Good natured ZR160 debate...

[ricjax99]

This arguement is pretty much apples to oranges by the looks of things 110hp vs 160hp, experienced driver vs. average driver eh??? lol!

In the assumption this is your "original point" i hope you have another point to make as this one is... well, quite obvious really

"..But back to my original point, a well driven ZR160 can beat a average driver in a Clio 182 on testing roads (not a motorway!) In just the same way a 182 in the right hands can spank a Subaru Imprezza"

Whats your view of the point in that may I ask?

If im reading into what you are trying to say correctly, you are basically saying that "car A" with an experienced driver can beat "car B" with an less experienced driver than car A, when car A and Car B are of a similar level of performance.

Does it matter what car A and B are?

Shoot me for being simplistic but arent you just stating the obvious here? Clearly you are. With that in mind you really have no point at all here. You could apply your logic to the BTCC, WRC, F1 etc etc. The car makes little difference (as long as they are of a similar level of performance).
But then again what would i know, i only drive a 1.4

 

[Mitchy]

Ricjax you really are a numpty....

Its 172/182 vs ZR160, wheres this 110bhp crap coming from?

People on cliosport seem to think a clio is indestructable on a track.Id pretty much say rally matt knows what hes talking about, he is indeed a professional rally driver. He doesnt claim the 160 is a faster straight line car than a 172/182, he claims its a better handling car.

Whos to say it isnt? Some numpty nuts in a 10yr old 1.4 clio Have you taken a 172/182 or a ZR round a track??

Matt has thus giving a VALID contribution

 

[ricjax99]

Quote: Originally posted by Mitchy on 21 October 2004


Ricjax you really are a numpty....

Its 172/182 vs ZR160, wheres this 110bhp crap coming from?

People on cliosport seem to think a clio is indestructable on a track.Id pretty much say rally matt knows what hes talking about, he is indeed a professional rally driver. He doesnt claim the 160 is a faster straight line car than a 172/182, he claims its a better handling car.

Whos to say it isnt? Some numpty nuts in a 10yr old 1.4 clio Have you taken a 172/182 or a ZR round a track??

Matt has!!!






Heh, youll have to excuse the fact i havent read all 6 pages but i did pick up on the fact standard 1.6 dynamiques were compared to ZR160s were they not.

But still what I focused on was entirely true, i never once mentioned that either car is faster than the other (or did i? )

His original point was a driver in a ZR160 would beat a 172/182 driven by a lesser driver, excuse the american slang here but.. "well duh!".

What i have or havent driven doesnt even come into it any idiot knows its usually the driver that makes the difference. If a numpty is what i am what does that make someone who cant/didt read what they are replying to?

Grabbed your quote before you edited mitchy, just goes to show what level were at eh? tut tut

 

[blink172]

before this gets out of hand, forget what youve read in this thread. Its moved onto a 172/182 Vs a ZR160. Both must be std. At a race track in the future for a head to head. Theres no point having 2 parties argueing their corners as your not getting anywhere quickly

 

[Rally Matt]

You would need to read the whole thing to put that in context, the thread was originally started over on the xpower forum!

Everyone will agree the performance on paper is similar, statistically the Clio is superior by a reasonable margin, however can the ZR overcome the mechanical deficeit through handling, and in certain circumstances it has done.

Its not meant to be a definative statement, very little in life is! (Death is I suppose)

"Handling" is a very complex subject and can be judged in many ways. If peeps want me to expand on what I mean I will, but I wouldnt want to bore you all any more than I have done already!

 

[blink172]

Dont spoil a good natured debate with a stat attack and opinions

[Edited by blink172 on 21 October 2004 at 12:51pm]

This isnt aimed at matt

 

[TheJesus]

Quote: Originally posted by Mitchy on 21 October 2004


Ricjax you really are a numpty....

Its 172/182 vs ZR160, wheres this 110bhp crap coming from? - well it was mentioned at the beginning of the post if you care to read it again... now its 172/182 VS ZR160

People on cliosport seem to think a clio is indestructable on a track.Id pretty much say rally matt knows what hes talking about, he is indeed a professional rally driver. He doesnt claim the 160 is a faster straight line car than a 172/182, he claims its a better handling car. - you will get this anywhere, I remember a certain Scooby owner that was just as bad if not worse for bigging up himself and his car

Whos to say it isnt? Have you taken a 172/182 or a ZR round a track?? - whos to say it is though, the opinion will be slightly biased, plus theres the fact that the driver is much more experienced in one car compared to the other.

Matt has thus giving a VALID contribution - He has a fair play to the lad, only thing now is a proper comparison. Think it should start with 1/4 miles as its easy to arrange and it will put to bed the thought that one is miles quicker than the other or if they are pretty evenly matched.

 

[ricjax99]

Ok maybe i was being slightly pedantic, of course you have a valid point. If you didnt we wouldnt have competitive motor racing (excl. F1 lol) would we?

I can fully accept that a capable driver in a car up on weight, down on power & torque could "beat" a less capable driver in a lighter, more powerful car.

Both are rapid cars but all this is "my dads harder than your dad" crap. This trackday lark would be interesting to see

Ive seen/heard modded/standard clio sports, but none of them compare to the modded ZR160 that booted past my open window once, fook me sounded like BTCC spec, yet looked standard

 

[Mitchy]

Jesus, he has never claimed outright acceleration so whats the point in a 1/4 mile test?

Clio cup runs 14.8 and ZR160 runs a 15.5, theres no denying that.

This is more dedicated to handling performance rather than outright acceleration. Everyone on here thinks a clio is a monster on a track. It can be beaten and heres proof of a less powerful car doing so.

 

[Rally Matt]

Do you ever get the feeling that life is just going round in circles?

Bit like racing really, must why I became a rally driver, to break free!!!!

In the idea of 1/4 mile tests I would certainly expect the Clio to win every time, would be interesting to see how close a ZR could get though.

 

[Turkish]

Quote: Originally posted by Mitchy on 21 October 2004


It can be beaten and heres proof of a less powerful car doing so.





dont recall seeing proof since when has someones opinion constituted proof. a quantative result from a test involving no other variables than the car (i.e. same driver, same track, same weather conditions, etc etc) is what i would call proof. im not saying the 172/182 is an unbeatable track car, its a car that is fast and competant in its own right and against other cars in its class and some classes above it has been known to hold its own too.

 

[telford_mike]

Why not just book Curborough, rent some timing gear, and try it out?

 

[blink172]

^^Amen

 

[Lagerlout]

Quote: Originally posted by Mitchy on 21 October 2004


Jesus, he has never claimed outright acceleration so whats the point in a 1/4 mile test?

Clio cup runs 14.8 and ZR160 runs a 15.5, theres no denying that.

This is more dedicated to handling performance rather than outright acceleration. Everyone on here thinks a clio is a monster on a track. It can be beaten and heres proof of a less powerful car doing so.





Wheres the proof? Havent read all of the posts, but surely Matt is just saying that, in his opinion, the MG is a better handling car. Does that automatically mean its faster? Debateable.

For what its worth, I found the Ford Focus ST170 to be a fantastic car to drive and preferred the way it handled to my Clio.(although, even when Im giving it some, Im probably only going at a bout 6 tenths of what the car are capable of!!) But would it be faster round a track?? Dont think so.

 

[Turkish]

dont get me started on st170s lol

 

[Lagerlout]

Quote: Originally posted by telford_mike on 21 October 2004

Why not just book Curborough, rent some timing gear, and try it out?

If we could get some timing gear, that would be great. Trouble is, with Curbrough being so short, there wouldnt be much difference between any car, never mind two which are pretty evenly matched on paper anyway imho....

For the record, my money would be on Freds 1.2....

 

[Rally Matt]

Ene 1/4 mile test etc have a certain driver input though,

A few years back me and my team mate Miles were working at Silverstone on the Trax day, running the 0-60 test. We had a Ford Cougar (Ex prototype from Ford) as run arounds at the circuit, about 6 of us instructors from race, rally etc all had a blast doing the 0-60, just for test purposes of course! The ability of differnet drivers to get away from a standing start was surprising, nearly a second across all 6. BTW the Cougar is a vile piece of junk, handles like a Scammell, brakes made of wood, and totally gutless!

Just for fun I ran a Fiat Cinquecento Sporting through at 13.6 sec, not bad for 55 bhp! IIRC fastest car on day was a Cossie sub 4 seconds!

 

[Lagerlout]

Quote: Originally posted by Loony on 21 October 2004

dont get me started on st170s lol

lol... not sure exactly what the 170 refers to... cant be horse power thats for sure...

 

[blink172]

IIRC fastest car on day was a Cossie sub 4 seconds!

Did it have an anti gravity drive to do 1/4mile in 4secs or was it a topfueler?

 

[telford_mike]

Quote: Originally posted by lagerlout1 on 21 October 2004

Quote: Originally posted by telford_mike on 21 October 2004

Why not just book Curborough, rent some timing gear, and try it out?

If we could get some timing gear, that would be great. Trouble is, with Curbrough being so short, there wouldnt be much difference between any car, never mind two which are pretty evenly matched on paper anyway imho....

For the record, my money would be on Freds 1.2....

Shenstone Car Club have timing gear which can be rented along with the circuit. I thought the whole debate was about short circuits like Curborough where power was less of an issue?

 

[blink172]

I thought it was all about handling too....

 

[Rally Matt]

Quote: Originally posted by lagerlout1 on 21 October 2004

Quote: Originally posted by Loony on 21 October 2004

dont get me started on st170s lol

lol... not sure exactly what the 170 refers to... cant be horse power thats for sure...

How old you have to be to get insured!

 

[Turkish]

Quote: Originally posted by lagerlout1 on 21 October 2004

Quote: Originally posted by Loony on 21 October 2004

dont get me started on st170s lol

lol... not sure exactly what the 170 refers to... cant be horse power thats for sure...



they are 170LTP (lame tortoise power)

 

[blink172]

Nah, i think its the time it takes to hit 60

 

[Rally Matt]

Quote: Originally posted by blink172 on 21 October 2004

IIRC fastest car on day was a Cossie sub 4 seconds!

Did it have an anti gravity drive to do 1/4mile in 4secs or was it a topfueler?

God knows what it had, was like a bl;oody rocket! Mind you there were loads of Sunny GtiRs that were close, and a twin engined R5 turbo. There were also quite a few bangs as well as too much boost took its toll hehehehe

 

[Mitchy]

Are you on about 1/4 or 60mph?

It would have to be a dragster to get that sorta time for a 1/4

 

[Rally Matt]

Quote: Originally posted by blink172 on 21 October 2004


I thought it was all about handling too....

It was all about handling really. The "proof" is ancedotal as we never recorded anything or whatever. We used standard cars all driving both and proper stopwatches etc but it wasnt a strictly controlled test, just 6 race and rally drivers with too much time, an opportunity and a curiosity! I am sure the result would be different again if it was a circuit like Silverstone or Coombe.

 

[Rally Matt]

Quote: Originally posted by Rally Matt on 21 October 2004


Ene 1/4 mile test etc have a certain driver input though,

A few years back me and my team mate Miles were working at Silverstone on the Trax day, running the 0-60 test. We had a Ford Cougar (Ex prototype from Ford) as run arounds at the circuit, about 6 of us instructors from race, rally etc all had a blast doing the 0-60, just for test purposes of course! The ability of differnet drivers to get away from a standing start was surprising, nearly a second across all 6. BTW the Cougar is a vile piece of junk, handles like a Scammell, brakes made of wood, and totally gutless!

Just for fun I ran a Fiat Cinquecento Sporting through at 13.6 sec, not bad for 55 bhp! IIRC fastest car on day was a Cossie sub 4 seconds!

0-60 at Trax 2000 Silverstone down National Straight (Wrong way!)

 

[blink172]

You know what would be a laugh. If we are (We= Club/s) going to get a head to head together, it might be worth getting a std vs std and modded vs modded to see how all 4 finish up.

 

[Rally Matt]

Good idea,

Would be interesting to see if all the claims tuning companies make are as good as they claim. I have seen many suspect claims made about shiney bits that cost people fortunes! I have seen plenty that have actually made their cars slower!

These are the kind of tests the mags should be doing! They are too dependant on their advertising revenues though so wont !

 

[y0z2a]

this is so true.

My y0z2aSport conversion kills LADs for fun, and they are supposed to be a full tune up for the Cups...

And that is before I have played with the engine block at all. That is will good induction and an exhaust and removal of un-necessary weight. And an Rsport ECU. No £1500 replacement head etc...

/y0z

 

[Rally Matt]

Hmmm LAD, a mate of mine had LAD build a Pug for the 106 Cup (1300 Rallye not super cup 1.6) what a total bag of wan4 it was! cost a fortune too.

 

[blink172]

^^not heard that before from LAD. LMAO

 

[Mad_Marky]

Quote: Originally posted by blink172 on 21 October 2004


You know what would be a laugh. If we are (We= Club/s) going to get a head to head together, it might be worth getting a std vs std and modded vs modded to see how all 4 finish up.

If this was done im sure one of the car mags might cover it, they are always doing stuff like this.

 

[_Tom]

Im not gunna get into this but ive raced a 160 in my valver and stayed with! I have a few mods but not many im sure a 182 could beat me!

 

[Lagerlout]

Quote: Originally posted by y0z2a on 21 October 2004

this is so true.

My y0z2aSport conversion kills LADs for fun, and they are supposed to be a full tune up for the Cups...

And that is before I have played with the engine block at all. That is will good induction and an exhaust and removal of un-necessary weight. And an Rsport ECU. No £1500 replacement head etc...

/y0z

No magic fairy dust.... Ive seen Yozs car and it is QUICK!! Would be interesting to pit it against a 190bhp MG..... all though my moneys still on the 1.2 Cup....

 

[Rally Matt]

This 1.2 sounds very intersting! ;-)) I love small engines with stupid power ouputs. I ran a 1300 Fiat Ritmo in 1300 British Rally Championship with 138 BHP, for rally tune that was a lot!

All comes down to what you do with what you have. We did some promo stuff for Pirelli on this years Pirelli rally, launching the Richard Burns Rally game to the press. We were taking journos round a small test gravel stage near Slayley Hall. First they would ride with us in the ZRs then a blast in Mitsubishi Evo 5, one was without a turbo restrictor and putting out nearly 400 BHP. Although there was mainly fast straights (110mph) and no really challenging corners we were consistantly running 5.5 sec/mile quicker! And they were trying too!

 

[lou_m]

I think a std v std test would be great. My friends an instructor at Mallory and Prestwold and he was doing fast passenger laps driving a Seat Leon Cupra R. He was catching an other instructor who was driving a Ferrari Maranello.

The difference a driver makes can be massive.

Lewis

(thats my pennys worth)

 

[blink172]

Ill offer up a std 172 (only mod is an ITG filter which isnt hard to swap back). Yozza can bring his 1.2 and maybe ask roamer to bring his 212 along. You can rustle up a couple of MGs and fill the rest with club members to get the costs down.

Wonder if Mike will come and show us all up in his charged V6

 

[Rally Matt]

Just to change the subject, King Stromba is talking some massive s4ite on the xpower forum about Phil Bennet being a gimp! I can see why you lot banned him!