Garage have cable tied the brake load sensing valve on my cup

[daddycool]

as above, it failed mot due to having 150 efficiency on rear nearside and 40 on rear offside. i told them it's low on the rears anyway and showed them the vosa newsletter. they weren't having anything and charged me to fit a new caliper, and it looks like they've cable tied the valve up, i guess because the new caliper didn't make much difference and to get the efficiency up and get it through its mot. they can't fail it for imbalance on the rear.

current plan is to go down there and ask them to remove the cable ties and show me the brake efficiency, and if it's low, ask for my money back.

or should i contact vosa?

http://i55.tinypic.com/f2ttmp.jpg

 

[Craigus]

Vosa

 

[daddycool]

or head office, which is halfords (former nationwide) auto centre

 

[MarkCup]

current plan is to go down there and ask them to remove the cable ties and show me the brake efficiency, and if it's low, ask for my money back.

I'd do this.

Where in Hampshire are you? I've always used Rentech in Portsmouth, can't fault them, and in 7 years/125k miles I've not once had an issue at MOT time with my rear brakes.

 

[daddycool]

north tip of hampshire, about 40 miles from portsmouth

 

[daddycool]

can't tell if this is cable tied to increase or decrease?

 

[Damo_Sport]

im about 30 miles from portsmouth and i still go to rentech every year

 

[daddycool]

spoke to the garage, didn't tell them anything, just asked why there were cable ties on the valve. apparently the fluid flowed better when they were bleeding and diagnosing with the lever pushed up, although they said they were getting around 90 before they cable tied and 100 after. i would have thought 50 or so without the cable ties.

as i said i didn't tell them anything, just enquired. will wait for some more posts in here before i decide what to do. i don't even know how the valve works so don't know if they've cable tied to increase the efficiency.

 

[Adam.]

My understanding of this (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that when you brake in the cup the rear end lifts slighty. In doing so it 'closes' the valve reducing the flow of fluid to the rear calipers. This stops rear wheel lock up as a result of no abs. Therefore I'd assume that by cable tying it open means the back end will lock up a lot easier and possibly result in you losing the back end under braking.

Again, this is my understanding of it from 2 minutes of looking at it when removing one so I may be wrong.
:dead:

 

[daddycool]

no, the lever doesn't touch anything on the back. on cars that have the rod and spring in place and actually use the valve, when the weight at the back increases (passengers or boot) it increases the efficiency on the rear brakes to compensate for the extra load. not active on the cup due to lack of abs. that's my understanding.
i just want to make sure that what they have done in the pic DOES increase the efficiency to the rear, then i can go in with "so you've used cable ties to alter the brake efficiency to the rear of the car, thus altering the brakes from the manufacturers specification to get the car through it's mot and making the car dangerous to drive in the process" or something to that effect. not forgetting the fact they've had to use cable ties to increase the efficiency, means i probably didn't need a new caliper in the first place.

 

[daddycool]

or go to vosa, seeing as it might be quite a serious matter

 

[Adam.]

Hmm on the cup I had it was all linked up properly :S

Had it been f'ked with before I got it then? Werid.

 

[daddycool]

i got the black box with the brake likes going into it, and a lever with a hole in the end, but there's no rod or spring connecting the lever to the car

 

[Bassplayer]

Get hold of VOSA asap. Don't drive the car if you can avoid it. They will then arrange an appeal test. Gawd help the tester, this will be a disciplinary for them! You do need to take action as soon as poss on this - any delays will weaken your case. Good luck. Let us know how you get on. any further advice needed pm me.

 

[daddycool]

i would, just want to know if they've cable tied it the right way to increase efficiency, i'm not 100% on how the lever operates on other cars

 

[Bassplayer]

i would, just want to know if they've cable tied it the right way to increase efficiency, i'm not 100% on how the lever operates on other cars

As the car is loaded up the lever is pushed to open the valve and allow more pressure to the brakes. Very common on most fwd cars. They have cable tied it to open the valve and increase the pressure to the brakes. Wouldn't want to be braking hard in the wet in your car as it is that's for sure!

 

[daddycool]

so is the lever usually connected to the rear beam and pushed up on other cars, as opposed to being connected to the underside of the car and pushed down?

 

[daddycool]

after PMing bassplayer for advice but getting no love from vosa or trading standards i went to the garage, played it cool, asked them how the valve worked, got it on the rollers and it showed efficiency of 100 each side on the rear, then got them to cut the cable ties off and it showed 175 on the nearside rear and 50 on the passenger rear. considering it was the passenger rear caliper that got replaced and only showed 40 before swapping the caliper out, i asked for a refund and they agreed, didn't take much. got to wait for them to dig out the old caliper so they can swap it back in and get head office to issue refund. so getting somewhere, looking forward to my £300 back.

just got the issue of dodgy load sensor valve to sort out

 

[mark123]

I cable tie mine for the MOT, but I have locked the rears with it cable tied up so wouldn't recommend driving it with it like that.

Glad you got them to offer a refund.

 

[Curtis!]

after PMing bassplayer for advice but getting no love from vosa or trading standards i went to the garage, played it cool, asked them how the valve worked, got it on the rollers and it showed efficiency of 100 each side on the rear, then got them to cut the cable ties off and it showed 175 on the nearside rear and 50 on the passenger rear. considering it was the passenger rear caliper that got replaced and only showed 40 before swapping the caliper out, i asked for a refund and they agreed, didn't take much. got to wait for them to dig out the old caliper so they can swap it back in and get head office to issue refund. so getting somewhere, looking forward to my £300 back.

just got the issue of dodgy load sensor valve to sort out

300 quid to just swap the caliper over?

Or Diagnostic/Mot aswell?

 

[daddycool]

Diagnosis, new caliper, fitting, fluid flush, etc.

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[Rob669]

Stop messing around with it now - go to Rentech or Ktec and get it sorted.

 

[James105]

Glad you got a result! Have you got a link to this Vosa Newsletter you speak of?

 

[daddycool]

Stop messing around with it now - go to Rentech or Ktec and get it sorted.

but garage have agreed to replace with original caliper and issue refund!

 

[daddycool]

Glad you got a result! Have you got a link to this Vosa Newsletter you speak of?

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/MoT Issue 31 - Apr 2006.pdf

 

[daddycool]

garage are making the right sounds- "mechanic will face disciplinary action" "no problems with the refund" etc, but still no action, no word on changing the caliper back over or when the refund will be done

so i'm about to call them. no answers = i'll be calling their head office and dealing with them instead...

 

[Fred@BTM]

they will have sent the old caliper back on exchange probably - ie they don't have it anymore, i'd just give you the new one and take the money off the mechanics wages

 

[daddycool]

yeah i guessed they would have exchanged it already. just spoke to them and their area manager is in so he's gone off to speak to the area manager and will call me back in five minutes. that was ten minutes ago and counting. ho hum. another call at 1230 me thinks

 

[daddycool]

Called head office instead. At least I feel like I'll see some action now.

EDIT still haven't had a call back from mr five minutes

 

[daddycool]

update...
i never did get a call back from the garage. apparently the regional manager had been trying to call me, turns out they had a slightly different phone number.
(don't know why he couldn't have asked the garage for the right number...) anyway eventually spoke to them and they've sent me a cheque for the £294 and haven't asked for the new caliper back. i asked for compensation but they weren't playing ball. i'm still considering pressing this with vosa, and apparently i can file a report with the police too. there's a section called "use, cause, allow" or something in the road traffic act, in this case they have allowed me to go back on the road with a known defects to the brakes. criminal offence on the face of it. i wonder if raising THAT with the area manager will get me some silence money

it's jms from now on i think, or deepcut garages which i've heard good things about.

 

[the_jons]

My cup has failed my first MOT with the car on rear brakes... "Rear (both) rear brake recording little or no effort [3.7.A.4a]", I expected this, I'd read the forum on this issue so went prepared with the vosa pdf. The tester refused to believe this document saying along the lines of "it's dangerous / I can't pass a dangerous car / renault should do a recall" etc. Now, I've replied in this thread as people have mentioned & depicted cable tied load sensors to help pass the MOT... BUT, the VOSA document states
"Only the Cup version of the Clio does not have an actuating arm fitted as standard. This version does not have ABS as standard and the pressure regulator within the valve is set to a predetermined value at the factory."
The wording here suggests that the cups are built with fixed valving internally and the position of the arm has no effect? I suspect this more as standard 172's don't seem to have an issue despite having the same rear calliper, and the valve probably towards a mid position during a test. My guess is that cups would be valved at worst case (no rear load, heavy vehicle pitching forward motion and minimal rear traction - the ABS on standard cars would detect rears locking and relive rear pressure in this case, cups obviously can't - no abs - so run the "safer" worst case)
For my MOT, the arm was as high as it could be, simulating a heavily loaded rear giving maximum braking effort on the rear (if the arm works, more rear braking effort in the test case than a standard 172), however it only got 20ish%.
Has anyone ever dismantled (or actually know the inner workings of) a cup spec load sensing valve to see if they are fixed valving, or if moving the arm actually affects rear braking? The tester was going to clarify the issue with VOSA over this week (the test was on Saturday and VOSA are office hours mon - fri)

 

[daddycool]

the position of the arm does have an effect. you moved it in the right direction, the higher the arm the greater the rear braking pressure. problem is, due to no movement they must disentegrate inside over time.

you may need to go the official route with regards to challenging the test result, which means a vosa engineer has to come out and test it. costs the same as an mot. if it passes, you get the test refunded. if not, god knows. it must be tempting to ask the garage to diagnose and fix the problem, hopefully they quickly realise that they can't

for my next mot i'll either take it somewhere that know what they're doing (ie a renaultsport specialist nominated station) or perhaps get one of these springs and fit it just for the mot.

although my biggest concern next february will be finding a garage that will pass it with the cat in the boot.

 

[the_jons]

I contacted VOSA directly today to clarify the PDF document referenced earlier, and got the VOSA bod to email me through the specific wording for MOT centers...
"Good Afternoon,
Thank you for your recent telephone enquiry.
I have viewed our VOSA technical database which has given me the following information regarding Brake efforts on a Renault Clio Cup 172.
Renault Clio Cup 172 & 182 Rear Brake efforts Clio Cup rear brakes max effort is normally about 30 kg on the rear.
Renault advise that they have had the same where the effort can be 10kg but when road testing the brakes are fine. Renault also advise that in most cases if rear disc and pads are replaced the effort creeps up to 30 after the brakes have been bedded in.
Note: Some vehicles may return quite high readings. There have been instances reported where this may be due to seized components or incorrectly adjusted valves.
I hope this information has assisted you with your enquiry, if you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us again."
So therefore only 10kg braking effort on the rear is "acceptable"!

 

[bmh.01]

Its just a normal rear bias valve that they fix to a set position and don't fit the arm to at the factory. Shouldn't really be touched but some of them have had the arm fitted in error by garages trying to get the rear efficiency up.

Tieing the valve closed simulates having weight in the back of the car with the arm connected and opens the valve to increase the rear braking effort. Can end up swapping ends under heavy braking if you aren't careful.

FF models is a different ballgame as its all controlled by the EBD system.

 

[mark123]

The way the valve works is that the lever is pushed down by a little piston when you press the brake this reduces the pressure to the rears. With the spring in place it acts against this - the spring causes the lever to push back against the piston. Thus if you cable tie the lever up tight against the car it can't move and you get maximum rear effort.

If you get someone to press the brake while you put your hand on the lever you can feel it move down, unless the lever is seized.

 

[daddycool]

do you know what exact components are missing from the cup?

 

[bmh.01]

None that shouldn't be missing on purpose. They are not connected to the rear beam from the factory, its pre set as said previously.

 

[daddycool]

the plan is to fit one for the mot just to make life easier. i'm off to a breakers yard next week would be good to get an idea of what is required.

 

[skiptontweed]

On a 172 Cup this valve is set by the factory and is unaffected by moving the arm.

can't tell if this is cable tied to increase or decrease?

 

[daddycool]

Are u sure? When my arm was cable tied up the brake efficiency increased

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