VenomUK
ClioSport Club Member
Clio 172
If you need a hand or use of the truck to take it anywhere for mapping then I'm happy to help mate.
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Gen90 DIY mapping/calibration thread
- Thread starter scruffydubber
- Start date
KitsonRis
ClioSport Club Member
Nice one thanks. It was either your truck or borrow a trailer and tow it but I have never towed anything before so would be a little nervious doing it as my first time. Not going to get any more time on it for a few weeks though now but the one thing to do it put the new ECU in.
VenomUK
ClioSport Club Member
Clio 172
I towed for a little while and I wasn't that confident with it and always worried that when I get to my destination is there enough room to move around because reversing was tricky hence why I decided to get a truck instead. I towed with a 2004 Audi A4 Avant and that's a lump but even with the weight of a lightweight trailer and a stripped out Clio you could still feel the weight behind you and I didn't really like it.
Sorry for getting into not my business.. but.. this got me very interested because I think exactly the same and I was considering something like that for the future. Can you please tell me more about it?? Even by pm to not get too much sidetalk in the ecu topic.thanks
Does anyone experienced a solid red light and no rev counter working?
I had when just installed the ecu before mapping.. and it popped out yesterday again.
I also opened a thread in faults..
cliosport.net
I had when just installed the ecu before mapping.. and it popped out yesterday again.
I also opened a thread in faults..
Gen90 and solid red light on dash
Hello guys.. I am facing (again) a problem with my gen90, and I am already beginning of feel fed up of this thing. Today I decided to do a testdrive because tomorrow I would have had a trackday. If I turn key tosecond position the red light stay solid and it does not crank nor do clicking. If I...
cliosport.net
Looking at doing the same thing, however, From what I can see the above pinout is for an LSU 4.9, wheras the pinout for an LSU 4.2 is different:
So by my reckoning, the table for connecting an LSU 4.2 to a gen 90 should look like this:
| Bosch Pin No. | Gen90 pin | Description |
| 6 | 21 | Wideband 2 Red IP |
| 5 | 19 | Wideband 1 Yellow VM |
| 4 | 80 | OX Heater ground White H - |
| 3 | 65 | OX Heater + Grey O25 |
| 2 | 25 | Wideband 4 violet IA |
| 1 | 22 | Wideband 3 Black UN A7 |
Does that look correct, or am I full of crap?
BTW, ANyone looking for Gen 90 GIN files... It's not particularly intuitive, but if you are using GenTuner Pro, it actually puts the GIM files in here when you install it, however it doesn't set this to be the default folder to search when looking for GIN files. By default c:\programdata is a hidden folder and won't show in windows explorer unless you have told it to show hidden folders, but perhaps this will save someone the pain of having to contact KTEC to get a GIN file, that is probably on their computer anyway, albeit hidden away.
Audi
The GEMS software is truly horrific, one of the worst I've ever used. Good find.
But those .gin files are odd. If I search for them on my computer I can find them and that path, but when I open my C: drive and look for the folder ProgramData, it does not appear to exist.
Yet through the search I can go direct to the folder and up a level back to the C; Drive.
Weird. GEMS make nothing easy
KitsonRis
ClioSport Club Member
For those with a Ph1 running a Gen90 it is likely to come with a base map for a Ph2.
As I found out today it will think it is at full throttle at all times and will need the pin coding in the ECU to correct this. My spark plugs were ruined and need some new ones beucase it was over fueling like crazy.
Just a heads up if someone stumbles accross this in the future.
As I found out today it will think it is at full throttle at all times and will need the pin coding in the ECU to correct this. My spark plugs were ruined and need some new ones beucase it was over fueling like crazy.
Just a heads up if someone stumbles accross this in the future.
Audi
the base map on the one I had to look at was not setup correctly either. yes it did start and run, but they didn't even have MAP compensation applied when it was supplied with a supercharged kit
Still haven't been able to figure out which is pedal and throttle position to ensure the DBW aspects are setup correctly.
Fortunately the car had other issues so it's back with it's owner for them to be resolved before further work. Horrible horrible ecu's though
OK, Well this is a DIY mapping and calibration thread, So let's talk about all the other ECU tables and settings other than the obvious fuel and spark maps.
I'm trying to teach myself this stuff, and there a few bits and pieces in the base map I got that I think might be 'suboptimal'. First things first... Idle. Now I would expect the Idle Scatter Spark Table to pass through 0 in both Axis, but you can clearly see in the basemap I have it does not.
My GEN90 Basemap
To me, that means that even if even if the idle speed is optimal, it's still retarding the spark by 3.5 degrees? Surely when the engine speed is exactly right, you don't touch the spark?
Also, looking through other base maps, the curve, or lack of, seems to be radically different. Are there any tuning gurus here that could share any knowledge they have?
For example, this is another graph from a different Gen90 ECU basemap... See it's VERY different...
Idle Scatter graph from the WB GEN90 Cal in this thread
Anyway, if anyone knows this stuff better than I do (wouldn't be hard) I'd appreciate some guidance. I'm a bit of a perfectionist (Well optimalist I reckon. I like to have things configured in an 'optimal' manner).
There are many more tables I'd love to go through and get guidance on, but in the interest of not clogging up the thread, I'll try and address one at once.
Let's see what replies I get, and how many are conflicting.
Oh, and thanks for your assistance to anyone who takes the time to share what they know.
I'm trying to teach myself this stuff, and there a few bits and pieces in the base map I got that I think might be 'suboptimal'. First things first... Idle. Now I would expect the Idle Scatter Spark Table to pass through 0 in both Axis, but you can clearly see in the basemap I have it does not.
My GEN90 Basemap
To me, that means that even if even if the idle speed is optimal, it's still retarding the spark by 3.5 degrees? Surely when the engine speed is exactly right, you don't touch the spark?
Also, looking through other base maps, the curve, or lack of, seems to be radically different. Are there any tuning gurus here that could share any knowledge they have?
For example, this is another graph from a different Gen90 ECU basemap... See it's VERY different...
Idle Scatter graph from the WB GEN90 Cal in this thread
Anyway, if anyone knows this stuff better than I do (wouldn't be hard) I'd appreciate some guidance. I'm a bit of a perfectionist (Well optimalist I reckon. I like to have things configured in an 'optimal' manner).
There are many more tables I'd love to go through and get guidance on, but in the interest of not clogging up the thread, I'll try and address one at once.
Let's see what replies I get, and how many are conflicting.
Oh, and thanks for your assistance to anyone who takes the time to share what they know.
Actually - I know it's a long shot, but I don't suppose anyone has access to the data from similar tables off an OEM ECU, EIther with a Stock or a RSTUner type tune? I figure Renault probably know what they are doing in the way of idle control, injector angle etc, voltage and temperature compensation etc. So it would be great to see that data. Maybe somebody has the RSTuner AIO suite who might be able to pull that data from a stock Renault ECU cal? I realise there is unlikely to be a 1:1 data match with the tables between different ECU's, but at the very least it should be educational. I'd even consider purchasing the RSTuner AIO suite just for that, but it seems Henk isn't selling it anymore (He probably over trying to support noobs like me if I had to guess).
Touring_Rob
ClioSport Club Member
Its an interesting one tbh. Your GEN90 is doing 'scatter spark idle' the same way that megaquirt does it. Other ecu's (including OEM I bet) tend to use a PID closed loop idle timing strategy which when tuned works really well.
With regard to your two example graphs above, top/bottom.
Top, yes you would expect 0,0, however it looks like someone has tuned this incrementally to achieve a stable idle with too much advance in the main ignition table. Its not really wrong that its off zero tbh just not what you would expect. I like to set by base idle timing to be 2-5deg off peak. Traditionally with carbs etc. you could adjust advance until you achieved maximum vacuum (inlet ref), more advance would do little to the vac reading, too much more and you would drop vac.
Where as backing off from peak idle advance gives you the flexibility to add timing to speed up idle, or remove timing to slow idle. Before tuning the idle ignition (scatter for you) table you should first disable it and get the idle as good as you can possibly get it, for me that would mean adjusting the throttle stop (if you don't run an idle valve) with a hot engine to set base idle speed. You will likely find the the car hunts on idle and you can to a large degree totally fix that in the timing and fuel tables.
You will see RPM go down, load go up, RPM go up load go down in a constant circle, the smaller you make that circle the more stable your idle will be. You want AFR to be stable across all load points in idle, if I am running spark advance idle I often make all idle ignition cells the same value, a value a few degrees off optimum. Its ok to richen up idle for the time being to settle it down a bit too.
With regard to your two example graphs above, top/bottom.
Top, yes you would expect 0,0, however it looks like someone has tuned this incrementally to achieve a stable idle with too much advance in the main ignition table. Its not really wrong that its off zero tbh just not what you would expect. I like to set by base idle timing to be 2-5deg off peak. Traditionally with carbs etc. you could adjust advance until you achieved maximum vacuum (inlet ref), more advance would do little to the vac reading, too much more and you would drop vac.
Where as backing off from peak idle advance gives you the flexibility to add timing to speed up idle, or remove timing to slow idle. Before tuning the idle ignition (scatter for you) table you should first disable it and get the idle as good as you can possibly get it, for me that would mean adjusting the throttle stop (if you don't run an idle valve) with a hot engine to set base idle speed. You will likely find the the car hunts on idle and you can to a large degree totally fix that in the timing and fuel tables.
You will see RPM go down, load go up, RPM go up load go down in a constant circle, the smaller you make that circle the more stable your idle will be. You want AFR to be stable across all load points in idle, if I am running spark advance idle I often make all idle ignition cells the same value, a value a few degrees off optimum. Its ok to richen up idle for the time being to settle it down a bit too.
Touring_Rob
ClioSport Club Member
With everything as good as you can get it reenable your scatter spark.
Then start loading up the engine, fans, lights, drag the clutch in gear. Your mission is you make the RPM as steady as possible, you are creating an RPM idle error by loading the engine at idle. The steeper you make the gradient (TOP table is very steep) the faster the engine will correct. You cannot be too fast (steep) because you can create instability that way - its like having too much proportional gain, this is P closed loop only, you are missing the integral and differential parts of PID which help settle everything down.
The larger your P term the faster the error is corrected, the smaller it is the slower it is corrected. A small P term results in an offset error where you never reach target. A large (too large) P term overshoots target and causes hunting around target, sometimes this hunting grows larger with each cycle. In the first (top) graph by having the zero timing to the left of target the user has added some sudo D term - I don't know if that's intentional but it would certainly help settle hunting down if the P term was too large. More likely they just had too much timing around idle in the main table and the engine was happier with a few degrees less.
Make the gradient as steep as you can, if you are able to set idle target RPM in another table (by temperature for example) then you can sort your top table out to be 0,0. In this instance you might find that you need to set your base idle (throttle stop) if you are not running valve to be several hundred RPM higher than you would like when warm just so the car has a chance of idling when cold. The scatter spark should take care of that nicely as it will see it as an error.
TOP table looks tuned, however i wouldn't have the downward tails a each end, but these are in areas of the graph you shouldn't get to anyway so likely not a big deal. Bottom table actually just looks like a default untuned table.
I would probably aim for something more like this:
You should never get to the outside areas of the graph. But a lot depends on your setup, if you have an idle valve that should take care of the slow error, the scatter the fast.
Typed in a bit of a rush but if anything looks wrong or is unclear let me know!
Then start loading up the engine, fans, lights, drag the clutch in gear. Your mission is you make the RPM as steady as possible, you are creating an RPM idle error by loading the engine at idle. The steeper you make the gradient (TOP table is very steep) the faster the engine will correct. You cannot be too fast (steep) because you can create instability that way - its like having too much proportional gain, this is P closed loop only, you are missing the integral and differential parts of PID which help settle everything down.
The larger your P term the faster the error is corrected, the smaller it is the slower it is corrected. A small P term results in an offset error where you never reach target. A large (too large) P term overshoots target and causes hunting around target, sometimes this hunting grows larger with each cycle. In the first (top) graph by having the zero timing to the left of target the user has added some sudo D term - I don't know if that's intentional but it would certainly help settle hunting down if the P term was too large. More likely they just had too much timing around idle in the main table and the engine was happier with a few degrees less.
Make the gradient as steep as you can, if you are able to set idle target RPM in another table (by temperature for example) then you can sort your top table out to be 0,0. In this instance you might find that you need to set your base idle (throttle stop) if you are not running valve to be several hundred RPM higher than you would like when warm just so the car has a chance of idling when cold. The scatter spark should take care of that nicely as it will see it as an error.
TOP table looks tuned, however i wouldn't have the downward tails a each end, but these are in areas of the graph you shouldn't get to anyway so likely not a big deal. Bottom table actually just looks like a default untuned table.
I would probably aim for something more like this:
You should never get to the outside areas of the graph. But a lot depends on your setup, if you have an idle valve that should take care of the slow error, the scatter the fast.
Typed in a bit of a rush but if anything looks wrong or is unclear let me know!
Last edited:
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
Don’t suppose anybody has a map file they can send me?
Looking for any map that runs itb’s, standard 172/182 injectors and a gen90
Got a weird problem with having power at injectors but they’re not firing. All usual checks seem okay, want to rule out a file issue incase I accidentally changed some settings I shouldn’t have.
Looking for any map that runs itb’s, standard 172/182 injectors and a gen90
Got a weird problem with having power at injectors but they’re not firing. All usual checks seem okay, want to rule out a file issue incase I accidentally changed some settings I shouldn’t have.
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
You’ll always have power (12v) at the injectors mate. They’re fired by the ecu giving them an earth signal, so I’d say it’s possibly not the cal file.
Audi
If they are not firing, it's either the cal file or crank/cam etc not right. Of course it all has to be right...
I would query how he has tested whether the injectors are not firing though, and as you say, with key on, there should be 12v power present at one injector pin
Touring_Rob
ClioSport Club Member
Do you get an RPM reading when you crank?
Does the GEN90 have an injector test mode (would be surprised if it doesn't)? That way you should be able to pulse injectors and hear them click.
Does the GEN90 have an injector test mode (would be surprised if it doesn't)? That way you should be able to pulse injectors and hear them click.
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
I've taken the injectors out (with rail) and started the car, no fuel comes out of the injectors. I've also removed the fuel line to the rail and fuel is present in the feed line.
It's so weird, I drove it out of the garage to do some work on the car, and 2 hours later it wouldn't start back up. I'm stumped.
I was messing around with the software earlier in the day (I have mapping at the end of the month, was trying to get the throttle to not show 100%, similar issue to what KitsonRis had) and was wondering if I did anything. I don't think I did so unlikely to be the map file.
The car is a Mk1 Clio running F4R with phase 1 172 loom, repinned to suit ph1 > ph2 for the Gen 90. I've repinned it and had the car running maybe 10-15 times but on Saturday it had that issue where I drove it out the garage and 2 hours later it wouldn't start and I've not been able to get it running since.
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
Yep on cranking it shows about 250rpm (on Gentuner)
Touring_Rob
ClioSport Club Member
Is the car still showing 100% tps? Some cars have flood clear which cuts fuel when tps is 100%.
Do you have a multimeter? One of the contacts on each injector connector should be 12V when you measure between contact and ground, not when you measure across both connector contacts.
Did you save the map file before you started playing? If not, does Gentuner save historic copies, something you can revert back to as this would rule out the changes you made.
Do you have a multimeter? One of the contacts on each injector connector should be 12V when you measure between contact and ground, not when you measure across both connector contacts.
Did you save the map file before you started playing? If not, does Gentuner save historic copies, something you can revert back to as this would rule out the changes you made.
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
It does still show 100% TPS yep
I do have a multimeter and all injectors show 12v when measured with one pin on them and the other to ground
I will check - I think it had an auto save function but I only briefly played with it and it did start after I disconnected it albeit only once and when I tried 2 hours later (and since) nothing.
Audi
Does their TPS relate to the blade, or pedal ?
I did look on the one I was working at, so I could ensure both stops were set correctly...but damned if I could actually find both blade and the pedal position sensor setups. Horrible software.
I did look on the one I was working at, so I could ensure both stops were set correctly...but damned if I could actually find both blade and the pedal position sensor setups. Horrible software.
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
Blade
It’s weird, even adjusting it has no effect on the reading it just says 100% - there must be a setting somewhere.
Audi
So was it reading differently/correctly before ?
If you knew the raw inputs you could see if the voltage was changing on both tracks as you move either the pedal or the blade itself ( do not touch a DBW blade with your fingers though, they can be quite powerful...so be careful ! )
DBW will have 2 tracks on each. 2 for the blade, and 2 for the pedal. Problem with GEMS, is they don't label things or call them proper names !
Touring_Rob
ClioSport Club Member
Have a search for an injector test mode, after that try to find a display for injector pulse width, this should be the pulse width that the ECU thinks it should be driving the injectors at, if that says zero then its an ecu settings issue.
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
It came off another car (182) which it was okay on - but I’ve only tested it on my car. I’ve tested the signal wire from the TPS and opened the throat and that seems to work on the multimeter.
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
Okay good shout, I’ll do that and report back
Audi
So you've changed the DBW unit and this has lead to a non start ?
Or is this a normal non DBW throttle ?
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
Apologies the 182 is came off had cable throttle - same as mine
Audi
And was your old unit faulty ?
Can you fit the throttle position sensor from your old one, onto the new one ? Or was that the reason you changed ?
If you connected to the software, you should be able to see the throttle position input changing as you open and close it. If you can find which raw analogue input it is.
Can you fit the throttle position sensor from your old one, onto the new one ? Or was that the reason you changed ?
If you connected to the software, you should be able to see the throttle position input changing as you open and close it. If you can find which raw analogue input it is.
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
No apologies I may have mis communicated. The DTH itb and Gen 90 kit was removed from a working 182. I then fitted it to my car (mk1 Clio with f4r conversion using ph1 loom). Had it all running after doing the required repin changes. Then after driving it outside to do some work on the car (non engine related) it didn’t restart after approx 2 hours. V strange.
bass_direct
ClioSport Club Member
375bhp mk1 +Williams
Update from last night - it would appear it may have this flood clear as my tps was at 100% for a while
After checking the wiring again with the help of my mate, we were happy that all sensors, injectors and wiring were all as they should be. Playing around with the ECU, we found the TPS input settings here -
We changed the ‘throttle source’ and it let us adjust the TPS raw, min/max values. Tried to fire it up on the off chance and it started fine. Seems so weird but it’s working now
Thanks to everybody that helped!
adir
ClioSport Club Member
clio 172
Hi mate,
did you got the Wideband to work directly to the ECU?
Also.. I couldn’t figure the right PIN number for using external Wideband controller. Any thoughts how to set it up?
incy-spider
ClioSport Club Member
Hello guys, has anyone managed to get a canbus gauge working on a Gen90 mainly for AFR, boost, coolant temp, IAT.. basic stuff? I know the CAN H and CAN L connections but not really dabbled with dash’s, gauges etc other than standalone ones
adir
ClioSport Club Member
clio 172
did you or anyone figured it out?
I still haven’t..
No idea where goes the AFR controller 5V signal to the ecu and how to config it.
Also not for CAN or any other features this ECU have.
according to Gems, who I wrote with smone who tried to support my so crying email, begging for some basic info about their project
saying they struggling keeping up tech support at present as they have had a retirement of staff and are looking for a replacement.
not only that,
“The Clio 172 works with GWV4 software or Gen tuner or Gen tuner Pro al these products are development by us for sale. GWV3 is an older level and although it will communicate it will not show all the features of Clio Ecu. The product was developed by us for K-Tec and they are responsible for support, if you have issues we may be able to help.
The wideband Lambda input uses a Bosch chipset, I don’t believe many K-tec customers use this input. I may be also be able to find pinout data.
well, apparently he couldn’t help, as mentioned above, they don’t have tech support.
Any way,
I’m missing the AFR and figure out why knock sensor is also not working, although the wiring and pinout all OK.
And she is ready for tuning.
Or a different ECU, because this one really starts getting in my nerves.
Audi
did you or anyone figured it out?
I still haven’t..
No idea where goes the AFR controller 5V signal to the ecu and how to config it.
Also not for CAN or any other features this ECU have.
according to Gems, who I wrote with smone who tried to support my so crying email, begging for some basic info about their project
saying they struggling keeping up tech support at present as they have had a retirement of staff and are looking for a replacement.
not only that,
“The Clio 172 works with GWV4 software or Gen tuner or Gen tuner Pro al these products are development by us for sale. GWV3 is an older level and although it will communicate it will not show all the features of Clio Ecu. The product was developed by us for K-Tec and they are responsible for support, if you have issues we may be able to help.
The wideband Lambda input uses a Bosch chipset, I don’t believe many K-tec customers use this input. I may be also be able to find pinout data.
well, apparently he couldn’t help, as mentioned above, they don’t have tech support.
Any way,
I’m missing the AFR and figure out why knock sensor is also not working, although the wiring and pinout all OK.
And she is ready for tuning.
Or a different ECU, because this one really starts getting in my nerves.
Really the only positive about this kit....is just that, it plugs in and dash etc works.
GEMS is, and always has been horrific to use, with very little in the software making much sense compared to lots of other ecu platforms. Just nothing is self explanatory, and there is no easy reference I/O schedule to try and make sense of anything within the software.
Yes, I hate GEMS lol.
I even bought a car recently with an AEM Infinity, which is GEMS based. It is a big improvement over other GEMS I've used, although still awkward to use, and in some regards quite limiting as it's fond of "wizards" to get things done.
But it still sucks.
Audi
that’s sucks
I really need to consider different paths.
New loom all over again
If you have a dedicated loom for a standalone ecu, it should not be difficult to re-pin or adapt to a new ecu.
OEM loom could be altered too, or make a patch harness if needed.
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