If you own a modern Clio, it's likely you are a crap driver. Discussion.

[Munson]

The best white noise I've ever read. I knew from the first line that the OP owned some hypercar old-school hot hatch, and was a rally driver. What a load of b****cks. Either a failed copper or an ex-security guard who did a track day in 1967.

 

[dandycaptain]

i love my ABS,

lets me know when i'm braking too hard.

dont real men just use their laser eyes to penetrate the snow?

On ice (or gravel), ABS is extremely counter-productive, there's no disputing that. So rather than letting you know that you're braking too hard, it's actually preventing you from braking enough.

 

[Wobba]

Sorry but i disagree.

Why in particular are drivers who opt for cars with technology that supports you in the event of a potential accident, when you may have milliseconds to react likely to "finally cause an accident"? The technology is there to prevent it not cause it.

You are also missing the fact that its not always your fault in an accident, if some lorry pulls out on me, the last thing i am going to do is piss about thinking of braking and driving "technique", i am just going to hit the anchors and steer away like anyone normal person would.

Am i still a crap driver by the way? Even though i have 12 years no claims and zero points, but my car has ABS and ESP?

Hmm, I think we have our wires crossed. Let me start again.

My point here is that modern driver aids are not necessarily helping the ever growing number of drivers actually be good drivers, and in fact are giving drivers a false sense of security and ability.

How many people do you personally see tailgating everyday in bad road conditions? These people are often misled into thinking they are invulnerable, and so when something goes wrong, e.g. they lose tracking or go into a slide on black ice, they don't understand what's going on under the wheels enough to get out of it. But let's face it, they shouldn't have been tailgating in the first place.

As for other drivers, yes totally agree, these are things out of your control, you're either able to save yourself or the car or you are not. I wasn't 'missing' this point, but rather not covering it here. The variables are too many to count as there are too many different scenarios, driver aids or not. Poor drivers are the main reason why I drive very carefully everywhere I go now, and sure, bigger crumple zones or whatever would be nice on the Williams but my thread is not about things like that but electronic gizmo's in new cars.

As for being a crap driver, I don't know mate. I am not here to judge individuals and nor would I have any right too.

 

[Marky_]

An interesting topic for discussion and one that parallels the debate for/against driver aids in motorsport.

In the conditions we've seen recently, i don't think they make the blindest bit of difference. Apart from confusing most people about whether they should leave the aids on or off.

In general terms, imo the most common driver aids equipped at the moment (ABS, TC etc) do not affect the standard of peoples driving. However some of the newer technology most certainly does. I'm talking about the auto parking, lane sensing and braking systems. If/when these become common peoples ability and awareness will almost certainly be compromised over time.

 

[_williams_]

My point here is that modern driver aids are not necessarily helping the ever growing number of drivers actually be good drivers, and in fact are giving drivers a false sense of security and ability.

i dont know about anyone else but unless you stop every car you see tailgaiting and ask them why then you have no idea what their reasons are! in my opinion a c**k's a c**k, put him in an a reg cortina or a 58 plate luxury saloon and his driving style will be the same! i personally am extermely cautious in adverse conditions, and i have ABS and TC, doesnt make me feel invinsible

 

[realnumber 1]

On ice (or gravel), ABS is extremely counter-productive, there's no disputing that. So rather than letting you know that you're braking too hard, it's actually preventing you from braking enough.

Are you sure about that?

Does ABS work on ice? Yes. The system's computer monitors the speed of each of the vehicle's wheels, compares them and adjusts brake pressure to each wheel to ensure the car stops in the shortest distance possible for most road surfaces.

http://www.abs-education.org/faqs/faqindex.htm

 

[alanc1000]

^^ my first car in 1996 was a Fiat Uno turbo, no airbag, ABS, ESP, i friggin hated it because if i even hit a flowerpot i'd die.

You "controversial" comment to gain a reaction was that newer car drivers are probably crap, and you are now saying you are a safe driver, yet in your previous posts you talk about turbo boost in snow, and gaining "experience" from past mistakes. I've not had any of these mistakes yet though. You must be a crapper driver than me?

I've just been out about an hour ago and it was sheet ice on the backroads, 99% of the modern cars with all these aids were not driving at normal speeds, relaint on the safety aids, they adjusted their driving accordingly.

It just sounds like you are being very patronising as if you have something to teach everyone, but i dont think you do though.

 

[Shorty_Irl]

On ice (or gravel), ABS is extremely counter-productive, there's no disputing that. So rather than letting you know that you're braking too hard, it's actually preventing you from braking enough.

Disagree with you on that point completely. On a wet or dry racing track, then YES ABS can be counter productive as it can kick in far too soon and actually slow your lap times. But, in snow and ice and on gravel I would much rather have ABS than not. You cannot steer a car with locked front brakes, where as you CAN steer a car while the ABS is firing.

 

[Shorty_Irl]

i have ABS and TC, doesnt make me feel invinsible

I think this is a key point. IMO, manufacturers dont fit these things to cars to make the drivers and the vehicles invincible. They fit them to help reduce the severity of potential collisions and in some cases prevent a collision from occurring in the first place. They arent designed to replace the driver, they are designed to help make our roads a little bit safer. But, at the end of the day, no amount of tecnhology will save you if you go round the place driving like a complete tw*t.

 

[Wobba]

^^ my first car in 1996 was a Fiat Uno turbo, no airbag, ABS, ESP, i friggin hated it because if i even hit a flowerpot i'd die.

You "controversial" comment to gain a reaction was that newer car drivers are probably crap, and you are now saying you are a safe driver, yet in your previous posts you talk about turbo boost in snow, and gaining "experience" from past mistakes. I've not had any of these mistakes yet though. You must be a crapper driver than me?

I've just been out about an hour ago and it was sheet ice on the backroads, 99% of the modern cars with all these aids were not driving at normal speeds, relaint on the safety aids, they adjusted their driving accordingly.

It just sounds like you are being very patronising as if you have something to teach everyone, but i dont think you do though.

I almost bought an Abarth Uno Turbo once. Decided against it as I thought the R5 was a better offer at the time. Uno was fun though.

I have not said you were a crap driver. I've not made any objective criticism about you personally, merely a hypothetical subjective question about your own reflection of yourself as a driver. Therefore your question of 'You must be a crapper driver than me?' is out of place. I also have not mentioned 'mistakes', merely a set of learning curves from my own past as a driver to drive (excuse the pun) the discussion.

Of course other drivers were adjusting their speed accordingly. So they should, it's dangerous out.

As for being patronising, I think you need to take this a little less personally and be more subjective on the OP. I am not trying to insult you.

 

[MarkCup]

I agree totally with the OP.

I've long said ABS and traction control breed poorer drivers.

Stick a 9 inch spike out from the centre of everyone's steering wheel. The illusion of safety would be gone, and everyone would drive like saints.

People I know who have such aids tend to lean on, not depend on them. Throttle control and smooth braking is an alien concept to them. No need, let the ECU sort it all out.

Wrong IMO.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

This is why real drivers own 172 Cups ... (or 106 1.1s)

PLUS 1 ha ha ha no +1 b****cks with this comment ex 1.1 106 owner there a good car to drive aswell i hate power steering

 

[rory182]

I love the rawness of my gti's but in something with the ease of pace of a 172 / 182 I'd rather have the drivers aids there for backup when I run out of skill. Found them to be very unobtrusive in my 182 and never slowed me down but I like to drive pretty smoothly and am light on the brakes.

 

[oz_clio]

only read 2/3 of your post and havent read the five pages of replys.I disagree

Whats so different about the newer model clios? they are hardly the pinnacle of vehicle technology, still grassroots driving i think. Mine isnt the most techno advanced car in the world. So i dont think it makes much difference.

Yes i feel safer in it than i did my grans 10yr old mazda i drove for a few weeks after my test but that doesnt mean everyone who owns one is a bad driver. I cant think of any new normal road car nowadays that dont have these basic systems.

and all these aids to the driver arent of much use in the snow or ice, once you catch a patch of ice in the road at speed your just a passenger with little influence.

 

[Ja5on]

I agree totally with the OP.

I've long said ABS and traction control breed poorer drivers.

Stick a 9 inch spike out from the centre of everyone's steering wheel. The illusion of safety would be gone, and everyone would drive like saints.

People I know who have such aids tend to lean on, not depend on them. Throttle control and smooth braking is an alien concept to them. No need, let the ECU sort it all out.

Wrong IMO.

+1

Never had any drivers aid when racing karts etc etc. Which translates to the car, Good few of my mates drive as if they've just come off playing years of Gran tourismo! TC lights and ABS light flickering away like a xmas tree. Wrong

 

[UncleGrumpy]

The best white noise I've ever read. I knew from the first line that the OP owned some hypercar old-school hot hatch, and was a rally driver. What a load of b****cks. Either a failed copper or an ex-security guard who did a track day in 1967.

Lolz, in steps the Munson to tell it like it is, couldn't agree more fella, haven't heard this much shite since the last time I read any of Stromba's bull.

I await a machiavelian response to that one (after he's wiki'd machiavelian)

 

[domjolly]

i agree with you on the traction control/ yaw control/ stability managment but i would definatly have ABS breaking any day of the week!!!! just makes sense its not taking something away from your driving ability its just increasing the chances you will stop quicker...than if you didnt have it and all you would do would smack into something .......look up after your have got out of your wreaked old school car and see a car with ABS and thing s**t wish i had ABS lol

i dont rely on any of them either just think that if i ever get in s**t because i was going a lil to fast its nice to have something thats got my back when i f**k up

 

[Icarus]

ABS and Traction Control are extremely useful. Why do you think we spend £100's of thousands of pounds getting them onto race cars if the regs allow it.

The dynamics of a standard vehicle have changed massively over the past 20 years. What was a fast car in 1989 is merely a warm hatch today and the availability of what are essentialy quick cars has increased massively. 100bhp a litre was the holy grail 20 years ago and the preserve of the DFV and similar DuckTin type creations, 100bhp a litre is available in sodding Japanese shopping trolley now.

Do you need ABS/TCS - no. Does it make you a better driver - no. Is it useful - yes. Simple as that and its stopped a lot of people in cheap high specific output cars sticking them into the hedge or the car in front.

Oh and if you think you can out brake ABS on anything but snow/extremely loose surfaces you can't. I did an ABS install on a race car a couple of years ago - the drivers protested it all the way through. First test session driver comes back in claiming the ABS is useless/dead weight and at no point had he needed it/used it whilst out there - read the data and the ABS system had had 11 seperate activations on the hot lap previous to his in lap.

I'd rather every 'not interested in driving' type had ABS and TCS to keep them out of my boot/nose as 99% of them don't understand driving to the conditions of the road or limitations of the car.

Cheers
M

 

[Wobba]

haven't heard this much s**te since the last time I read any of Stromba's bull.

The same category as Stromba eh? Could take that as a compliment to be honest. To save the admins telling you: Stay on topic please.

Thank you.

 

[Bloooor]

I'm gonna say this to.. I think all Cup Drivers have small penis'

Fact.

 

[Icarus]

I'm gonna say this to.. I think all Cup Drivers have small penis'

Fact.

Bet you couldn't even start an X85 Cup :rasp:

 

[ken.leigh]

i can see where your coming from but i used to drive a 1.2 corsa with no driver aids and tbh i prefered it felt alot safer driving at speed without powerstearing the car felt heavy and you had to make an effort to change lanes or turn corners. power steering makes the car to light at speed for my liking.(although good for parking and low speed this is the only advantage i can see.)

also i have abs now and it seems to be a lil sensitive i drive the same now as i did then and never locked the wheels (well just the once) but now the abs takes over and has all sorts of fits.

i think with young drivers now its more the way there taught to drive, were older drivers where taught to go down the gears at junctions and so on, now there taught to just stop in the gear then change. i think this causes alot more accidents than thought as younger drivers with more modern cars dont pay as much attention to the roads where as the older drivers had to. ie dropping down the gears intead of harshly braking as the realise the lights are red.

have had fun today in the snow found a few empty car parks an tought myself how to handle the snow/ice :rasp:

 

[Wobba]

im not saying i prefer driver aids i dont thats why i drive a cup i just dont like the way you stereotyped all young people as bad drivers

I am not saying young drivers are necessarily bad driver's, just they are often falsely comforted by gizmo's through no fault of their own and often don't know any better.

I hope you noted my apology of what could be construed as generalising young people.

The worst driving I see is usually middle aged men or very old ladies. Though young men are not far behind.

 

[realnumber 1]

ABS and Traction Control are extremely useful. Why do you think we spend £100's of thousands of pounds getting them onto race cars if the regs allow it.

The dynamics of a standard vehicle have changed massively over the past 20 years. What was a fast car in 1989 is merely a warm hatch today and the availability of what are essentialy quick cars has increased massively. 100bhp a litre was the holy grail 20 years ago and the preserve of the DFV and similar DuckTin type creations, 100bhp a litre is available in sodding Japanese shopping trolley now.

Do you need ABS/TCS - no. Does it make you a better driver - no. Is it useful - yes. Simple as that and its stopped a lot of people in cheap high specific output cars sticking them into the hedge or the car in front.

Oh and if you think you can out brake ABS on anything but snow/extremely loose surfaces you can't. I did an ABS install on a race car a couple of years ago - the drivers protested it all the way through. First test session driver comes back in claiming the ABS is useless/dead weight and at no point had he needed it/used it whilst out there - read the data and the ABS system had had 11 seperate activations on the hot lap previous to his in lap.

I'd rather every 'not interested in driving' type had ABS and TCS to keep them out of my boot/nose as 99% of them don't understand driving to the conditions of the road or limitations of the car.

Cheers
M

Well put.

 

[Kneel]

Its like anything not just driving , in most cases the older you are, the more experience you will have. Nowadays because technology moves on, the younger generation are brought up with these electronic driver aids and never experience cars without.





Think that makes sense

I would say experience and general mentality of drivers is the big issue. I can see the OPs point in that the driver aids give drivers more confidence in bad conditions but I disagree that they take away from driver skill. It is all down to the driver to be able to understand how a car will react to different conditions. I haven't had an off in winter yet and I am a young driver who learnt to drive cars with all these aids. I think another point is that when I passed my test I could only afford to buy and run a cheap car, so it didn't have wide grippy tires, or ESP/TC/ABS etc and I drove that and learnt how to control the car in the winter, so in the snow and ice. It all comes down to 2 things, the first is having the common sense to drive correctly for the conditions and to know that you have to be slower and smoother with the car and the second is experience purely because you cant know how you need to use the throttle/brakes/steering exactly until you have driven in bad conditions. Also, the manual advises you to switch off TC/ESP in snow or ice.

 

[W17GLE]

for a proper drivers car drivers aids are bad which is why i stick to ph1 172's. My vectra has electronic stuff on it and it cuts power in corners and only seems to do it at the worst possible moment. For the average driver that never pushes it and just wants to get from a-b i imagine its fine and may even help them. Ultimately i want full control of the car and with the electronics i don't have that.

Edit abs is annoying too!!!

 

[Daz.]

Bah thats why god gave us fuses for said aids - my abs will get popped out in bad snow and will stay in rest of time - these brakes are fanastic and if a little bit of abs is helping me out then its on my christmas card list for 2009!

 

[Mike_182]

A real man or woman drives they way you'll probably not understand yet, if ever.

You're on L plates right?

This is a discussion, not a personal crusade where you can s**t talk your crap life onto others. Keep to the topic.

Oh, and I am a real man btw, I just checked...

No, I agree with him. You sound like a c**k.

I drive (and have driven) all sorts of cars, some which make your GTT and Chavwagon look like the toys they really are.

Yes, you learn alot through sticking 500bhp through four wheels with no aids. However, my mum doesn't want to. She wants to drive safely to work and back in the day, and maybe pop out in the evening. At that point what use is a 'mans car' where, when you leave in the morning, you have to be psyched to the point where you can catch a knife in your teeth that's been thrown at 20 feet a second?

Get real. Yes, at the weekends I love howling around in my 'mans car' (which, incidentally, is ever so slightly more manly than a jumped up shopping car?) but ultimately when I want to get to work I just want to sit down and have it take me there.

6-7am in the morning is painful enough without it being any more painful than necessary.

 

[clio_luke]

This is why real drivers own 172 Cups ... (or 106 1.1s)

but you hear of more cups getting written off than other clio models.

 

[jonnyg]

Well put.

+1 the technology is there to make driving easyer and much more safe, i would hardly call somone less of a men just because they have abs and esp.

 

[caister]

+1 the technology is there to make driving easyer and much more safe, i would hardly call somone less of a men just because they have abs and esp.

Exactly. My friend at work turned the DSC off in his M3 and had an epic tallent failure hence why hes now driving a 520d.

As said the average woman/man wants to get from A-B as safetly as possible and in one piece.

My GF drives a Cooper S and she can drive it reasonably fast because it has ABS, DSC etc. My mum stays on the road solely because she has DSC which monitors what her right foot is doing. I have nothing against all these safety features as long as when you turn the things off they go off properly or even better in stages so that you can be nannied less.

 

[Tupps]

What an absolute utter bullsh*t thread... Being branded a crap driver just because of what you drive is just f*cking braindead