Engine Rebuild Project (260hp/ton)

[rdoxenham]

Hi All,

Thought I'd let everyone know what I'm doing with the Clio track-day car. I've met a load of you at track-days over the past year or so, and shown my stripped + lightened Clio 172 Cup.

I'm yet to get the car weighed properly but it's completely stripped and running full polycarbs, fibreglass panels, and fibreglass doors.

Aside from the exhaust, the current engine is relatively standard. To keep the car on the track, I've bought another spare engine from a fellow CS'er. It had low compression, but as I plan on doing a LOT to it I don't think it will matter. I'm in the process of taking it down to bits now before I do the following-

• Send block off to be bored and honed, going for 84mm oversize pistons with 12.8:1 (approx 2066cc)
• Send head off to be ported, polished, angle seats cut, cleaned up, etc.
• Order Catcams 423's with appropriate valve springs, considering VVT delete
• Order appropriate forged con-rods, bearings, and bolts
• Order throttle body kit (120mm trumpets, 48mm bodies)
• Order remaining rebuild items where appropriate

No doubt you will have seen this thread, I'm following it quite closely: http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?523216-260bhp-tonne-Clio

This is the engine that I got, which apparently "runs" just very badly - not bad for 40 quid (!)

And now, step one, get the block bored and ready for painting, and for that we need pistons...

I think I found the source of the low compression whilst I was taking the head off - the rocker was smashed to bits and the collet on the top of the valve was nowhere to be seen. I suspect that it was the pistons that were lifting the valves back up!

Anyway, plenty more to come, and will update this thread as I go! Thanks for reading, Rhys.

 

[Mar172]

Sounds good Rhys

 

[rdoxenham]

Thanks! It was a shame to take the cambelt off - it looked in mint condition, and suspect that it had been replaced quite recently!

 

[Tommo.]

Nice project, will follow with interest.

Have you done anything similar before?

 

[rdoxenham]

Nice project, will follow with interest.

Have you done anything similar before?

Nope, I haven't. I've been modifying cars for years, and worked quite a lot with some of the engine ancillaries, e.g. fitting turbos, manifolds, exhausts, and some of the easier jobs.

My plan is to do as much as I can myself, but I don't think I can be trusted to rebuild the engine completely, but we'll see how far I get

 

[sonny172cup]

Nice one buddy, look forward to seeing the results

 

[Martin.]

Awesome. Following with great interest.

 

[SharkyUK]

Have you decided on which rods, bearings, etc. you are going for yet mate?

260bhp/ton NA is ambitious and potentially expensive... I like it! Good luck with the build!

Watching the thread with interest... *thumbs up*

 

[welshname]

Sounds like if the belt was new then it was done incorrectly causing the damage. Nice name and spelling of it BTW.

Rhys.

 

[AlexW]

That or its dropped a valve. Timing would cause it to be more than one valve.

 

[rdoxenham]

Have you decided on which rods, bearings, etc. you are going for yet mate?

260bhp/ton NA is ambitious and potentially expensive... I like it! Good luck with the build!

Watching the thread with interest... *thumbs up*

Yeah, it's ambitious, but the car is pretty light now, and I've got to have a goal... right? ;-)

As for the rods, bearings, and bolts... all decided, just spreading out the cost a bit. So will order bits along the way and when required.

Thanks for your support, mate!

Sounds like if the belt was new then it was done incorrectly causing the damage. Nice name and spelling of it BTW.

Rhys.

Yeah, quite possibly, head is coming off this weekend so will see the total damage. Hopefully it's not too bad, but thankfully I've got plenty of spares available.

And there's only one true way to spell it ;-)

That or its dropped a valve. Timing would cause it to be more than one valve.

Not sure what it was, it looks like only one valve so far. Cheers!

 

[rdoxenham]

Nice one buddy, look forward to seeing the results

Awesome. Following with great interest.

Thanks, guys! Bare with me, it'll take a while to get there, but will post updates as often as I can.

 

[Chip-mk1]

So what bearings are you going to use?

and does your 260bhp/ton include a driver, if so how much do they weigh?

 

[rdoxenham]

So what bearings are you going to use?

and does your 260bhp/ton include a driver, if so how much do they weigh?

Hi Chip, perhaps I should amend the title. That's my goal, but I'm not massively concerned with hitting it. It's a project that I plan to learn from. I don't care so much for pub figures, I just want to have fun on the track and enjoy building something along the way.

The bearings, I'm going to go for ACL, *but* I'm on the fence between taking the racing ones or the standard ones. I read on here, somewhere, that the race ones may not be the most prudent to go for. But welcome opinions.

 

[rdoxenham]

And I weigh approx. 90kg. ;-)

 

[Chip-mk1]

230bhp / 795kg car / 90kg driver = 260bhp / ton

seems plausible, although a cage might make it hard work


The problem we have found with the ACL race series is that they run about a 1 thousandth of an inch more clearance than the standard bearings, and with a pump that is already poorly equipped I think thats a bad move personally.

Personally my preference is towards Mahle williams bearings and tag the block to fit.

 

[rdoxenham]

So, what you're trying to say is that I should lose some weight to counteract the weight of the cage? ;-)

Hmm, interesting... thanks for your advice. I'll explore that option when it comes to it.

 

[Chip-mk1]

So, what you're trying to say is that I should lose some weight to counteract the weight of the cage? ;-)

Hmm, interesting... thanks for your advice. I'll explore that option when it comes to it.

TBH the more important thing I was saying, is that if you are going to use ACL race bearings, I hope you have a good plan to manage oil pressure.

The fact that losing weight off the car is easier than gaining power from the engine was much more of a throwaway obvious comment, so you'd be better focusing on the other half of my reply, lol.

 

[rdoxenham]

TBH the more important thing I was saying, is that if you are going to use ACL race bearings, I hope you have a good plan to manage oil pressure.

The fact that losing weight off the car is easier than gaining power from the engine was much more of a throwaway obvious comment, so you'd be better focusing on the other half of my reply, lol.

Sorry, didn't want to sound like I wasn't valuing your advice. Given the fact that this will only be used for track days, I'll probably be giving it death, so would be tending to go more towards the reliability edge than the maximum power/closer to tolerances (I won't have the funds to rebuilt it every few months). Therefore, I think the standard bearings are probably the most sensible suggestion.

 

[24JSeymour]

Looking forward to following this, good luck

 

[SharkyUK]

A few people advised that I avoid the ACL's, too. Just thought I'd mention it as there may be similarities between your engine build and my own. Admittedly I'm not looking for anywhere near 260bhp/ton but I'm not stripping the car at all either! LOL! Good luck with it mate.

 

[mark123]

A few people advised that I avoid the ACL's, too. Just thought I'd mention it as there may be similarities between your engine build and my own. Admittedly I'm not looking for anywhere near 260bhp/ton but I'm not stripping the car at all either! LOL! Good luck with it mate.

What did Fred use on yours?

 

[reedy107]

Good luck with this one mate. Any pics of the interior ?


Thinkin about stripping mine.


Ben

 

[SharkyUK]

What did Fred use on yours?

Probably ACL's for all I know, mate!!! LOL!

Seriously, I'm not sure what Fred went with in the end. Originally the plan was to stick with standard bearings (and I believe this may well be the case).

 

[NorthloopCup]

Probably ACL's for all I know, mate!!! LOL!

Seriously, I'm not sure what Fred went with in the end. Originally the plan was to stick with standard bearings (and I believe this may well be the case).

They're better than acl's any day of the week imo!!

 

[rdoxenham]

Good luck with this one mate. Any pics of the interior ?


Thinkin about stripping mine.


Ben

Thanks a lot... sure, some pics in its current work-in-progress state...

http://people.redhat.com/roxenham/image.jpeg
http://people.redhat.com/roxenham/image-1.jpeg
http://people.redhat.com/roxenham/image-2.jpeg

When I tried to use the IMG links they showed up as upside down, not sure why :/

 

[gez 172]

Following with interest

 

[Chip-mk1]

A few people advised that I avoid the ACL's, too. Just thought I'd mention it as there may be similarities between your engine build and my own. Admittedly I'm not looking for anywhere near 260bhp/ton but I'm not stripping the car at all either! LOL! Good luck with it mate.

Weight is the key.

Standard F4R engine is over 1000bhp per tonne, it only starts going down hill when you start adding a gearbox and car to it.

 

[Cupman29]

Weight is the key.

Standard F4R engine is over 1000bhp per tonne, it only starts going down hill when you start adding a gearbox and car to it.

Lol, so true!

 

[Fred@BTM]

What did Fred use on yours?

NOT ACL!!! They're crap (in my opinion) we spent 6 b*****d hours at Arrow Precision measuring the clearances on their VERY expensive CMM machine, stock (tagged) bearings gave bang on oil clearance, ACL were DOUBLE = bad idea, you buzz the engine even slightly and the rod is going straight out the block!

ACL do race "plus" which gives even more clearance

but ACL has gone bust now

 

[rdoxenham]

OK - bit of an update! As mentioned in another thread, I had some problems with the removal of the head. Unfortunately I managed to round one of the head bolts whilst trying to remove it as the socket was fouling on the head without me realising. It was drilled out successfully though and I suspect that it will be fine:

This allowed me to see the full extent of the damage - the valve is definitely bent and will likely be a real pain to remove and will obviously need replacing and a new valve guide:

You can also slightly see where the valve was fouling on the top of the piston too, but doesn't look like much damage (I won't be reusing them anyway), and ignore the swarf and contamination in the block, it's going to get fully cleaned, bored, and then freshly painted up:

Finally, my garage seems to be filling up with Clio engines, and just for Chip-mk1, a photo of my cat ;-)...

More updates soon - going to get the block sent off this week for boring.

Cheers
Rhys

 

[rdoxenham]

Spent a few hours this evening taking apart the rest of the block ready for boring. After taking off the crank pulley, all sensors, and the sump I was left with this, and thankfully it all looked in good condition:

Then about an hour later I was left with this:

I'm assuming they're oil jets inside of each cylinder, just not sure whether I'll need to remove them before boring? Any ideas?

 

[Cupman29]

Yes, they're oil squirters and have to be removed for boring then replaced after.

 

[rdoxenham]

Yes, they're oil squirters and have to be removed for boring then replaced after.

Thanks mate!

 

[rdoxenham]

Another quick update whilst the engine is off for boring...

I'm building up a custom dash for the car, based on a Raspberry Pi and an HD 9" display. Embedded computing and programming is something I've been involved with in the past and I want to continue this, so as a project for the car and to save some money on dedicated dashes, I've decided to build my own.

Some initial photos of the design:

I plan on integrating the dash with the ECU directly over a CANbus interface and reading sensor data rapidly. It will have WiFi and Bluetooth for integration too



And then some mockups of what I want the dash to look like. Remember that this is a track-day car only, so things have to be simple and clear. Would welcome opinions!

Cheers
Rhys

 

[welshname]

That's pretty cool. Very impressive.

 

[Diagro]

i Would move the RPM sightly to the left and the numbers to above and then stick MPH on there too

 

[rdoxenham]

i Would move the RPM sightly to the left and the numbers to above and then stick MPH on there too

Possible, although I was thinking that MPH would need to come from GPS - as I don't think the ECU will provide me with MPH considering the speedo comes directly from the gearbox?

Happy to be proven wrong though!

 

[Diagro]

Possible, although I was thinking that MPH would need to come from GPS - as I don't think the ECU will provide me with MPH considering the speedo comes directly from the gearbox?

Happy to be proven wrong though!

Could you not take it from the gearbox?
GPS isnt exactly the best

 

[rdoxenham]

Actually I'd have to disagree. GPS speed is more accurate than the speedo in the car. And as it's a track day car, it's not a huge concern