Icemans Britcar Endurance project 182

[Nafoff]

good work mark.... coming together nicely...
would be good toget them all together once sorted at a trackday or something....

maybe 2012 - 2013....lol

 

[IcemanUK]

Re-posted with formatting

Hi Thanks for taking the time to write such comprehensive comments. Ok firstly:


1. The fire system was fitted exactly according to the instructions that came with it and as it is an FIA approved system I assumed the instructions also meet that FIA approval. This is my first race car build of any kind and I and Chrispy have noticed that most of the comments I recieve are generally negative and more importantly are given after the fact! It would be MUCH more helpfull if this information was mentioned before I do something as opposed to the generally English trait of slagging off what others are trying to achieve! But to answer your questions:


2. The nozzle in the passenger bay is to cover all the electrics which will be there on a false floor. Had you taken the time to read the whole thread you would have seen this.


3. The nozzles can easily be altered into any desired position, hardly the end of the world!


4. The removal of the PAS is because I am going to spend no small amount of time racing this car in Track day trophy and tin tops. When I get my A license I shall then look at putting together an endurance team but that is a ways off yet and again it is a very small job to refit the PAS. Again this has been mentioned numerous times now.


5. I have spoken to scruts several times and also emailed the one from Britcar who has been most helpfull and friendly. Those grommets are fireproof. Again if I get asked to change them for some sort of through bulkhead fitting I will and again it will be a simple job. What I have learnt from starting this project is that LOTS of people talk a load of s**t! As such I just ring the scrut and also the series organiser and then compare that with FIA and MSA regs.

When I was looking for a roll cage I was told by LOTS of people I would not need any paperwork as it only has to be fitted according to FIA specs. Total Bollox. I rang the organisers of the Dubai 24 hour and was told that without the paperwork I would not be allowed to race, that would have been a costly error eh! Custom cages gave me a folder with paperwork and drawings in it that is 6 pages long. So I have learned to pretty much not listen anymore to all the so called knowledgable ones. As such I will make my own mistakes and learn

I hope that answers your concerns.

Mark..

PS I watched touring car at the weekend and the guy had a fire in the car and did'nt even bother to actuate his fire system LOL.

 

[poobah]

Loving this build thread I have to say. Such great attention to detail! A credit to you sir.

I could never build such a great car and then race it as I'd be too scared of stacking it! When I had my Hill Climb tuition the other week, my instructor (who was Harewood Hill record holder) said that he'd always built his own cars but that he didn't win a race until he got his head around the theory that you've got to be fully willing/able to afford to destroy the car in the attempt to win. Not a mindset I could adopt given all the blood sweat and tears put in to cars like this!

Best of luck and cheers for sharing the build.

 

[PYE21]

Re-posted with formatting

Hi Thanks for taking the time to write such comprehensive comments. Ok firstly:


1. The fire system was fitted exactly according to the instructions that came with it and as it is an FIA approved system I assumed the instructions also meet that FIA approval. This is my first race car build of any kind and I and Chrispy have noticed that most of the comments I recieve are generally negative and more importantly are given after the fact! It would be MUCH more helpfull if this information was mentioned before I do something as opposed to the generally English trait of slagging off what others are trying to achieve! But to answer your questions:


2. The nozzle in the passenger bay is to cover all the electrics which will be there on a false floor. Had you taken the time to read the whole thread you would have seen this.


3. The nozzles can easily be altered into any desired position, hardly the end of the world!


4. The removal of the PAS is because I am going to spend no small amount of time racing this car in Track day trophy and tin tops. When I get my A license I shall then look at putting together an endurance team but that is a ways off yet and again it is a very small job to refit the PAS. Again this has been mentioned numerous times now.


5. I have spoken to scruts several times and also emailed the one from Britcar who has been most helpfull and friendly. Those grommets are fireproof. Again if I get asked to change them for some sort of through bulkhead fitting I will and again it will be a simple job. What I have learnt from starting this project is that LOTS of people talk a load of s**t! As such I just ring the scrut and also the series organiser and then compare that with FIA and MSA regs.

When I was looking for a roll cage I was told by LOTS of people I would not need any paperwork as it only has to be fitted according to FIA specs. Total Bollox. I rang the organisers of the Dubai 24 hour and was told that without the paperwork I would not be allowed to race, that would have been a costly error eh! Custom cages gave me a folder with paperwork and drawings in it that is 6 pages long. So I have learned to pretty much not listen anymore to all the so called knowledgable ones. As such I will make my own mistakes and learn

I hope that answers your concerns.

Mark..

PS I watched touring car at the weekend and the guy had a fire in the car and did'nt even bother to actuate his fire system LOL.

My post wasnt meant to be negative, only informative. Something that has always been lacking on this forum.

Did the instructions tell you to run just 1 nozzle for the driver?

If you have a crystal ball you can provide me so that i can see the issues your likely to encounter, i will happily provide advice before you do something wrong.

I have skimmed the thread, but there is so many pointless comments and posts in it I have skipped a lot of pages. I must have missed the one showing the electrics on the pax floor.

I know they can be moved, but find it odd they have been position where they have, and in the manner they have been.

Removing the system, just to put it back on again later down the line, is the most pointless thing i have ever heard. Why would you go out of your way to add work? What proviso do you have that the system will work first time back on the car? How are you going to know the system doesn't require any tweeks before turning up at your first proper endurance events? Are you going to fit it half way through the season to test it and ensure its working correctly?

If you intend on running it later down the line, run it now. IMO you gain nothing from removing it, but could cause yourself lots of issues from re-introducing it later down the line.

The rubber grommets you are using are not fireproof, they are flame resistant. The rubber used in them is Nitrile, this has a maximum heat resistance of around 108*c, not exactly a lot where fire is involved. They will give you milliseconds of time to escape a fire, before it is allowed to reach your plastic fuel tank.

If you have an issue with the free advice i have given then please let me know. I have only provided advice about things that will potentially save your life (you seem to think its more inportant to protect your gearbox from fire) and you taken an attitude against it. I provide advice from experiance where i can, and have done so for a long time, i wont post anything further in here, as you obviously arent happy with this free service. I would be using the proper bulkhead fittings to run my fuel lines, a few pounds saved on safety isnt money saved.

Oh and for clarification, i built the car that won the first Trackday Trophy race last year, and came second in the next race.

 

[IcemanUK]

My post wasnt meant to be negative, only informative. Something that has always been lacking on this forum.

Did the instructions tell you to run just 1 nozzle for the driver?

If you have a crystal ball you can provide me so that i can see the issues your likely to encounter, i will happily provide advice before you do something wrong.

I have skimmed the thread, but there is so many pointless comments and posts in it I have skipped a lot of pages. I must have missed the one showing the electrics on the pax floor.

I know they can be moved, but find it odd they have been position where they have, and in the manner they have been.

Removing the system, just to put it back on again later down the line, is the most pointless thing i have ever heard. Why would you go out of your way to add work? What proviso do you have that the system will work first time back on the car? How are you going to know the system doesn't require any tweeks before turning up at your first proper endurance events? Are you going to fit it half way through the season to test it and ensure its working correctly?

If you intend on running it later down the line, run it now. IMO you gain nothing from removing it, but could cause yourself lots of issues from re-introducing it later down the line.

The rubber grommets you are using are not fireproof, they are flame resistant. The rubber used in them is Nitrile, this has a maximum heat resistance of around 108*c, not exactly a lot where fire is involved. They will give you milliseconds of time to escape a fire, before it is allowed to reach your plastic fuel tank.

If you have an issue with the free advice i have given then please let me know. I have only provided advice about things that will potentially save your life (you seem to think its more inportant to protect your gearbox from fire) and you taken an attitude against it. I provide advice from experiance where i can, and have done so for a long time, i wont post anything further in here, as you obviously arent happy with this free service. I would be using the proper bulkhead fittings to run my fuel lines, a few pounds saved on safety isnt money saved.

Oh and for clarification, i built the car that won the first Trackday Trophy race last year, and came second in the next race.

No worries I was a bear with a sore head this morning as I was up at 4 for the red eye flight to Bern and then had a two hour train journey from Geneva, tired and grumpy is the word after 7 hours of early morning commute. I guess when you have put 100's of hours into soemthing it makes you a little defensive about it.

In answer to your questions:

1. Yes the instructions only showed one for the driver and one for the passenger footwell but I have loads of pipe and these can easily be altered.

2. I positioned them like that only because that's how it showed in the diagram of the instructions but agin thye can be altered to point anywhere I want

3. Yes anything that goes on the car will be tested before racing. I also fancy an electric PAS so the fluid system would have come off anyways. As for ABS I will not need that for the whole of next year and again it can be refitted if the car is enduranced. Endurance was/is my main goal but I am not prepared to fund it all myself as I need to spend another 18k on the car to take it to that level (already spent well over 20k on this phase of build) and then I budgeted at least 22k for the race. I don't mind spending this money on the car but would want "suitably funded" drivers to share the race costs of about 5k each

4. Good point on the grommets and I will look for a fitted solution although two seperate scruts have told me that they are happy with the solution I have used. For endurance I would have a full ATL tank setup in the boot.

If you have an issue with the free advice i have given then please let me know. I have only provided advice about things that will potentially save your life (you seem to think its more inportant to protect your gearbox from fire) and you taken an attitude against it. I provide advice from experiance where i can, and have done so for a long time, i wont post anything further in here, as you obviously arent happy with this free service. I would be using the proper bulkhead fittings to run my fuel lines, a few pounds saved on safety isnt money saved.

5. Now now don't be touchy, your post read very negativley and not only to me and I was very tired when I read it. It is your first post in this thread after 8 months of build and it was all negative, even if you meant it positivley it was written negativley and thats the way it came across. There are ways in which you can give someone written or indeed verbal advice without coming across as a smarty pants you're such a Fail approach. I am open to any advice and have changed many things on this build after it has been given.

Oh and for clarification, i built the car that won the first Trackday Trophy race last year, and came second in the next race

Good for you but you won't beat mine

 

[Fred@BTM]

no one activates their fire system when they have a fire unless they REALLY have to, its impossible to clean off!

 

[IcemanUK]

Loving this build thread I have to say. Such great attention to detail! A credit to you sir.

I could never build such a great car and then race it as I'd be too scared of stacking it! When I had my Hill Climb tuition the other week, my instructor (who was Harewood Hill record holder) said that he'd always built his own cars but that he didn't win a race until he got his head around the theory that you've got to be fully willing/able to afford to destroy the car in the attempt to win. Not a mindset I could adopt given all the blood sweat and tears put in to cars like this!

Best of luck and cheers for sharing the build.

This thought did cross my mind but then I did spend 20 grand to get our robot onto robot wars so im not overly bothered about crashing the car to be honest, I will just repair it and carry on LOL

Here's our final battle for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPcqC6k5qTk

Our spinner test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z7EapPpKtc



Mark

 

[IcemanUK]

no one activates their fire system when they have a fire unless they REALLY have to, its impossible to clean off!

You know that thought did cross my mind Fred LOL

 

[Fred@BTM]

seriously! thats the main reason why LOL! one of our lambos had a bit of a moment (1min10 onwards)

took me fooking weeks to fix that! Itchy as f**k that powder!

 

[Timmyevo6]

no one activates their fire system when they have a fire unless they REALLY have to, its impossible to clean off!

i remember a certain clio cup driver who invited a young lass to the wkend to show her his race driver life style. needless to say, after 2nd practice the young lass leant in the car to congratulate his talent and pressed the fired system.

the reason macdowel didn't press the fire system was because he was within the pit when it sparked on fire, his attention was not on worrying about the fire but not being injured by ray dragging him out.

if you have a fire within the car and choose not to use the fire system, then you're a braver man than me, race cars go from zero to fireball in seconds, pressing that button automatically can quite possibly save your life! let alone hopefully save your car.

regarding the registration of the car, i was under the impression that within brit car and championships of higher stature, the vehicles need a logbook, this is given by either the event organsiers who will charge a fee (sometimes the inspection is within the entry fee of the championship) for an inspection of a vehicle built to the spec of their championship, this is certainly the case with the V.W cup. it can also be given by a company with the credentials to build such cars such as 888 or thorney motorsport. so, whereby people have stated you don't need papers for the roll cage, that is basically correct, because to get the logbook, the whole car is inspected.

have to say, this build is incredibly good and of high quality.

i would advise getting someone like martin byford as a driver coach and development aid to the progress of the build once you move from build to development through use.

 

[IcemanUK]

i remember a certain clio cup driver who invited a young lass to the wkend to show her his race driver life style. needless to say, after 2nd practice the young lass leant in the car to congratulate his talent and pressed the fired system.

the reason macdowel didn't press the fire system was because he was within the pit when it sparked on fire, his attention was not on worrying about the fire but not being injured by ray dragging him out.

if you have a fire within the car and choose not to use the fire system, then you're a braver man than me, race cars go from zero to fireball in seconds, pressing that button automatically can quite possibly save your life! let alone hopefully save your car.

regarding the registration of the car, i was under the impression that within brit car and championships of higher stature, the vehicles need a logbook, this is given by either the event organsiers who will charge a fee (sometimes the inspection is within the entry fee of the championship) for an inspection of a vehicle built to the spec of their championship, this is certainly the case with the V.W cup. it can also be given by a company with the credentials to build such cars such as 888 or thorney motorsport. so, whereby people have stated you don't need papers for the roll cage, that is basically correct, because to get the logbook, the whole car is inspected.

have to say, this build is incredibly good and of high quality.

Thanks, sometimes I need to hear that to keep motivated.

i would advise getting someone like martin byford as a driver coach and development aid to the progress of the build once you move from build to development through use.

I didn't know that and will look into it. The largest mistake I have made so far was sending the car for the roll cage and paint way too early next time I will fit all the brackets, Pclips, grommets etc and do all the interior drilling before getting it painted doh

That fire in BTCC seemed to come through his bulkhead very fast? How does that happen? I mean I can see that it could come through those grommets of mine but then it would be localised in that NS corner yes? Or would it come up through the steering column grommet too? This is why the scrut said my grommets are fine because he pointed out that I have a massive rubber grommet between my feet that routinely gets given the ok! He said my little grommets on the fuel line are of no concern.

I think my fire system is liquid foam which I can imagine would make a mess and be quite sticky.

Yes driver coaching is on my list.

best
Mark

have to say, this build is incredibly good and of high quality.

Thanks, sometimes I need to hear that to keep motivated.

 

[IcemanUK]

Is this good value for money??


http://www.racedatasystems.co.uk/ra...l1-data-logger-dash2-video4-2-camera-kit.html



Mark.

 

[Timmyevo6]

i reckon the btcc issue with partly fumes and high pressure fuel going from vapours back to liquid and igniting from within the engine bay and spreading into the cockpit.

http://www.eurosaloons.co.uk/Reports/2011/images/20110611_DaveCockell.jpg

this happened within seconds of dave stopping the car at paddock hill!

seriously consider upgrading to a gas based extinguisher, they're not used in F1 for no reason. and certainly at least have a hand held gas extinguisher mounted within easy grasp for you while strapped into your seat.

fuel line pressure is very high as we all know, (circa 4 bar on that cossie and my evo) and more so on some. the fuel will get anywhere it can, the grommets are not fuel proof, they're designed to keep out fumes more than anything, i know my clio racer has grommets you can see daylight though and they always pass the scruits.

i do not think you'll have any issues with your build, compared to some of the entrys i've seen in britcar, you're head and shoulders above them.


i thing i learnt the hard way was fitting switchs within the cockpit while NOT wearing my helmet and being strapped in. when i fitted them, i was simply sat in the seat and my brother moved them to where i thought would be ideal. however, once suited and strapped......i couldn't see them!!

 

[Timmyevo6]

depends what you want it to do for you??

i have to think that you have a very good budget? if you can afford to upgrade it before going endurance to something like a motec, then go for it. if purchasing it and then upgrading it isn't within the budget. don't buy it, get the car going with something capable and then get something like a motec or of decent pedigree within racing endurance championships.

always spend where needed, clearly the MOST amount of money will be spent on yourself, you'll spend thousands on tires, fuel, trackdays, tuition and thats before you go actual racing.

Is this good value for money??


http://www.racedatasystems.co.uk/ra...l1-data-logger-dash2-video4-2-camera-kit.html



Mark.

 

[Fred@BTM]

speak to TDF mate, they do all the Dash2 stuff

 

[IcemanUK]

i reckon the btcc issue with partly fumes and high pressure fuel going from vapours back to liquid and igniting from within the engine bay and spreading into the cockpit.

http://www.eurosaloons.co.uk/Reports/2011/images/20110611_DaveCockell.jpg

this happened within seconds of dave stopping the car at paddock hill!

seriously consider upgrading to a gas based extinguisher, they're not used in F1 for no reason. and certainly at least have a hand held gas extinguisher mounted within easy grasp for you while strapped into your seat.

fuel line pressure is very high as we all know, (circa 4 bar on that cossie and my evo) and more so on some. the fuel will get anywhere it can, the grommets are not fuel proof, they're designed to keep out fumes more than anything, i know my clio racer has grommets you can see daylight though and they always pass the scruits.

i do not think you'll have any issues with your build, compared to some of the entrys i've seen in britcar, you're head and shoulders above them.


i thing i learnt the hard way was fitting switchs within the cockpit while NOT wearing my helmet and being strapped in. when i fitted them, i was simply sat in the seat and my brother moved them to where i thought would be ideal. however, once suited and strapped......i couldn't see them!!

That is a very good point thanks.

I will look at gas systems, I guess it could just connect to the piping I have in place yes? You mean this for gas yes?

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motor...ectrical_1.5_Kg_Extinguisher_Kit/1752/0/14952


Mark..

 

[Timmyevo6]

yep, that zero stuff is the kiddie!

however, remember the bottom line, budget. if you can afford it, then get it. likewise a decent control and dash system, why are motecs thousands when that 'dash logger' is 500quid.....coz it better.....MUCH better.

 

[Tony Hunter]

i thing i learnt the hard way was fitting switchs within the cockpit while NOT wearing my helmet and being strapped in. when i fitted them, i was simply sat in the seat and my brother moved them to where i thought would be ideal. however, once suited and strapped......i couldn't see them!!

We always made sure of this,as I remembered from the rally car that you can only see half the car all suited up.

 

[olliewebbuk]

Iceman, this may interest you: http://www.sifo.jp/sifo/2010/10/clio-def-final-proto.html

 

[Jonny1*2]

how on earth did you find that page :S Random stuff on there. Presumably it's chinese, but loads of renault stuff on there. Don't think you tend to find renaults out in the far east. Bonnet looks gash though I presume i'm looking at a splitter/undertray?

 

[bomber]

Japanese you boob, not Chinese

 

[GodSpeed]

Its for a Clio 200...

 

[olliewebbuk]

Its for a Clio 200...

Ah never mind then. I can't understand Japanese.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Japanese you boob, not Chinese

Potatoe, potartoe

 

[IcemanUK]

Its for a Clio 200...

Bummer as it looks great and I want one

Bought a Gas 360 fire system now and have been re-plumbing it in after ripping the Sparco out Interesting instructions

A. You MUST have two nossels in the car one pointing at the footwell of the passneger side and one the driver and mounted horizontally so they fire across the car from the centre

B. You MUST have 4 nossels in the engine bay and they MUST be mounted 200mm below the bonnet shut line, so not pointed at the fuel rail at all but diagonally mounted in each corner and ahem pointed at the gearbox, manifold and front and left sides of the engine about half way down the block. Hmm just how I mounted the Sparco system then.

Failure to follow these instructions invalidates the FIA homologation!


Mark.

 

[GodSpeed]

Bummer as it looks great and I wnat one

Send a few pictures to our friend and he will make one for you. Not like he hasnt done it before

http://s430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/team_hink_racing/Carbon delar/Seat Leon Supercopa/

 

[IcemanUK]

Send a few pictures to our friend and he will make one for you. Not like he hasnt done it before

http://s430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/team_hink_racing/Carbon delar/Seat Leon Supercopa/

That my boy is a damned fine idea

 

[GodSpeed]

That my boy is a damned fine idea

You know you want it

Will come at a much better price to, the fancy 200 diffusor the japanese company makes had a price set... A rather big price tag so to speak. Equals to £2800.... Now that kind of £ will buy you CF hood, boot, doors and still leave you with a 1000 in change to spend on a custom splitter or what ever you like.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Bummer as it looks great and I want one

Bought a Gas 360 fire system now and have been re-plumbing it in after ripping the Sparco out Interesting instructions

A. You MUST have two nossels in the car one pointing at the footwell of the passneger side and one the driver and mounted horizontally so they fire across the car from the centre

B. You MUST have 4 nossels in the engine bay and they MUST be mounted 200mm below the bonnet shut line, so not pointed at the fuel rail at all but diagonally mounted in each corner and ahem pointed at the gearbox, manifold and front and left sides of the engine about half way down the block. Hmm just how I mounted the Sparco system then.

Failure to follow these instructions invalidates the FIA homologation!


Mark.

Mark,rules and regulations are a complete nightmare.

 

[BIGASH]

Send a few pictures to our friend and he will make one for you. Not like he hasnt done it before

http://s430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/team_hink_racing/Carbon delar/Seat Leon Supercopa/

That my boy is a damned fine idea

Hi Have you contacted this guy about getting a splitter similar to the cupra one? I would also be very interested in getting one and i'm sure if two of us wanted one then the costs could be reduced!! Thanks

 

[IcemanUK]

Another quick update a long time coming


So first up I have changed the fire system Bought a Lifeline gas system and plumbed that in instead. It IS fitted exactly according to the instructions and more importantly as the instruction book stated quite clearly if you don't do this the FIA homologation is null, so before some clever dick tells me he does'nt like it I should point out that I actually don't care

The fitted nozzles in the engine bay at just about 200mm below the shut line of the bonnet and in the four corners as specified.

Next we fitted the new kenlowe fan system with adjustable thermostat

And the control unit

I bought a nice momo for the gear knob

The washer bottle has been relocated to the left side and plumbed in there.

We have also fitted the rear Oreca door cards

Made a nice carbon cover for the fuel tank

This is the harness fitted. All those worries about angles and it not reaching turned to nought

The cutoff switch and exterior fire system switch have also been fitted

This is a view of our custom made switch panel and dash binnacle. My mate who is a product desinger made these in fibre board and they are now being knocked up in black GRP for final fitting. Reach is perfect.

Some messy wiring

I fitted the ROCK HARD FIA foam. It would hurt a lot if you banged your elbow against it but better than metal I guess.

So the CAR is FINISHED


Well nearly. Today it was picked up and is now in the safe hands of Northanpton motorsport who are making the engine loom, mapping the car and then setting up the suspension and corner weights. When it comes back we will fit the switch panel and then its fun time. Oh yes I bought the DL1 and race tech dash because for britcar you have to run a DL1 so thought I would just get those to start off with. They are being fitted by NM too here are some outside shots beofre the car went.

Hope you enjoyed

 

[GodSpeed]

Did enjoy but half of alla pictures dont work?!

 

[Fletcher]

Did enjoy but half of alla pictures dont work?!

Looks great. Shame most of the pics are missing.

 

[IcemanUK]

Pics are all there they were uploading.

 

[Jay Payne]

Good progress mate.

Now this is advice from experiance, not being a 'clever dick' You may find your fan falls off with those fixings coz ours did. Its bolted on now

 

[IcemanUK]

Good progress mate.

Now this is advice from experiance, not being a 'clever dick' You may find your fan falls off with those fixings coz ours did. Its bolted on now

I know that Jay Actually if you meet me you will find I am not a know it all or averse to taking all the advice I can get its just that some people seem to like to be very negative when they give it which I dont like and won't stand for either.

Chrispy and I both looked at those silly little plastic fixings and went Mmmmm. So I shall bolt it on then or get Mik to make a custom ally fixing. I will think on that. Thanks.

 

[IcemanUK]

I forgot to mention that my rear dampers are fucked. Both wont now adjust and are VERY bouncy. Before it went to Custom cages they would. I assume that the rear welding was done with them in situ and the heat transfer has fucked them. Only thing I can think off. They have to go to KW to be repaired now. Not happy about that!!

 

[poobah]

Brilliant stuff. I've thoroughly enjoyed following this build so make sure you keep it updated with progress from testing racing.

Great stuff.

 

[Stu-]

Read the whole thread. Awesome build, and good luck with the racing.

 

[shiftspark]

Looks brilliant well worth all the hassle !!

When do you think you will be out in it ?