Fao itb users

[mi16chris]

Was thinking of treating the clio to a set of dht itbs , gen90 ecu and some cams 438 or 421s not sure witch , as u know its not cheap but do u think its worth it ? As in is the car much faster , fun to driver etc and if we're to start over would u do it all over again ?

I'm used to tuning turbo cars were a few k gets u 100hp+ easy spending almost 3k to get 30ish hp is mad but I've all ways wanted to build and tune a nice na engine just something magic about it lol

Cheers for any feed back

 

[SharkyUK]

For me personally... yes, it was worth it. But it was something I'd thought long and hard about, saved up for and had wanted to do. I am still very much a Jap car fan (coming from a Jap car / Type-R background) and loved their high- and free-revving nature. That's why I wanted to keep it N/A and ultimately decided to go down the route you mention (albeit with a slightly different spec).

Sure, for the money I've spent i could have a fairly big bhp'd forced induction Trophy but I love the highly-strung nature that I've got with the ITB's. For the majority of driving I do it is perfect and it's also pretty good on track as it's so very nicely setup. And that sound... I love it.

Is it much faster? Well, not massively. It doesn't fair too badly against many 'superior' cars but it won't be good for chasing down Porker's by any stretch of the imagination. Ultimately, it was/is the great spread of torque that does it for me (although not much compared to FI I admit). Compared to a stock engine it just pulls and pulls and I would say it's the increase in torque across the range that is more significant than any bhp gains made.

 

[mi16chris]

For me personally... yes, it was worth it. But it was something I'd thought long and hard about, saved up for and had wanted to do. I am still very much a Jap car fan (coming from a Jap car / Type-R background) and loved their high- and free-revving nature. That's why I wanted to keep it N/A and ultimately decided to go down the route you mention (albeit with a slightly different spec).

Sure, for the money I've spent i could have a fairly big bhp'd forced induction Trophy but I love the highly-strung nature that I've got with the ITB's. For the majority of driving I do it is perfect and it's also pretty good on track as it's so very nicely setup. And that sound... I love it.

Is it much faster? Well, not massively. It doesn't fair too badly against many 'superior' cars but it won't be good for chasing down Porker's by any stretch of the imagination. Ultimately, it was/is the great spread of torque that does it for me (although not much compared to FI I admit). Compared to a stock engine it just pulls and pulls and I would say it's the increase in torque across the range that is more significant than any bhp gains made.

Sounds like a great set up that ur enjoying mate what itbs ecu and cams do u go for ? Any dyno print outs ?thanks

 

[SharkyUK]

Sounds like a great set up that ur enjoying mate what itbs ecu and cams do u go for ? Any dyno print outs ?thanks

I've got the Jenvey-based DTH kit from K-Tec and their GEN90 ECU (which is a tidy piece of kit). As I'm having a complete forged engine build in the next few weeks my cams aren't going in until then - and I'm putting in Schrick 288's. At the moment I'm running the ITB's/ECU with standard cams.

I don't have the last dyno print out I had done (after I had a few issues fixed) but it was dyno'd at a decent 200bhp and high 160's for torque.

The last graph I have available is when she wasn't running too well (the compression was down and I had valve issues, etc) but it might give you some idea...

...and the dyno...

I'm not sure how helpful it is but there you go.

EDIT: Prior to the ITB install I was running ~172bhp and ~146lbft.

 

[Dan519]

I loved it on my mk1, made 185, up from a standard 147 (Spider engine) With catcams and Omex, on adapted honda fitment OBX throttles

Loved it in my 172, used Catcams 421s and Gen90 with Jenvey DCOE 48s

Working on it for the 197

oh and for objectivity, I used to run high power turbo's too

 

[Cup_Phil]

I'm still not sold on cams AND itb's

I run jenvey itb's with omex - 2nd hand kit, all in cost me about £2300 including mapping.
Went from around 169 standard to 194bhp - big jump

People on here who have fitted just cams and a remap have also seen 190ish bhp - for about £1500

But if I add cams to my engine, I'd get about another 10bhp for £1500... once you're over 190bhp it starts getting expensive to pull the last bits of power out the car

I would recommend throttle bodies for the noise, throttle response and power delivery thought - got a big grin factor with them

 

[mi16chris]

I'm still not sold on cams AND itb's

I run jenvey itb's with omex - 2nd hand kit, all in cost me about £2300 including mapping.
Went from around 169 standard to 194bhp - big jump

People on here who have fitted just cams and a remap have also seen 190ish bhp - for about £1500

But if I add cams to my engine, I'd get about another 10bhp for £1500... once you're over 190bhp it starts getting expensive to pull the last bits of power out the car

I would recommend throttle bodies for the noise, throttle response and power delivery thought - got a big grin factor with them

Il be mapping the car my self and fitting all parts so hoping it will keep the cost down abit any ways , hoping k tec get back to me with good news about a single key for tunning the gen90 or il have to go omex tho it's cheaper again , it's the grin factor of n/a that I love all revs and noise lol


@dan looks like u had a lot of fun looking forword to seeing pixs the 197 once it's done, what cams would u advise mate ?

 

[Cup_Phil]

Just noticed your name - what did you have an mi16 in? (please say 205) lol

 

[mi16chris]

Just noticed your name - what did you have an mi16 in? (please say 205) lol

Yes lol

 

[MG cup]

Come on now Phil, its a car engine like any other car engine. Cams and ITB's will improve any engine. Wether you want an improvement in torque or bhp, high or low rpm, its all in the correct selection of cams.

I'm still not sold on cams AND itb's

I run jenvey itb's with omex - 2nd hand kit, all in cost me about £2300 including mapping.
Went from around 169 standard to 194bhp - big jump

People on here who have fitted just cams and a remap have also seen 190ish bhp - for about £1500

But if I add cams to my engine, I'd get about another 10bhp for £1500... once you're over 190bhp it starts getting expensive to pull the last bits of power out the car

I would recommend throttle bodies for the noise, throttle response and power delivery thought - got a big grin factor with them

 

[Cup_Phil]

I didn't say you don't get an improvement - I just said personally I think £1500 on top of £3k for ITB's just just another 10bhp or so isn't FINANCIALLY worth it...

 

[Laine_16v]

I didnt really think putting 421's over stock cams on my engine made enough of a difference to warrant the money. Made a heck of a difference to the induction nosie though.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I cant answer if they are worth it to you, but I have had loads of throttle bodies engines in the past and I am sure I will in the future too.

It is a lot of money (more than 100% of the cars value realistically for most clios!) for only a moderate gain, but if you love everything else about the car then its a good way to get a reasonable gain without having to lose the handling etc. Too many people go and buy something quicker but then miss how the clio drives, so for that reason it makes sense to "waste" money making a clio quicker rather than swap car IMHO

The noise is epic too.

As for how quick they are, this is a throttle bodied engine we built for a friend of mine recently:


Its actually a bit quicker now as we have altered the cam timing since that video which has given some good gains, but you certainly get the idea from that at least and TBH even as it is there its probably slightly quicker than yours will be on a standard engine with just cams and bodies.

I love driving it, but as we have an RS2 inlet equipped 172 anyway that my mrs uses as a daily and we do loads of trackdays in, there seemed no point in having a bodies one too which is basically just the same to drive but slightly quicker (ie similar delivery, similar willingness to rev etc) so I went for a turbo for one of our other clios just for a bit of variety.

 

[SharkyUK]

It is a lot of money (more than 100% of the cars value realistically for most clios!) for only a moderate gain, but if you love everything else about the car then its a good way to get a reasonable gain without having to lose the handling etc. Too many people go and buy something quicker but then miss how the clio drives, so for that reason it makes sense to "waste" money making a clio quicker rather than swap car IMHO

Nail on the head, Chip. You've pretty much listed the main reasons why I've gone down this NA / forged route.

 

[MG cup]

You can do bodies for a lot cheaper than 3k and cams are only £600 brand new if your fitting yourself. Fitting cams changes the power band of an engine, not all about peak figures. You can cam and ITB a car for just over 2k including mapping by buying 2nd hand and fitting yourself, I could have anyway but decided to upgrade things.

 

[Cup_Phil]

You can cam AND ITB a car for just over 2k?

Second hand ITB kits are £1500, mapping free if you risk doing it yourself, but then you need oil/coolant etc.. cams at £600
I think you'd be struggling - just the little bits (bolts, nuts, mounts, etc..) when I did my ITB's easily added up to a few hundred

 

[Chip-mk1]

You can cam AND ITB a car for just over 2k?

Second hand ITB kits are £1500, mapping free if you risk doing it yourself, but then you need oil/coolant etc.. cams at £600
I think you'd be struggling - just the little bits (bolts, nuts, mounts, etc..) when I did my ITB's easily added up to a few hundred

I am also confident like swede cup that I could do it for around 2k all in TBH, but you would need to take your time on buying the parts to manage that you couldnt always find all the bits at short notice. Ive seen quite a few sets of AT Power bodies sell in the 700 quid region complete for example.


Thinking outside the box a little though, have you seen the way that Danlp6 did OBX honda bodies onto his ph1 years ago?

450 quid new delivered from the states for this:

And this is how well it matches the inlet so no big deal to modify to fit:

If you get a good deal on the cams and ECU and use the OBX bodies, I actually think that you could manage bodies and cams on your car for 2K using all new parts let alone secondhand if you are capable of doing all the work yourself.

 

[Poopensharten]

If you can do it for 2k i'll see you soon!

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you can do it for 2k i'll see you soon!

Nice try but while I could do it for that on my own car based on me paying myself 0 pounds an hour for installation and mapping. I couldnt for you at 60 pounds an hour for the same, FLOL

 

[Poopensharten]

I'll help?

I can hold the torch, and you can call me the lighthouse!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Lol, other than the mapping which isnt massively expensive anyway, there isnt anything that you cant do as an enthusiast with a bit of time and effort, changing cams IS a ballache im not going to lie to you, but its certainly not beyond the capabilities of anyone moderately intelligent who takes their time.

 

[Poopensharten]

My old mans a mechanical engineer by trade but trying to get him involved in anything that you cant do in your slippers is zzzzz.

 

[Wick]

£2k, where do I sign? I'll join the queue behind Danny! I'm also good at torch holding.

 

[Cup_Phil]

That's pretty cool - you would need the skill involved to modify inlets etc.. though

 

[Chip-mk1]

That's pretty cool - you would need the skill involved to modify inlets etc.. though

You only need to drill some holes and grind a couple of bits off, its not like it needs portmatching as the fit is so good to begin with.
More of an issue if its a road car is the fact you need a hole in your bonnet to clear a filter though.

Not saying its for everyone, but just trying to point out there are other ways to skin a cat thats all.

 

[hilldawg172]

Im going to be fitting jenveys quite soon just need to get round to bying a ecu(gonna use gen90) but with weather etc been a bit lazy. But after I buy the ecu if will of cost me a bit over £1700 all in including areo catches, smaller rad so I can run 120 mm trumpets. gonna fit myself then get it mapped at rstuning so prob end up around the £2100 all in. not bad when you think its about 1200 for just the jenveys new.

 

[Chip-mk1]

A Gen90 isnt the ECU I would be using to try and do it cheaply TBH, but it is a nice easy option that doesnt need you to create a loom etc so I can see the appeal.

 

[Cup_Phil]

hilldawg - that's worked out as an absolute bargain!

 

[hilldawg172]

if I was more confident with wiring and looms I would go for a cheaper option but I figure by the time I pay to have say a omex or similar wired and fitted etc will be about the same price. Plus how would I go about starting the car with a omex if I fitted myself? I like the fact I get a base map etc with gen90 so I can just start it and drive for mapping. Wouldn't know where to start with one id have to wire in. I can work the tools no bother but not a clue when it comes to wiring etc, im just a simple welder lol.

 

[Llewellyn]

Was thinking of treating the clio to a set of dht itbs , gen90 ecu and some cams 438 or 421s not sure witch , as u know its not cheap but do u think its worth it ? As in is the car much faster , fun to driver etc and if we're to start over would u do it all over again ?

Cheers for any feed back

I recently test drove a 172 with a Ktec fitted ITB kit and 421 cams and to say it was a disappointment would be an understatement, if you're going to track the car I could see it MAYBE a worthwhile thing, but me personally, on the road I found the car extremely underwhelming for a 204bhp clio.
I'd just stepped out of my transit connect and was ready to be wow'd power wise and found the car no more exciting to drive than a standard Healthy 172, I'd suggest driving one with a similar spec to what you'd be going for before spending any money, as I came away from the above car knowing I would never put anywhere near that amount of cash into a N/A Clio.
Just my opinion though and obviously different people have different driving styles and expect different things from their car.

 

[Cup_Phil]

^^ REALLY????

Mines got 10bhp less than that and there's rarely anything on the road I have a play with that it doesn't beat.
The powers instant, the torques addictive and the noise is amazing

I must admit if I was doing it again the same money would go on a supercharger, but there's no way I'd call an ITB'd 172 underwhelming

 

[Poopensharten]

Road racing's illegal, Phil.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Financially spending any more than oil and general maintenance isn't really viable on an old Clio, so it's a mute point. Why spend money on new speedlines? Or anything for that matter.

"IT'S NOT WORTH IT :s" Said whilst having a poky bum w**k with their new iPhone.

ITBS should come with these cars out of the box. You're best off driving a decent one first and making a decision. Getting dragged into charts and peak figures doesn't prove anything to anyone, nor are they for everyone.

If you prefer the way the car drives on ITBS, and aren't keen on the idea of either another boosted car, or going through the odd gearbox - then why not. There's no definitive answer, but try before you buy.

 

[hilldawg172]

If you decide to go for it I have a spare set of 90mm trumpets for sale if your interested, think the ktec kit comes with smaller ones.

 

[Llewellyn]

^^ REALLY????

Mines got 10bhp less than that and there's rarely anything on the road I have a play with that it doesn't beat.
The powers instant, the torques addictive and the noise is amazing

I must admit if I was doing it again the same money would go on a supercharger, but there's no way I'd call an ITB'd 172 underwhelming

It may be different when you're the one who's spent ALL that money on a car(placebo effect:rasp, but me personally, I just didn't come away with any other feeling than flatness, really not impressed, just my opinion though.
I may feel different out on the track with the ITB car, but for a fast road car/occasional track day, I just wouldn't bother, but maybe I'm just a hard man to please:approve:.

 

[Silent_Scone]

If it feels flat it's not healthy, could be down to any number of reasons. Mapping, balancing, crap filter, dodgy sensor. If it's set up right it will be the complete opposite of flat. The standard setup / inlet is flat as a pancake. That's the whole point.

 

[hilldawg172]

I have never been in a clio fitted with itb's if im honest but the difference on my mates ek9 b16b was night and day response/pick up wise, certainly not flat! Not to mention the sound when it hits tec! Its unworldly lol

 

[Cup_Phil]

If it felt flat then there was an issue with the car.
And no it's not a placebo affect - I drive a diesel passat every day and when I get in the clio is makes me grin like a nut case

 

[Chip-mk1]

I recently test drove a 172 with a Ktec fitted ITB kit and 421 cams and to say it was a disappointment would be an understatement, if you're going to track the car I could see it MAYBE a worthwhile thing, but me personally, on the road I found the car extremely underwhelming for a 204bhp clio.
I'd just stepped out of my transit connect and was ready to be wow'd power wise and found the car no more exciting to drive than a standard Healthy 172, I'd suggest driving one with a similar spec to what you'd be going for before spending any money, as I came away from the above car knowing I would never put anywhere near that amount of cash into a N/A Clio.
Just my opinion though and obviously different people have different driving styles and expect different things from their car.

I doubt it was 204bhp anymore then TBH mate, that should certainly be enough to really notice over a standard car, but lots and lots of these cars are making nowhere near what their owners think they still are.

 

[Scotty-boi]

Definitely. A 204bhp clio should be a lot more on the fun side of 'flat'