. By the way, the rear target blocked was just on that print, I have one here where that message is not on, and the values are the same.

Yes, I did mention how good it was to drive back then, as I did in this thread too if you go back far enough, because it had come from never ever having it done before. The thing is, I had nothing to compare it to, so how was I supposed to tell any different? Now I've had it done again, it feels better than ever, more so than the first time round.

No doubt you will reply to this, but to be honest I'm not interested in getting into an argument, just like anyone else I have my own opinion, and I can post it if I see fit. Like I said, I've recommended your services to a lot of people over the past 6 months, and they have been to you for alignment. I didn't need to, and they would have gone elsewhere - I wouldn't have been doing that if I thought it was cr*p, thats why I'm just disappointed after the mainly lack of recent response and the inconsistencies with the values set.

After this, to be honest I think the whole alignment process is a complete minefield. Whats to say yours is correct over equipment elsewhere, or if the place I've been since is correct, or anywhere else for that matter. Yours might well be certified calibrated, as might every other place. Obviously each company will claim theres is perfect, and the people that religiously come to them, hence why I said the kit is only as good as the people using it, like with a lot of things.

 

[nikpro]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Jordan,

we really do care about the service we provide to our customers and hence the reply at 02.30 in the morning, in fact I was so incensed by your post that I didn't get to sleep until after 05:00 hrs. (I don't know why you consider it poor service to try and ring you on the first occasion when we were running late?)

We are an extremely small business with one full time employee - Richard, we try as hard as we can to fit people into our schedule wherever possible but sometimes this just isn't possible.

I don't know why you find it strange that we should reply to comments like yours on a Forum when they are quite Def'a'mous and untrue!

I think the email train clearly shows your original accusation about us not answering emails is just not true - your last email was indeed sent on the 11th may; Just two weeks ago and a weekend that we were actually away racing at Angelsey so you would not have got an instant reply and the answer phone message left by ourselves would have explained this!

We did speak to you though and said we had nothing available for the next month (you do mention this in your first post!) so, quite rightly you went some where else.

In respect to the readings - if you expect an alignment to stay the same over 7+ months of track work then I am afraid you are sadly mistaken! We would be more surprised to see the alignment the same! (especially after a wheel bearing change) Further to this; Poly bushes are not the 'B all and end all' - they are notorious for exactly this which is why we recommend either OEM or Super-Pro bushes.

When you visited us you stated that the Car was normally used with two persons on board so we weighted the car for this - this is something we know Drury lane do not do as we have just had a customer that has been there very recently!

When the car is weighted and the suspension compresses it gains negative camber (and quite a lot on a BMW!!) hence why the cambers are still even but 0.15 degrees below what we set it to as the latest measurements were carried out with no weight in the car!

The other very strange thing in your post is I really don't understand why you have a printout showing the front cambers all over the place from Drury lane then state it isn't like that when we rolled it off and back on! It takes 1 second to print out the current alignment??

You are more than entitled to your opinion and we respect that but when you post untrue comments about a very small business on an Internet forum and don't expect any form of reply I find that very strange!

I hope this helps.

P.S. can you show the original alignment printout we did for you?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Jordan,

we really do care about the service we provide to our customers and hence the reply at 02.30 in the morning, in fact I was so incensed by your post that I didn't get to sleep until after 05:00 hrs. (I don't know why you consider it poor service to try and ring you on the first occasion when we were running late?)

We are an extremely small business with one full time employee - Richard, we try as hard as we can to fit people into our schedule wherever possible but sometimes this just isn't possible.

I don't know why you find it strange that we should reply to comments like yours on a Forum when they are quite Def'a'mous and untrue!

I think the email train clearly shows your original accusation about us not answering emails is just not true - your last email was indeed sent on the 11th may; Just two weeks ago and a weekend that we were actually away racing at Angelsey so you would not have got an instant reply and the answer phone message left by ourselves would have explained this!

We did speak to you though and said we had nothing available for the next month (you do mention this in your first post!) so, quite rightly you went some where else.

I'm sorry but its not untrue. I never had a response from you since e-mailing on the 11th May. I also emailed in the coming days after that and never had a reply between. Also no return call.

In reference to you saying you were busy for a month, that was April, as it was the start of the season, which is fine! I'm talking about the past two weeks since emailing on the 11th. I don't expect an instant reply, just one within a week would be nice, even if you were busy in the workshop a message saying so would have been good.

In respect to the readings - if you expect an alignment to stay the same over 7+ months of track work then I am afraid you are sadly mistaken! We would be more surprised to see the alignment the same! (especially after a wheel bearing change) Further to this; Poly bushes are not the 'B all and end all' - they are notorious for exactly this which is why we recommend either OEM or Super-Pro bushes.

When you visited us you stated that the Car was normally used with two persons on board so we weighted the car for this - this is something we know Drury lane do not do as we have just had a customer that has been there very recently!

The car had no weight added when done at yours, I know this as I brought tyres/wheels with me and they were removed to be fitted by yourselves, and the car was empty as I watched the whole process.

I've never been to Drury Lane, that was another member (welshname) mentioning that he had his done there.

When the car is weighted and the suspension compresses it gains negative camber (and quite a lot on a BMW!!) hence why the cambers are still even but 0.15 degrees below what we set it to as the latest measurements were carried out with no weight in the car!

The other very strange thing in your post is I really don't understand why you have a printout showing the front cambers all over the place from Drury lane then state it isn't like that when we rolled it off and back on! It takes 1 second to print out the current alignment; in fact it is impossible to print the mid stage out so I can't see this being correct!

The printout isn't from Drury Lane, I've never been.

You are more than entitled to your opinion and we respect that but when you post untrue comments about a very small business on an Internet forum and don't expect any form of reply I find that very strange!

I hope this helps.

Sorry but I've been truthful in what I've said with regards to communication, having not had any response since 11th May, until the reply here.

Anyway I could continue, but I don't think its needed. Thanks for the reply and information, I wish you and Richard all the best for the future.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

P.S. can you show the original alignment printout we did for you?

http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag137/f0xxxxxy/E36/Scan1_zpse397e603.jpeg

 

[welshname]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

nikpro

I think you've done worse to give yourself a bad name by coming in here. The best solution would have been to apologise and invite Jord back for you to check the new values he's had from elsewhere against your system to prove your alignment gear is spot on.

This way you could show your gear is up to scratch.

The way to get yourself a good name is not to come in and try to belittle the person that's unhappy with your service but to show that you care about peoples opinions and want to make up for any mistakes. Especially for a small business. Currently you've got one bad review on here but NO ONE is going to want to deal with someone who carries themselves like you do. Reputation is as much about how good your service is as it is your customer service.

 

[Saner]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

I'm not as technically minded as Jord. I also agree in part with welshname about conduct.

But my 2 pence is that alignment does change. I have had numerous cars that I have had re-done every 6 moths and there are always changes.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

That's fair enough. I accepted it to be out on the front at least, as mentioned. Never had to deal with this on Clio's tbh, never had the problem.

As described above I was more so interested in the rear, as the camber is fixed and the height/weight has not changed. If its somehow changed itself then thats obviously the issue.. But for it to be exactly -0.25 on both sides is a bit weird, I'd understand if it was two completely different readings..

 

[nikpro]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

I'm sorry if it comes across this way - it isn't meant to be belittling, just to highlight some facts from our point of view, we are very concerned when a customer isn't happy and we always try to work a solution out with them.
if we didn't care we wouldn't have bothered replying to this.

Hope this helps

 

[nikpro]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

That's fair enough. I accepted it to be out on the front at least, as mentioned. Never had to deal with this on Clio's tbh, never had the problem.

As described above I was more so interested in the rear, as the camber is fixed and the height/weight has not changed. If its somehow changed itself then thats obviously the issue.. But for it to be exactly -0.25 on both sides is a bit weird, I'd understand if it was two completely different readings..

Jordan
how much weight was added to the vehicle for the current alignment?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

We did not add any weight, this was because it never had any in the first place. I was asked this before we started on the day. Weight of the car as a whole remains the same

 

[nikpro]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Hi Jordan,

as as said earlier this will explain why the rear cambers are lower than what we have set - we always weight the vehicle to the weight it will be used at - this is very important.

The rear camber on the BMW increases as the suspension is compressed and 0.15 degrees isn't much at all.

we wouldn't expect the toe to stay the same over the period you have been using the car especially with a bearing change - again we Geo race cars after every round as we know they can and do change.

sorry for anymisunderstanding

 

[Saner]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

@nikpro , Jord states above that the car was not weighted when you did alignment.

This will continue to go round in circles I fear.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

@nikpro , Jord states above that the car was not weighted when you did alignment.

Correct, 100% no weight was added.

It doesn't matter now anyway, I know the rear camber changes a LOT with weight/movement, as I've had the GoPro on the back wheel on track, and the camber changes a lot. At the end of the day this is how BMW designed it, the toe/camber change under load to give more grip. Its the same with the E46.

But statically with the same height/weight car, it should be the same. Either way it has been left for now as it was equal on both sides, I might add more in the future.

 

[nikpro]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

This will continue to go round in circles I fear.

We don't want this to happen as it fairly pointless - we will have to disagree on the contact matter; we have produced the email conversations we have had with Jordan - he states there were others since the 11th but we have no record of those.

Anyway, in respect to the alignment I would like to clarify a few points to help other people understand the Hunter machine and how we carry out an alignment.

Jordan states heasked us to put the following settings onto the car:

Front Toe: 0
Front Camber L + R: -3.0deg
Rear Toe: 20min Total Toe In
Rear Camber L + R: -2.0deg

and this is the printout from that alignment session:

The Hunter system that we have is the top of the range Hunter Elite imaging aligner - the settings can not be altered by the user in any way; what is shown on that printout is what was on the car when it left us. (Assuming the aligner is callibrated correctly).

How we carry out the alignment:

(1) EVERY car that we align we ask what the normal load will be during use - we ALWAYS add weight for the driver and have weightlifting weights for this but Jordan specifically stated he usually carries a passenger as well on his trackdays so this was also added. Weighting a car for use is critical for accurant alignment otherwise you will not get the correct settings on the vehicle - it would be like corner weighting without the driver. (Yes the wheels would definitely have been removed but a Known weight added)

(2) An initial check would have been carried out giving us all the angles currently on the vehicle and includes a run-out compensation for the wheels

(3) The angles are adjusted to spec.

To get an alignment as accurate as the printout we provided above takes some considerable time so it certainly wasn't a rushed job - anyone who has watched the alignment being carried out knows how sensitive the aligner is! (We allow all customers to watch the alignment so they can see the work involved and everything that is happening)

After 8 months of track use Jordan has complained that the settings moved to this:

I think we have now agreed that the front suspension is irrelevant since all the components (Subframe/wishbones/ball joints) have been swapped with different components.

Rear Axle:

(1) the rear toe has actually only changed by 2 minutes in the same direction. 2 Minutes is actually an incredibly small amount and would not be far off the width of a human hair! (anyone who has a vernier put it to 0.3mm and see how small an amount that is, and this is at a wheel rim) The fact that it has moved in the same direction would indicate something has slipped ever so slightly; we would expect this on a trackday car after eight months of use (In fact we are quite surprised it has only moved by such a small amount). The fact that all the components were as new and powder coated, usually means they may move considerably. (further to this there has been a wheel bearing change).

(2) Regarding the Rear camber, I know Jordan has said it is 0.25 degrees on a couple of occasions from what he asked from us but the reading shows only a difference 0f 0.15 degrees, which again is a small amount. We still are adamant that weight was added to the car and this is why there is this difference. Even a different level of fuel in the tank would get close to this difference.

We are truly sorry you feel the way you do Jordan - you have brought us a lot of business and we are very grateful for it - we certainly are not in the lucky position where we can turn work away and it is a great shame you feel the communications/service faultered on these occasions. We take great care in our alignments and try our very best to resolve issues as some members here have hopefully experienced. The Hunter machine is exceptionally good but we know it is not fallible. We have it calibrated twice as often as recommended so it is kept in as good a working condition as possible.

I hope this helps explains and we apologise if any of my posts offended anyone.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

We don't want this to happen as it fairly pointless - we will have to disagree on the contact matter; we have produced the email conversations we have had with Jordan - he states there were others since the 11th but we have no record of those.

I'm not sure why you are missing this, but you've only shown the e-mail history up to my message on the 11th May, the point I was making I never received a response from you since that. The rest of the history is irrelevant, I only mentioned recent issues with communication. If you never received my other messages since then so be it, but you never replied to that message on the 11th May.

Anyway, in respect to the alignment I would like to clarify a few points to help other people understand the Hunter machine and how we carry out an alignment.

Jordan states heasked us to put the following settings onto the car:

Front Toe: 0
Front Camber L + R: -3.0deg
Rear Toe: 20min Total Toe In
Rear Camber L + R: -2.0deg

and this is the printout from that alignment session:

...

The Hunter system that we have is the top of the range Hunter Elite imaging aligner - the settings can not be altered by the user in any way; what is shown on that printout is what was on the car when it left us. (Assuming the aligner is callibrated correctly).

How we carry out the alignment:

(1) EVERY car that we align we ask what the normal load will be during use - we ALWAYS add weight for the driver and have weightlifting weights for this but Jordan specifically stated he usually carries a passenger as well on his trackdays so this was also added. Weighting a car for use is critical for accurant alignment otherwise you will not get the correct settings on the vehicle - it would be like corner weighting without the driver. (Yes the wheels would definitely have been removed but a Known weight added)

Sorry but you added no weight whatsoever, as I mentioned in the past few posts. I was there stood next to the car for the whole process. I even helped with adjusting the front camber! I had not long removed my spare wheels from the car before the alignment as you were fitting tyres to them for me, and no weight of any kind was added. Please don't try and tell me there was, because it just never happened. You may do for other people, or since then, but you certainly didn't on mine.

(2) An initial check would have been carried out giving us all the angles currently on the vehicle and includes a run-out compensation for the wheels

(3) The angles are adjusted to spec.

To get an alignment as accurate as the printout we provided above takes some considerable time so it certainly wasn't a rushed job - anyone who has watched the alignment being carried out knows how sensitive the aligner is! (We allow all customers to watch the alignment so they can see the work involved and everything that is happening)

After 8 months of track use Jordan has complained that the settings moved to this:

...

I think we have now agreed that the front suspension is irrelevant since all the components (Subframe/wishbones/ball joints) have been swapped with different components.

Rear Axle:

(1) the rear toe has actually only changed by 2 minutes in the same direction. 2 Minutes is actually an incredibly small amount and would not be far off the width of a human hair! (anyone who has a vernier put it to 0.3mm and see how small an amount that is, and this is at a wheel rim) The fact that it has moved in the same direction would indicate something has slipped ever so slightly; we would expect this on a trackday car after eight months of use (In fact we are quite surprised it has only moved by such a small amount). The fact that all the components were as new and powder coated, usually means they may move considerably. (further to this there has been a wheel bearing change).

(2) Regarding the Rear camber, I know Jordan has said it is 0.25 degrees on a couple of occasions from what he asked from us but the reading shows only a difference 0f 0.15 degrees, which again is a small amount. We still are adamant that weight was added to the car and this is why there is this difference. Even a different level of fuel in the tank would get close to this difference.

We are truly sorry you feel the way you do Jordan - you have brought us a lot of business and we are very grateful for it - we certainly are not in the lucky position where we can turn work away and it is a great shame you feel the communications/service faultered on these occasions. We take great care in our alignments and try our very best to resolve issues as some members here have hopefully experienced. The Hunter machine is exceptionally good but we know it is not fallible. We have it calibrated twice as often as recommended so it is kept in as good a working condition as possible.

I hope this helps explains and we apologise if any of my posts offended anyone.

Thanks for the explanation and taking time to write a full response, but I've made my points again above which seem to be getting ignored. Nevermind.

 

[nikpro]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

I'm not sure why you are missing this, but you've only shown the e-mail history up to my message on the 11th May

In your original post you stated this:

I tried to get another appointment but had no joy over the space of a month, no answer on the phones and no replies to e-mails

The email train is important because it does show that you HAD received responses and there were NO emails after the 11th May. I would have been very surprised if there were any emails after the 11th May because I spoke to you on the phone and said the dates you were after weren't available!!

Sorry but you added no weight whatsoever, as I mentioned in the past few posts.

We have added weight as to cars since we started alignments over ten years ago.

Why would there be a difference in the ride heights of your car in these pictures (The pic on the Ramps is taken looking up which normally makes the ride height look higher):

We don't intend to post any further on this subject - we have tried to explain as fully as we can.

HTH

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

In your original post you stated this:

The email train is important because it does show that you HAD received responses and there were NO emails after the 11th May. I would have been very surprised if there were any emails after the 11th May because I spoke to you on the phone and said the dates you were after weren't available!!

Sorry, I'm not having that. You never spoke to myself about appointments on the phone, you're either getting confused or thinking of someone else. When I phoned, I simply asked for Richard, and told I would get a call back. No discussion of dates took place verbally.

The e-mail train shows that you said you were busy for most of the month in April, as it was the start of race season. I then said I was unable to get an appointment, as you have quoted, which is true, as you had nothing that suited for when I was free.

Thats why I am on about not getting a response since then. We're in May now, April is over. The so called 'busy month' has passed. Hence a new email. Even the content of the email is ASKING about an appointment, why wouldn't it get a reply? Thats just a stupid statement to make. I don't see why you're getting confused, its simple!

We have added weight as to cars since we started alignments over ten years ago.

I'm afraid not on this occasion, I even asked the person that was with me on the day and they even confirmed it. You can keep saying the opposite, but I know the fact is that.

Why would there be a difference in the ride heights of your car in these pictures (The pic on the Ramps is taken looking up which normally makes the ride height look higher):

Because you can clearly see they are a different set of wheels and tyres. The set on the ramps, is the normal road tyres. These are 205/50/16. You tracked it on these.

The other picture is a completely different set of wheels, with Federal 595RSR on them, in a completely different profile and size. You even fitted these tyres to the wheels at the time!

The subsequent tracking last week was done on the road tyres, so exactly the same as when it was done at yours. As below:

If you had read, and understood any of the points I had made on each part properly, its as clear as day. I and everyone else can see you are skipping past them and picking out points of this thread that you factually know nothing about, like the above. Its making the whole image of yourself/company come across worse again, as I'm sure people will agree.

We don't intend to post any further on this subject - we have tried to explain as fully as we can.

HTH

That would be great. Thanks.

 

[Djw John]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Lol at this, can't beat continuing something on for days when it would've moved on by now and be water under the bridge!

 

[NorthloopCup]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

f**k me, that's enough to give a paracetamol a headache!! Lol

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

In other news..

At Oulton Park tomorrow. See how this new engine goes I guess!