E36 3.0 ITB Race Build

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

I meant the correct one to use with the m20 flywheel, e21 one or normal m20?

I'm using the stock M20 one. As far as I have read I think all the talk about the E21 is rubbish, and only required for the Getrag boxes. Will soon see.. Also the price from BMW is up to £80+ now I think and special order (2-4 weeks)..

Do I see INPA on a Macbook there mate?

Couldn't sort me out with the software could you? I have a VAG KKL Cable from my Ibiza, I believe these can be modified for the E36 INPA interface. Is that what you did?

Yeah - well I run Windows XP inside the Mac, then INPA on the Windows XP. The cables are hit and miss, mine was the VAGCOM cable from my B5 Passat, and I just used a cheap BMW adaptor<>OBD2 connector off Amazon..

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 v2

I'm using the stock M20 one. As far as I have read I think all the talk about the E21 is rubbish, and only required for the Getrag boxes. Will soon see.. Also the price from BMW is up to £80+ now I think and special order (2-4 weeks)..



Yeah - well I run Windows XP inside the Mac, then INPA on the Windows XP. The cables are hit and miss, mine was the VAGCOM cable from my B5 Passat, and I just used a cheap BMW adaptor<>OBD2 connector off Amazon..

Cheers bud, I'll have a look..

MIGHT NEED IT TO PROGRAM THE CRUISE CONTROL YOU SEE. :approve:

 

[sbridgey]

Re: E36 v2

You wont.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

I can talk you through it pretty easily. Get one of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0054FJEDK/?tag=cliospnet01-21

Then if you have a Macbook install a program called VirtualBox. I have a premade file for this, which is Windows XP with INPA already installed. I can upload it for you to download, and all you will have to to is open the file in VirtualBox, then connect. No setup/faffing of INPA required as I have already done the messing about.

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 v2

You wont.

I know lol, just reminding Mr f0xxyyy

I can talk you through it pretty easily. Get one of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0054FJEDK/?tag=cliospnet01-21

Then if you have a Macbook install a program called VirtualBox. I have a premade file for this, which is Windows XP with INPA already installed. I can upload it for you to download, and all you will have to to is open the file in VirtualBox, then connect. No setup/faffing of INPA required as I have already done the messing about.

Sweet, I use VitrualBox for my VMs at work That would be awesome mate. I'll give you a shout when I have my cables.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Cool ideal. Well its just a preconfigured .VDI, so you just need to create a new VM and use the .VDI as the hard disk image and you are good to go. Given it to a few other people like that with no issues!

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 v2

Cool ideal. Well its just a preconfigured .VDI, so you just need to create a new VM and use the .VDI as the hard disk image and you are good to go. Given it to a few other people like that with no issues!

Yeah cool, we do the same with some of the builds at work. Awesome when work and hobbys collide! Hah.

Do I definitely need that 20pin adapter with mine being a 1999 car I thought it would have the ODBII connection? Or can that only be used for emissions?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Yeah cool, we do the same with some of the builds at work. Awesome when work and hobbys collide! Hah.

Do I definitely need that 20pin adapter with mine being a 1999 car I thought it would have the ODBII connection? Or can that only be used for emissions?

We only use ESXi/VMWare really, which is no good on a PC/Mac - Virtualbox is the best alternative really, very good and even better being free

Mines a '98 but I'm not sure when the brought the OBD2 connector in, or if it actually does anything. If you have the 20pin under the bonnet I'd go with that..

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 v2

We only use ESXi/VMWare really, which is no good on a PC/Mac - Virtualbox is the best alternative really, very good and even better being free

Mines a '98 but I'm not sure when the brought the OBD2 connector in, or if it actually does anything. If you have the 20pin under the bonnet I'd go with that..

Yeah I have the 20pin, so will get the ODB connector. Cheers pal

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 v2

OBD**

Keep thinking I'm buying a Wu Tang connector

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Full day on it today and only half way there.. if anyone attempts this on a driveway have plenty of help on hand, its not an easy job by any means!

I removed the inlet manifold for easy access to the starter motor/wiring to begin with. Then removed the exhaust, propshaft, shift linkage, clutch slave cylinder etc.

Removed the gearbox mount and dropped the box down on an angle to gain better access to the bolts for the bellhousing. They are pretty hard to get to, especially if all your sound deadening had fell down like mine (so I ripped it all off), get the car as high as possible to get a full turn on a breaker bar. You'l need at least 2-3 10" 1/2" Drive extensions too, linked together. Combination of E-torx bits, E10/12/14. I snapped one of the bolts when undoing it, so its stuck in the block now (not that it matters as the engine is being replaced, but not ideal).

Once all the bolts are undone, we wiggled the box from the engine. Not a simple task lying on your back to say the least, but it came off onto the jack quite easily.

The release bearing was completely knackered as expected, metal on metal where the rotating bearing is. DMF + Clutch still fitted..

Everything looks to be original, so I'm guessing the box has never been off. Removed the clutch and flywheel..

Only to find the pressure plate was completely knackered also, 2 of the 3 rivets/attachments for the clutch face had completely sheared..

Then as per it started to rain... Fitted the new flywheel and clutch with the new bolts. No pics of this as we were just getting on with it. Attempted to get the box back on for a couple of hours, but it got dark and the rain never stopped so its been left off for today. Nightmare trying to get the right angle/position under the car. Hopefully a fresh start tomorrow will see it onto the block and everything bolted back on!

 

[welshname]

Re: E36 v2

Good work. Looks like a proper effort to do on the drive, not fun.

Fingers crossed for good weather for you tomorrow.

 

[JoeyD]

Re: E36 v2

Fml.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

All done, finally. Big job, do not attempt it on your own for sure! If you've never done anything that size of job before, allow 2+ days.

The 323i E21 taller release bearing is 100% NOT required. Clutch is perfect, biting point right in the middle. Lightened flywheel is much better too.

Didn't take any pics as I just wanted it done. Make sure you have a perfectly fitting clutch alignment tool, or you'l never get the box back on. I had to modify mine to get it to fit perfectly central, even then the box was still tough to lift back into place, line up and get fully on with two people.

Any questions about it just ask....

 

[welshname]

Re: E36 v2

Out of interest what alignment tool do you have?

I've got some shitty draper one which didn't hold the pressure plate and clutch together in perfect alignment so it was useless. In the end I threw it on, left the pressure plate loose and used an extension bar to line it up.

Good work getting it all done BTW. Any downsides to swapping to single mass? I know in dervs you get a bit of a rattle and more vibrations but I've not experienced a single mass conversion in anything other than PD engined VAG's

 

[matt_132]

Re: E36 v2

Does it rev quicker now? Could you get a vid?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Out of interest what alignment tool do you have?

I've got some s**tty draper one which didn't hold the pressure plate and clutch together in perfect alignment so it was useless. In the end I threw it on, left the pressure plate loose and used an extension bar to line it up.

Good work getting it all done BTW. Any downsides to swapping to single mass? I know in dervs you get a bit of a rattle and more vibrations but I've not experienced a single mass conversion in anything other than PD engined VAG's

Cheap one from Machine Mart, just had to get the right size for the crank pilot bearing so modified the diameter with tape to get it a mega tight fit, then used the clutch disk part to centre that and torque the cover plate up.

No downsides really, the Getrag transmissions suffer from a bit of input shaft rattle at idle but no issues. Mine (ZF box) is silent, just as it was before. Clutch feel is much better too. I had issues with 1st/reverse being stiff to engage since I bought the car, I always thought it was the box, but it turns out it must have been the clutch - all the gears are smooth and perfect now!

Does it rev quicker now? Could you get a vid?

On idle, revving it yes. The DMF weighed on its own 12.5kg, the SMF is just over 5kg. I've not driven it 'properly' yet as im having issues with hesitation now, but I've given up for today. Think something may just be unplugged.

 

[matt_132]

Re: E36 v2

Good result all in all then! Something to add onto the list for mine.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Il get some video up this week at some point, it is completely different. The clutch feel is 1000% better IMO, and you have no longer got the slop from the DMF when you engage the clutch. The only other thing to note is the clutch stop (on the carpet behind the pedal) needs extending, as if you really push it right to the floor you are bottoming out the clutch cover springs (as the total length of throw is longer than it needs to be). Apparently its just an M8 thread, so im going to have a quick look later and see what I can extend it with.

I also think I worked out why people think they need to use the longer release bearing - its quite possible they are buying the wrong clutch kit. When you have a single mass flywheel you have a sprung clutch plate, when you have a DMF you have an unsprung clutch plate.

The sprung clutch plate assembly (cover + friction disc) is taller than the unsprung DMF assembly. The unsprung clutch kit isn't as tall as the DMF is thicker in the first place. An unsprung clutch kit will still bolt up to a single mass flywheel (and some M20's did come with a DMF, so its possible to purchase an E30 kit that's wrong) but it will be very on-off. I think this height difference is why people use the longer release bearing to make up the space. If you buy the correct (sprung) clutch kit in the first place it works fine as I've now found out.

In the middle of doing the clutch I replaced both lambda sensors, as one was registering a heating error, and the other a signal error (as above on INPA). I got hold of 2 x Bosch four wire lambdas and wired them up to the stock connectors. The car would idle fine, but would not accelerate, and had huge hesitation.

It turns out there actually two different types of lambda sensors, which output signals in different formats. Zirconia and Titania are the types, the latter being the less commonly used. Most production cars now use the Zirconia type which output a voltage between 0-5v to the ECU. Which is what the Bosch ones I purchased are. The Titania is resistance based... and thats what the M52B28 uses. Needless to say they are quite expensive in comparison with the other type - but hopefully this might save someone making the same mistake in the future!

 

[welshname]

Re: E36 v2

Didn't the older (usually 2 wire with a third for the heating element) ones only tell you a single resistance measurement rather than giving a range? As in if it's working it reads one value and if it's not it reads another? I'd have put money on the e36 using the newer type, clearly not though

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Both types come in 2, 3 and 4 wire. E36 still uses 4 wire (Signal/Signal Earth/Heater/Heater Earth), but just a different format of signal (resistance) from the Titania type. Some new cars still use Titania ones, mainly Japanese cars. The Titania sensors are better, last longer and are quicker to react. The ECU provides a voltage and measures the voltage drop (resistance) across the sensor as to how much oxygen is in the exhaust gas... then calculates its changes Not so much an 'older type', just a different type of output.

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 v2

On idle, revving it yes. The DMF weighed on its own 12.5kg, the SMF is just over 5kg. I've not driven it 'properly' yet as im having issues with hesitation now, but I've given up for today. Think something may just be unplugged.

Can I have a go?

 

[jhot80]

Re: E36 v2

I've done a couple of 4pot e36 clutches and they were bad enough for access to the top bellhousing bolts. Ive seen a Ka with broken clutch straps before and was making a massive clanging noise when the clutch was disengaged was yours doing that?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Can I have a go?

Will sort something out when I eventually get this cruise control sorted...?

I've done a couple of 4pot e36 clutches and they were bad enough for access to the top bellhousing bolts. Ive seen a Ka with broken clutch straps before and was making a massive clanging noise when the clutch was disengaged was yours doing that?

It wasn't so much a clanging noise, but with the difference now I don't think it was disengaging fully (gears hard to select, and I thought it was the gearbox). I had a lot of noise with the clutch disengaged but it was the release bearing which was metal on metal when turned by hand. The DMF had quite a lot of rotational and 'loose' front to back play in the two pieces too which can't have been helping

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

This is where the noise was coming from..

 

[Matt Cup]

Re: E36 v2

I was half expecting you to throw an egg on your clutch at the end of that vid. :clown:

 

[matt_132]

Re: E36 v2

^Lol!

That's pretty shagged man, must have sounded awful.

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 v2

Will sort something out when I eventually get this cruise control sorted...?

Yeah... eventually :rasp:

 

[jhot80]

Re: E36 v2

Dual Mass Flywheels are supposed to have a small amount of freeplay in them. The flywheel looks fine. Everything else though is pretty shagged.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Yeah I know they should have rotational play, to help dampen clutch engagement, doesn't really show the bit of front-back play that it has. Either way DMF's suck, single mass is so much better.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Had these turned up from a set of drawings for a job that needs doing on the car soon - can anyone guess what they are?

 

[Whiteley]

Re: E36 v2

I can

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

So a few weeks ago I picked up a 'spare' ZF S5D310Z, removed from a 3.0 M3. As mentioned previously in this thread I had issues with very stiff gears on my current gearbox, so I'd been on the lookout for a spare. Ended up winning this one on eBay for good money. The 328i's came with a ZF box also, but the later S5D320Z, the only difference being the torque rating (310nm vs 320nm).

Which brings us onto the above tools... the ZF S5D boxes have issues with the detent springs/pins inside the box, causing stiff/hard to select gears, lever sitting to one side when in neutral, etc. These tools allow the new sleeves, pins and parts to be fitted from the outside of the box via the access caps dotted around. They are available from BMW, obviously not cheap, also available from the USA for around $60 (+ shipping/import/etc) so still not cheap.

Luckily some kind person had drawn the tools up with exact measurement on CAD, and put the files online. I then had a friend take them onto a CNC lathe and turn them into the tools you see above. Just need to get a set of springs, sleeves and pins now so the box will be sorted and ready to go in with the new engine. Will probably clean it up at the same time and put some fresh ATF in.

Ive been collecting parts over the past couple of weeks also, and now have the head/block back from the machine shop. The bores have been honed, the block decked and the head skimmed. Both of them then properly cleaned and now ready to build up..

Its quite crazy how light the bare block is, compared to an F4R, just under 21kg..

The bare head is about 18kg, so not much different again. Now to get on with building it up :approve:

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

After spending what seems like days cleaning and checking parts, sump, timing covers and other various bits I finally seem to be getting somewhere. Had the joys of burnt on oil and gunk to remove, then I pulled the old rings from the pistons and stripped them apart checking for wear. Then cleaned them, making sure the ring lands were perfect and re-assembling. Many hours later..

The block has also been painted, along with the sump and various other bits. Time to bolt it all together now :clown:

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 v2

Looking awesome man, great work.

 

[jhot80]

Re: E36 v2

If your using an F4R as your benchmark for engine weoght your prob gonna find most engine block seem light bar ford fox engine.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

F4 is light when empty compared to a lot of others too I guess, cast iron etc. Considering M52 is aluminium its gonna be lighter than a lot of others when empty, and a lot heavier (160kg) than a small 4pot when built

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

So last week, had a bit of a mishap with a piece of pavement in a car park, which resulted in a banana shaped wishbone. No major worry as I had the powdercoated ones ready for fitting. The rack felt a bit funny after it too (although the TRE and arm were still straight), so I thought I'd swap the lot at the same time.

Spent a while removing the old subframe/wishbones, steering rack, draining the power steering, then swapped the engine mounts to the new one..

Bolted it up to take the weight of the engine..

Pressed the new balljoints into the powdercoated wishbones..

Picked up an E46 '067' rack from eBay cheap, cleaned it up and gave it a paint.

Steering linkage bush replacement close up for those who asked a while ago..

Bolted it all up, along with the X-Brace and piped up the rack / replaced the PAS fluid..

Job done. I was going to wait until the engine was swapped to do the subframe/arms, but with the wishbone needing swapping it was easy enough to do the lot in one go.

The E46 rack is much better, heavier feel than the old high mile E36 rack, and less turns LTL so it feels 'quicker'. I get about 1.4 turns each way from the central position. Alignment will need double checking now at some point, but I doubt much adjustment will be required.

 

[matt_132]

Re: E36 v2

Awesome. Much difference with the brace?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 v2

Feels somewhat different yeah, its probably due to the steering being heavier with the E46 rack too though. True test will be Cadwell at the end of the month!