Fao itb users

[cliokid182]

I'm still not sold on cams AND itb's

I run jenvey itb's with omex - 2nd hand kit, all in cost me about £2300 including mapping.
Went from around 169 standard to 194bhp - big jump

People on here who have fitted just cams and a remap have also seen 190ish bhp - for about £1500

But if I add cams to my engine, I'd get about another 10bhp for £1500... once you're over 190bhp it starts getting expensive to pull the last bits of power out the car

I would recommend throttle bodies for the noise, throttle response and power delivery thought - got a big grin factor with them

Ive got 438's and made 197bhp and my car pulls like a train, delivery is good and sounds amaising with the k-tec induction too all with water pump, belts bla bla for £1700 .....

Ofcourse doesnt look as good as ITBS under the bonnet and i have never been in a clio with ITBS so cant comment on what id rather have, all i know is i love my clio .....

 

[Cup_Phil]

£500-600 cheaper?

You're quite clearly comparing a brand new Gen90 with a 2nd hand omex kit
Omex 600 is £600 + about £190 for a loom so £790 + postage

That's more like £150 difference

And I'm sorry but saying anyone who is using a car for anything other than road use should ditch the renault loom is insane. You either end up with a bodged omex + standard ecu config to keep the dash going or a massive bill for re-wiring the car, whereas gen90 just plugs in and away you go

 

[Cup_Phil]

Ive got 438's and made 197bhp and my car pulls like a train, delivery is good and sounds amaising with the k-tec induction too all with water pump, belts bla bla for £1700 .....

Ofcourse doesnt look as good as ITBS under the bonnet and i have never been in a clio with ITBS so cant comment on what id rather have, all i know is i love my clio .....

Exactly my point - I bet it's 90% as much fun as an ITB'd car for a fair bit less, you're just missing the awesome noise haha

 

[mi16chris]

Ive got 438's and made 197bhp and my car pulls like a train, delivery is good and sounds amaising with the k-tec induction too all with water pump, belts bla bla for £1700 .....

Ofcourse doesnt look as good as ITBS under the bonnet and i have never been in a clio with ITBS so cant comment on what id rather have, all i know is i love my clio .....

That's some nice power il will have a think about that cheers for the input bud

 

[Dan519]

£500-600 cheaper?

You're quite clearly comparing a brand new Gen90 with a 2nd hand omex kit
Omex 600 is £600 + about £190 for a loom so £790 + postage

That's more like £150 difference

And I'm sorry but saying anyone who is using a car for anything other than road use should ditch the renault loom is insane. You either end up with a bodged omex + standard ecu config to keep the dash going or a massive bill for re-wiring the car, whereas gen90 just plugs in and away you go

10 points and a gold star

 

[Dan519]

Exactly my point - I bet it's 90% as much fun as an ITB'd car for a fair bit less, you're just missing the awesome noise haha

you're not a million miles from the truth, but there is still a difference. Compare cams alone, or ITB's alone and ITB's do just edge it (for response and capability lower down the revs), but both together and it's something else.

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

£500-600 cheaper?

You're quite clearly comparing a brand new Gen90 with a 2nd hand omex kit
Omex 600 is £600 + about £190 for a loom so £790 + postage

That's more like £150 difference

And I'm sorry but saying anyone who is using a car for anything other than road use should ditch the renault loom is insane. You either end up with a bodged omex + standard ecu config to keep the dash going or a massive bill for re-wiring the car, whereas gen90 just plugs in and away you go

All depends if your doing it yourself or paying someone else to do it!

I personally have gone Omex on mine as i really like the ECU and the other features that can be mapped in, but can totally understand the massive appeal with Gen-90.

I'm making my own loom from a semi assembled loom which is cheap as chips (£50+vat direct from Omex) so I can run what ever add-on suit me to what I want.

 

[MG cup]

£500-600 cheaper?

You're quite clearly comparing a brand new Gen90 with a 2nd hand omex kit
Omex 600 is £600 + about £190 for a loom so £790 + postage

Im not comparing to an Omex, its not the same. I'm comparing to some available ecu's that plug into standard loom's in the jap car market and I'm sure the German car market and others offer the same for £250 to £500 band. Even if I was comparing, the end result of an omex and loom is a much neater solution for less money over keeping standard stuff, not much of o.e loom needed to body a car.

All depends if your doing it yourself or paying someone else to do it!

Nail and head.

 

[MG cup]

And I'm sorry but saying anyone who is using a car for anything other than road use should ditch the renault loom is insane. You either end up with a bodged omex + standard ecu config to keep the dash going or a massive bill for re-wiring the car, whereas gen90 just plugs in and away you go

Speaking of what your car has Phil will not apply to all, its no secret you don't like your wiring and think its bodged, all down to who fitted or adjusted it.

I think your forgetting. What do you get if you body a car with a gen90. A bodged standard loom iirc, including a lot of uneeded wiring.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Assuming you are happy to keep with the standard loom (which as mentioned can corrode now these cars are 10+ years old) and have a load of unrequired connections on it etc, then its 60 including vat for a semi assembled omex loom that you can then join into it to allow the omex to take control of the injectors and coilpack etc
Comparing the price of a new complete loom for an Omex which then gives you a much neater solution and of course all new connections that arent full of 10 years of corrosion isnt really comparing like with like IMHO, and even then its still cheaper than the Gen90.

Each has their advantages and there isnt a right or wrong solution, the Gen90 wins on convenience, and on turning out a light on the dashboard, Omex wins in terms of availability of aftermarket mappers experienced with it and in terms of cost if you can do the install work yourself.

 

[Cup_Phil]

EDIT: This is a reply to Swede - not you Chip

*sigh* I feel I'm hitting my head against a brick wall here

So you're comparing a Gen90 price to ecu's for other cars that wont fit a clio? OK whats the point in that? Shall I start comparing the price of Jenveys on a Clio to motorbike body conversions on a 106? Christ the Clio kit is 3x as much, what a rip off!!?

AND You're making the MASSIVE assumption that people can make their own loom up to a higher standard than the Clio standard engine loom which I'm sorry but 90% of people cant - myself included.

But I'm starting to agree with Dan here - you've got an opinion stuck in your head and refuse to see logic so I'm out. I hope some of the advice from ITB'd Clio owners has been some help to the OP.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Chip - even if you do replace the whole engine loom with an omex loom and new connectors - your dashboard, starting, fuel pump, lights etc.. etc.. are all running on a 10+ year old loom that you say can fail. So the only real argument for reliability on a track car is to replace the whole lot and whack a digi dash in - which is ££££££'s

 

[Chip-mk1]

EDIT: This is a reply to Swede - not you Chip

Lol, no worries, kind of applies to me to as I largely agree with what he is saying.

*sigh* I feel I'm hitting my head against a brick wall here

If you are trying to get people to all agree the gen90 is the best thing since sliced bread then you are doing, its a nice easy install but thats its only real advantage, and to people who actually ENJOY doing stuff like making a nice neat loom for their car with no old connections to cause problems and no excess plugs that arent required that isnt an advantage anyway, so you wont ever convince those people.

So you're comparing a Gen-90 price to ecu's for other cars that wont fit a clio? OK whats the point in that? Shall I start comparing the price of Jenveys on a Clio to motorbike body conversions on a 106? Christ the Clio kit is 3x as much, what a rip off!!?

The difference there though is you are comparing secondhand bodies that wont work as well generally, with new bodies.
If anything the Gen90 is the one more akin to the bodies in that you are using something old cause its cheap (the standard loom this time) but the differnece is that the Gen90 itself is so massively overpriced cause its in a clio ecu compatible case that its now the dearer option to have the gen90 with secondhand loom than the new omex with new loom.

AND You're making the MASSIVE assumption that people can make their own loom up to a higher standard than the Clio standard engine loom which I'm sorry but 90% of people cant - myself included.

If you cant make your own loom, the Gen90 gets a lot more cost effective as labour is expensive.

But I'm starting to agree with Dan here - you've got an opinion stuck in your head and refuse to see logic so I'm out. I hope some of the advice from ITB'd Clio owners has been some help to the OP.

He can see your opinion of what is logical, he just doesnt totally agree with it, and he has plenty of good reasons not to that many of the rest of us can see too
The Gen90 wins on convenience, and therefore if you are paying labour it starts making it more competitive as a result because more convenience to install means less time taken and time is money, but if you can do the work yourself, then that win is a lot less useful and if you actually want a neat and tidy loom that perfectly fits your application with no excess weight and un needed plugs etc, then in fact the Gen90 then becomes the one that is more difficult to get to that perfect end result with.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Chip - even if you do replace the whole engine loom with an omex loom and new connectors - your dashboard, starting, fuel pump, lights etc.. etc.. are all running on a 10+ year old loom that you say can fail. So the only real argument for reliability on a track car is to replace the whole lot and whack a digi dash in - which is ££££££'s

I agree, the correct comparison for a typical road car IMHO is to compare the 60 quid semi assembled loom which then needs a couple of hours spending on it to join into the standard loom.
Thats a fair comparison as both ECU's are then in the same situation in terms of using the old loom etc and still having the standard dash.

At that point if you have to pay someone else to do that with the Omex, then the costs are basically the same as the money saved on the omex will be lost on the labour. Its only cheaper if you can do that sort of basic wiring yourself, and dont mind the amount of time it will take you (which will be more than a couple of hours by a fair margin if its your first time of course)

 

[Cup_Phil]

If you are trying to get people to all agree the gen90 is the best thing since sliced bread then you are doing, its a nice easy install but thats its only real advantage, and to people who actually ENJOY doing stuff like making a nice neat loom for their car with no old connections to cause problems and no excess plugs that arent required that isnt an advantage anyway, so you wont ever convince those people.

It wasn't my intention to say it's the best thing since sliced bread - it really isn't.
And I fully agree if you enjoy doing that stuff then fine - but you WILL end up with a dashboard lit up like a christmas tree which makes MOT's even more difficult to get under the new legislation. So I still argue that if you are using your car for road use then the Gen90 is a nicer solution and worth the money. For a pure track car then no it makes no sense at all

If you cant make your own loom, the Gen90 gets a lot more cost effective as labour is expensive.

That was the only point I was trying to make. Look at my Omex kit - 3 people have tried to make looms for it and all of them are appalling.
I have no doubt you and swede and a few others could make a very nice loom - but most of us cant and labour on that stuff is expensive. So the gen90 becomes very appealing.

He can see your opinion of what is logical, he just doesnt totally agree with it, and he has plenty of good reasons not to that many of the rest of us can see too
The Gen90 wins on convenience, and therefore if you are paying labour it starts making it more competitive as a result because more convenience to install means less time taken and time is money, but if you can do the work yourself, then that win is a lot less useful and if you actually want a neat and tidy loom that perfectly fits your application with no excess weight and un needed plugs etc, then in fact the Gen90 then becomes the one that is more difficult to get to that perfect end result with.

Fully agree with that - but again you do end up with a car that is very difficult to pass an MOT with

Sometimes I feel like a lot of you guys forget that some people fit ITB's and Cams to cars that still just get used on the road, and from personal experience taking the dials apart to cover warning lights up with bits of tape is a total pain in the ass
Oh and also my OCD goes nuts having the old ECU sat there doing nothing but a speedo/rev counter.. I wish I'd gone the gen90 route just so I could have a single ecu doing everything lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

On a ph1 like mine you dont get any warning lights with aftermarket if done correctly, but yes I agree some people wont want lights on for their ph2, the Gen90 makes that easy.

 

[Carbonraider]

Hi.. I've just picked up a gen90 ecu and ktr dth but my question is how do I go about fitting the ecu as it can't be as simple as plug and go.. Can it?

Thanks all

 

[Chip-mk1]

Hi.. I've just picked up a gen90 ecu and ktr dth but my question is how do I go about fitting the ecu as it can't be as simple as plug and go.. Can it?

Thanks all

There is a video where ktec show you how to do it, but yes its more or less that simple, couple of wires to swap about for the TPS but more or less just plug and go.
And obviously make sure you have a suitable map on it for with bodies.

 

[Carbonraider]

So don't I have to worry about immobilisers or anything like that or does that run on a different system.. And other than ktec do you know how can map these as I will be fitting cams also. Based in Chester thanks for info chip..

 

[Chip-mk1]

So don't I have to worry about immobilisers or anything like that or does that run on a different system.. And other than ktec do you know how can map these as I will be fitting cams also. Based in Chester thanks for info chip..

You could try RS Tuning in Leeds.
IIRC it just removes the immobiliser but check with Ktec to be sure.

 

[Laine_16v]

Hi.. I've just picked up a gen90 ecu and ktr dth but my question is how do I go about fitting the ecu as it can't be as simple as plug and go.. Can it?

Thanks all

Yes it is! You need an adaptor mini loom for the TPS plug but I would imagine that came with the DTH kit.

 

[EVOgone]

Gen90 becomes even more expensive if you want to fit it to a cup racer. Great solution but totally overpriced and a real shame.

1800 (800 quid extra than normal Gen90 price) for a 50 quid adaptor loom..., 800 pounds is a lot to pay for just conveinience...

 

[Silent_Scone]

Round and round... and round.



My 182 on 438s made such and such.

I don't see the point.

I think it's too expensive.

I think this kits better.



And the conclusion is, throttle bodies are awesome, cams and throttle bodies are even better. Cams on their own aren't all that. And last but not least, Omex 600 is still very capable.

Now what.

If you think the shelf kits are too expensive, don't buy them. Simple as that

 

[MG cup]

Great solution but totally overpriced and a shame

^^^^^^^^^
In a nut shell.

It isn't or wasn't my intention to get into a mud slinging contest. There's two sides, basically I don't think the ecu is worth the money. If you go for a gen90 and decide to fit yourself you will need to adjust wires to fit so no different in basic wiring skills to fitting and wiri g an omex In piggy back or standalone really. If your having someone fit the gen90 then labour costs will apply and will end up being around £1150 or there abouts posted and fitted. You can have a new wiring loom/ecu and fitted for that money with omex or similar.... that's why it's a no brainer for me.

The argument wasn't that its rubbish or inferior, just the price it is for what you could have.

 

[MG cup]

Round and round... and round.



My 182 on 438s made such and such.

I don't see the point.

I think it's too expensive.

I think this kits better.



And the conclusion is, throttle bodies are awesome, cams and throttle bodies are even better. Cams on their own aren't all that. And last but not least, Omex 600 is still very capable.

Now what.

If you think the shelf kits are too expensive, don't buy them. Simple as that

Exactly.

My opinion is different to the next persons, go with what you want but think what you are actually getting for the ££'s not just because a certain company sell's this.

 

[Dan519]

Gen90 becomes even more expensive if you want to fit it to a cup racer. Great solution but totally overpriced and a real shame.

1800 (800 quid extra than normal Gen90 price) for a 50 quid adaptor loom..., 800 pounds is a lot to pay for just conveinience...

the loom plugs are going on for £200 for that alone!! then there's the 100+ hours of development time with world class CANbus engineers thats made it possible. Yes life's free. LOL


Can't believe the comparison to a powerFC has been made. That's essentially a hacked stock ECU for most applications.

£1k is pretty much going to be the normal region of price for a decent ECU soon due to the tech and time that's going in from a lot of places.

If you want a realistic comparison of a GEN90 to omex, then look at a 710 which is ~£900 that then needs a £400 loom if you want a full clubman loom. No CANbus done for it to suit the clio, and software is still old.

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

the loom plugs are going on for £200 for that alone!! then there's the 100+ hours of development time with world class CANbus engineers thats made it possible. Yes life's free. LOL

People always forget how expensive R&D is.

If it was me (and I am bias as I can fit and map it myself) I'd bin all the standard gunf and run on Omex.

 

[Chip-mk1]

the loom plugs are going on for £200 for that alone!! then there's the 100+ hours of development time with world class CANbus engineers thats made it possible. Yes life's free. LOL


Can't believe the comparison to a powerFC has been made. That's essentially a hacked stock ECU for most applications.

£1k is pretty much going to be the normal region of price for a decent ECU soon due to the tech and time that's going in from a lot of places.

If you want a realistic comparison of a GEN90 to omex, then look at a 710 which is ~£900 that then needs a £400 loom if you want a full clubman loom. No CANbus done for it to suit the clio, and software is still old.

Its an interesting question as to where aftermarket ECU prices are going, things like CANBUS are now starting to be more well known and hence easier to incorporate and the cost of the hardware is far lower now if you create an ECU from scratch than something like an Omex 600 which is full of out of date components that can be replaced with cheaper and yet more capable modern alternatives.

I think ECU prices are probably going to come down not go up if anything in the long run.

 

[Cup M@]

You could try RS Tuning in Leeds.
IIRC it just removes the immobiliser but check with Ktec to be sure.

Is this safe to run until you get it remapped as looking to get this kit and fitting myself cheers
how much can I get a syncrometer for?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Is this safe to run until you get it remapped as looking to get this kit and fitting myself cheers
how much can I get a syncrometer for?

Without a wideband I personally wouldnt take anyone else's word that a map is safe, but talk to whoever is mapping it for you and see if they have a basemap they feel is suitable.

Syncrometer arent dear at all, I just use one like this which works fine:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carburett...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3cce02e52f

 

[Cup M@]

Cheers chip always sound advice

 

[Cup M@]

Chip just one more thing do I need an oil cooler or can I do without cheers

 

[Tony Hunter]

We run without.

 

[Cup M@]

We run without.

What are the benefits running with and cost to do thanks

 

[Tony Hunter]

What are the benefits running with and cost to do thanks

We run without.

 

[Cup M@]

We run without.

Just wondered if you knew

 

[mitch1503]

Assuming you are happy to keep with the standard loom (which as mentioned can corrode now these cars are 10+ years old) and have a load of unrequired connections on it etc, then its 60 including vat for a semi assembled omex loom that you can then join into it to allow the omex to take control of the injectors and coilpack etc
Comparing the price of a new complete loom for an Omex which then gives you a much neater solution and of course all new connections that arent full of 10 years of corrosion isnt really comparing like with like IMHO, and even then its still cheaper than the Gen90.

I can't help but laugh mind Chip when you keep going on about the standard corroded loom as isn't this infact what you splice in to with the OMEX loom? so your still effectively using the corroded loom that you keep mentioning

or am i missing something

 

[Tony Hunter]

Just wondered if you knew

You would need to run a thermostatic sandwich plate, to let the oil warm up before it goes through the cooler. Unles you are running really hot engine, I cannot see the need to run one, as said, we do 40min races, and don't feel the need to run one.

Takes up space and adds to unreliability issues.(more pipes=more joints etc) plus it can get damaged too easily.

Just my opinion, before everybody starts, bla bla bla.

 

[Cup M@]

You would need to run a thermostatic sandwich plate, to let the oil warm up before it goes through the cooler. Unles you are running really hot engine, I cannot see the need to run one, as said, we do 40min races, and don't feel the need to run one.

Takes up space and adds to unreliability issues.(more pipes=more joints etc) plus it can get damaged too easily.

Just my opinion, before everybody starts, bla bla bla.

cheers tony won't be putting one on all about keeping the cost down nice one

 

[Chip-mk1]

Chip just one more thing do I need an oil cooler or can I do without cheers

No real need tbh mate. Just use a decent oil. Unless you live somewhere hot or are doing endurance racing.
If you do fit a cooler use a thermostat one.

edit: beaten to it by tony.