EPAS on 172 Cup

[GrahamS]

My EPAS seems to be exactly the same as Phils (both using the same rack part number)

I have no problem with centring and the assistance can be dialed from stupidly light to very heavy. In my review I put which settings I use for track, nearly off but not quite.

 

[GrahamS]

Angle sensor is part of the column not the rack. The wheel can only fit in one position on the column. You'd know if the column was fitted out of center on the rack as it would have to be a full 180 degrees out to meet the connector. Unless the bottom connector has been knocked completely off the column which I very much doubt.
QUOTE]

Yeah also the angle sensor will throw up an esp light (if you still have the system in)

The column just 1 spline out of alignment with the rack means from centre to left and centre to right you get different turn numbers before the stop. (this was my initial problem)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Does power steering fluid expand when hot? If so if the rack gets hot and there's now no expansion bottle or anywhere for the fluid to go as it's looped on itself surely that will add a fair bit of resistance?

Yes like every other liquid I can think of power steering fluid expands when hot, but unless its really packed in (and give the nature of the "loop" arragement it cant possible be) there should be plenty of air to compress very slightly to allow the liquid to expand.
so as long as it doesnt actually boil completely I cant really see that being an issue TBH

 

[Cup_Phil]

Well there's a few people with DCi racks and the conversion that have no problems at all - and a bunch of people with looped PAS racks that are all too light, wander around and don't self center. So I think the evidence is indicating there actually is an issue

 

[MG cup]

Does James's car run a looped hpas rack? I thought he changed to a DCI jobby.

To me in that videos, James's car looks like its steering from the rear as theres sudden corrections of steering on the straights and on direction change.....or the diffs snatching and pulling the car?

Marks seems over assisted (lack of turn in feel) as it looks to wash out until corner exit on the tighter stuff?

One thing you are all sharing is toe out right, James and Mark more than Phil and Pete?
​
None of this is making me comfortable about the epas, I think I'll hold onto my saxo pump for just now.

 

[BIGASH]

Mine is looped and blanked std rack but I didn't fill it with anything. I don't honestly know what all the fuss is about lol, Mine was set to full assistance when I wired the car back in March and until Fred mentioned it at Oulton I hadn't even though twice about the steering assistance. It's always felt perfect to me I just get in and drive the bloody thing so no messing about twizling things. Unless the EPAS motor ever starts having failures I would never swap to another system on the clio.

Yes my car and Mark's car were both running a fair bit of toe out on the front so its not really fair to blame a twitchy front end on the EPAS. I have the car setup for me so its always unfortunately the case that when other people drive it that it isn't exactly how they would have it themselves.

Edit: Mine has absolutely no problem that i've noticed with self centring

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well there's a few people with DCi racks and the conversion that have no problems at all - and a bunch of people with looped PAS racks that are all too light, wander around and don't self center. So I think the evidence is indicating there actually is an issue

James, does yours self centre?

If so I think Phil is barking up the wrong tree completely.


Edit, just seen your edit, well if yours self centres on the standard rack, thats pretty good evidence that the standard rack isnt the issue.

 

[MG cup]

I like your mantra.....get in, drive it like you stole it until it stops.

Your car does look to steer from the rear (in that video) and in another thread Fred complained of weird handling, he couldn't describe exactly if it was oversteer or understeer.

 

[Cup_Phil]

That's the point - if it's how you want it then job done!
The whole point is it's adjustable - I guess no-one told Fred where the nob was lol

It does look bloody twitchy though - watching the steering wheel move compared to the track it seems to be quite wobbly.
But yeah as I said - if it's how you like it then fair play. I like my car oversteery hence the rear ABS being on full strength - but Chip said he would never run one.
Horses for courses

 

[Chip-mk1]

That's the point - if it's how you want it then job done!
The whole point is it's adjustable - I guess no-one told Fred where the nob was lol

It does look bloody twitchy though - watching the steering wheel move compared to the track it seems to be quite wobbly.
But yeah as I said - if it's how you like it then fair play. I like my car oversteery hence the rear ABS being on full strength - but Chip said he would never run one.
Horses for courses

You seem to have taken a comment out of context from me there, assuming you mean ARB not ABS as I find them very useful on some cars.
I said I wouldnt fit one on the turbo alongside the suspension it had at the time as the speeds involved at places like Folly arent where you want the car any more arse endy (not sure if you have seen the video of porkie following me through there where it went a full 45 degrees sideways at well over 100 mph, but its not something I want to encourage it to do more of), but I certainly dont recall, or even believe I would have done so, saying that I would never run an ARB in general like you are making it sound there as I have done so on loads of cars!
They are a potentially useful tuning aid for setting up the ratio of roll resistance front to rear, im quite a fan of underspringing the rear of a car and then having the ARB to adjust it in fact.

 

[Toastfrenzy]

mine drives solid - none of the movement shown in Freds video - could this be just too light for Fred's light fingers - James seems to have a more solid grip of the wheel, dosen't seem to move about as much. I thought Fred was sitting abit far from the wheel too - just looked less than an ideal position, to me.

About the splines - if you were out of true - could you then centre using the the tie rods undo both and re align that way? or would the turns left and right still be off?

 

[Chip-mk1]

mine drives solid - none of the movement shown in Freds video - could this be just too light for Fred's light fingers - James seems to have a more solid grip of the wheel, dosen't seem to move about as much. I thought Fred was sitting abit far from the wheel too - just looked less than an ideal position, to me.

About the splines - if you were out of true - could you then centre using the the tie rods undo both and re align that way? or would the turns left and right still be off?

You'd end up with more lock one way than the other if you did that to misalign the rack to compensate for being a spline out.

 

[BIGASH]

Don't forget Oulton is a massively bumpy circuit which could be adding to it.

Fred isn't the only person who's driven my car to say the same thing but the last person who did said exactly the same as Fred but that was when the car had hydraulic PAS!

My car suffers from bump steer and the kinematics aren't ideal but that is getting worked on and until then I just have to make the best of what I have

 

[BIGASH]

mine drives solid - none of the movement shown in Freds video - could this be just too light for Fred's light fingers - James seems to have a more solid grip of the wheel, dosen't seem to move about as much. I thought Fred was sitting abit far from the wheel too - just looked less than an ideal position, to me.

About the splines - if you were out of true - could you then centre using the the tie rods undo both and re align that way? or would the turns left and right still be off?

The EPAS was on 100% assistance in the video so that is probably the problem and as you say Pete the driving position unfortunately isn't ideal for Fred

 

[Toastfrenzy]

ok what is bump steer - never really understood this...a quick synopsis will do..


Just found this, I get it now as I have experianced this on my tractor...lol.

 

[Cup_Phil]

You seem to have taken a comment out of context from me there, assuming you mean ARB not ABS as I find them very useful on some cars.
I said I wouldnt fit one on the turbo alongside the suspension it had at the time as the speeds involved at places like Folly arent where you want the car any more arse endy (not sure if you have seen the video of porkie following me through there where it went a full 45 degrees sideways at well over 100 mph, but its not something I want to encourage it to do more of), but I certainly dont recall, or even believe I would have done so, saying that I would never run an ARB in general like you are making it sound there as I have done so on loads of cars!
They are a potentially useful tuning aid for setting up the ratio of roll resistance front to rear, im quite a fan of underspringing the rear of a car and then having the ARB to adjust it in fact.

You said you'd never run one on a Clio.
Anyway not really relevant - I was just pointing out some like understeer, some oversteer, some light steering and some heavy.
If James finds it right for his driving style then fair play it's his car

 

[Chip-mk1]

You said you'd never run one on a Clio.

I suspect you have remembered it slightly wrong unless by "A" clio you meant a specific one I was talking about rather than ALL clios which is how it reads.

Im probably going to fit one to the RB in fact, as Ive got firmer springs front (cooksport) than rear (eibach) so it feels like it could do with a little more roll resistance at the rear now as a result to suit my driving style.

Anyway not really relevant - I was just pointing out some like understeer, some oversteer, some light steering and some heavy.
If James finds it right for his driving style then fair play it's his car

Yes I will probably have a preference towards the ARB on a different setting to les on the RB as I prefer the car looser at the back than she does.

 

[_WILL_]

ok what is bump steer - never really understood this...a quick synopsis will do..


Just found this, I get it now as I have experianced this on my tractor...lol.

That's really not a great summary on that link ( from what i can see on my phone anyway) It is something that is worth reading up about of you want understand it.

You have to consider how bump steer affect the car as you roll through a corner etc as well as just "hitting" a bump.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Agreed with _Will_, in fact compression steer is a better term TBH, as then it reminds you it happens when suspension compresses in a bend too.

But mk2 clios dont generally suffer badly with it anyway, not compared to something like a nova where the steering arm is halfway up the strut.

 

[Fred@BTM]

I thought Fred was sitting abit far from the wheel too - just looked less than an ideal position, to me.

i have about 6inches of foam padding behind me, my arse is where the "baby killer" belt comes up through the seat, not ideal but its James' car so i have to make do! VERY physical to drive the thing as i have no shoulder support and just the seat digging into my leg, about halfway down my thigh!

 

[Toastfrenzy]

Yes..I keep getting told 6 inches is never enough.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Marks seems over assisted (lack of turn in feel) as it looks to wash out until corner exit on the tighter stuff?

A few things to keep in mind with mine though Morgan are as follows:
I didn't settle the tyre pressures before I set that lap, so the fronts were above what I wanted, causing some of the understeer,
The suspension is not stiff enough which was adding to the understeer,
but the assistance level was also to high, but then also worth noting is the ring is an expensive place to bin it so I'd rather have that level of assistance should the need to correct it come about! Lol!. But as James has already said, its set up for me and how I like it - the same as his.

The more frustrating thing that the video doesn't show is how pointy the front end actually is. The majority of corrections are from where I've turned in and it's pulled a tighter line than it used to do. It's very similar to how a car reacts with a Quaife diff fitted (of which I have personal experience) and the car pulls in tighter.

Mines running even wider track than a normal cup (without the use of hubcentric spacers) combined with the roll centre correctors and bump steer correctors too, so it's also difficult to compare all the cars on a like for like basis.

 

[NorthloopCup]

i have about 6inches of foam padding behind me, my arse is where the "baby killer" belt comes up through the seat, not ideal but its James' car so i have to make do! VERY physical to drive the thing as i have no shoulder support and just the seat digging into my leg, about halfway down my thigh!

Tbf Fred, you didn't look completely comfortable in the video either, so the seating issue would make a lot of sense.

 

[MG cup]

Just an observation I made of the video Mark , hard to tell what it is actually doing. It does look like a tyre/suspension issue more than anything. Mine is very similar on my track cup which is too soft and inadequate tyres for what I'm trying to make it do.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Just an observation I made of the video Mark , hard to tell what it is actually doing. It does look like a tyre/suspension issue more than anything. Mine is very similar on my track cup which is too soft and inadequate tyres for what I'm trying to make it do.

Yeah I understand that Morgan. It really is night and day better since all the hub modifications though. So much easier to drive, which I think the video shows as a lot of people have commented on how smooth and easy I made it look. Overall impressions of the epas though are very good - even if it was only originally fitted so I had space to fit an eaton supercharger! Lol!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Tbf Fred, you didn't look completely comfortable in the video either, so the seating issue would make a lot of sense.

Yeah from watching that video I cant imagine fred having much useful input on its setup while having to struggle like that to drive it, lol.

 

[Fred@BTM]

AST's aren't all that i can tell you that much! Still, with a 4 year break from driving and about 20laps total (and hanging out the seat!) getting within 2sec of James was not bad, just no confidence in the steering through island bend, i think i was the same everywhere else

 

[NorthloopCup]

AST's aren't all that i can tell you that much! Still, with a 4 year break from driving and about 20laps total (and hanging out the seat!) getting within 2sec of James was not bad, just no confidence in the steering through island bend, i think i was the same everywhere else

Its a good job you weren't as confident then through island!! Look at what happened to James! Lol! Impressive to get within that time distance though everything else considered. Boyz got skillz init! Lol

 

[Fred@BTM]

he was 18mph quicker through there!

 

[NorthloopCup]

he was 18mph quicker through there!

Fook me!!

 

[_WILL_]

For the people who struggle with the way suspension works etc. I would advise purchasing the following:

Car Suspension at Work, Theory & practice of Steering, Handling and Road Holding by Jeffery Daniels.

It is a good starting point and generally it is pretty easy to understand. The odd bit is a little badly written but all in it's a great place to start with the theory of a lot of suspension set up and design. You can usually get a used copy of amazon pretty cheap.

Ignore that it has a A class on the front cover!!

​for the guys that already know ignore me.

 

[Shaunkealaher]

Where did everyone take a 12v switched feed from as im a bit stuck on where to take it from ?

 

[Cup_Phil]

One of the cables on the back of the ignition barrel. I stripped some of the plastic insulation off, soldered it onto there and then put a bit of tape around it to re-insulate it

 

[Shaunkealaher]

Have just wired it but it doesnt seem to be working..the power cable and earth people are in about putting in was already there on my car as it was a 1.2 with epas but i converted it to the 172

 

[Cup_Phil]

Does it click when the ignition is on?

If not test the cables with a multimeter. The main power cable will have a fuse that could have gone?

 

[Shaunkealaher]

I was just wondering if that thick power cable and earth would be cancelled out after changing the engine loom all fuses are fine im waiting to lend a multimeter..where would i hear the click from ?

 

[Cup_Phil]

From the epas ecu. It has a big relay internally

I'd guess if you've swapped the engine fusebox that it won't have power anymore. You could look for the cable in the engine bay and see if you can put a new fuse in the slot it runs from

 

[Shaunkealaher]

Will have a look in daylight tomoro but when i stripped the loom out there was no big power cable going anywhere all the wires plugged into the bulkhead via a big adapter so the cables must connect in the dash somewhere

 

[Cup_Phil]

It's a fairly chunky 40-60amp cable. I wouldn't think it would go through a multi plug. It should come from the main engine bay fuse box like a starter motor cable would

 

[Shaunkealaher]

Was no power running through the main power cable problem now solved