Latest RR graphs (172 turbo content)

[DMS]

That boost surge is what you get when boost is controlled on the engine side of the throttle, moving the actuator pipe, or boost controller pressure sensor in your case, to the other side of the throttle would have made a big difference. (I'm guessing on the controller bit as most folks connect them like this, but the actuator pipe looked to be tee'd into the FPR ref pipe in your previous thread, so it's a iair assumption that the boost controller was the same)

Sorry mate. I must have missed this post at the time.
The boost controller is plumbed in EXACTLY how it was before (as far as I can tell anyway). The only difference being that it's now been mounted on the bulkhead next to the coolant bottle just to tidy the engine bay up a bit.

 

[K-Tec Racing]

OK

Steve, the engine can see far more than 20 degrees change in Ambient to AIT.............. this I can prove time after time. On the road as well as the dyno

There are many different views on this

This is my and many others views.....

The engines power is affected by AIT, the higher it is the lower the power due to air density changes.
By correcting for this you are seeing the REAL engine power, or as close as damn it to controlled conditons as we are able with the kit at hand
The Dyno is an artificial environment, and on the road the AIT's will always be lower this creating more power than the dyno will see (Unless you use the temp probe at the point the engine draws its air in)
Now I can see how this can be varied depending on where the probe is placed and there is plenty of room for error..
I can also see the argument both ways for using and not using the probe
If the engine were in a dyno cell, the air entering the engine WOULD be the same as the cell, or damn close. Now this is perceived as correct power. In the bay of a car with a nominal 30mph fan the AIT will not be the same as on the road with volume and speed of air out in the real world.
Of course the argument that not everyone will be doing the same gives good reason not to use the probe, or as DD suggest put it on the front bumper (which is what we shall do, as this is what DD suggest)
What happens if the engine is run, then allowed to sit for 10 mins then run again.... without AIT correction the power will be lower 2nd time as the engine will have heat soak......... its an interesting point.

On Darren's engine he has a open cone in the bay, (the temp probe was in fact inside the air intake pipe from the filter to the turbo which is a fabric one) and with the bonnet closed and limited air flow to the engine the temps were reading higher, but this was what the engine was seeing at its inlet point. (not withstanding IC changes) however in this instance the ECU was showing 44-48 degrees at the inlet manifold (using Renaults OE sensor).

Also who is to say that the engines power is correct with this method of RR as well, on other dynos the engine power will be higher and some lower. So it may or may not be 300 bhp.... However Darren is happy with his car and thus so are we. We use a DD and its a good tool for mapping but I am under no illusions to it being definitive..... I am not sure what is. We always tend to see lower figures with the DD than most other RR's

Andy

 

[sideways danny]

Danny cheers for your input, but when was the last time you saw an Ambient Temp and Intake Temp vary by so much? It's impossible buddy. Unless as seems to be the case here, where the probe has accidently been left against a hot surface causing heat soak.


Steve

My car, last time it was mapped tbh. Going by the ecu ait sensor

 

[T.Trophy]

Well here we go again.

Of course the engine ECU will see an intake temperature increase, especially in a forced induction set up, as obviously the air is compressed. However its the IT that the Dynometer is seeing which is causing the issues.
By introducing a high IT the dynometer calculates that the power it's seeing will effectively be lower due to the high inlet temps that the engine is also seeing, obviously this gives a higher power reading. The probe is designed to give the temperature of the air entering the air filter assembly, not the air temp of air in the manifold or TB.

I find it strange that David has assured me that on 99% of you graphs you have logged there is only 3-6 Degress difference between AT and IT yet in Darrens case run 12 was done at 09:42 with AT 23 and IT 46 then over an hour later (Run 19 I think) at 11:02 again AT 23 and IT 46. Excuse me for being naive but thats very consistent temps considering the high IT's are being blamed on some form of heat soak. Also with reference to doing Darrens mapping with the bonnet closed? I just had a look through the Ktec Blog and every other vehicle I can see on the rollers has the bonnet up so why keep Darrens closed? again it all sounds a bit suspicious to me.

Now I feel were straying a little from what I originally refered to, all the stuff above about air flow out on the open road and how higher inlet temps yield lower power is all stuff I'm perfectly aware of and to be honest it's all a bit vague. In my eyes the facts are, if you did the dyno run again with the probe at the number plate as per DD's instructions, the power figures would be lower. How much by I'm not sure, but I'm guessing in the region of 15-20bhp.

Danny that sounds as though your sensor is suffering some heat soak mate, next time it's on a DD put the IT probe around the number plate area and I guarantee there wont be a 23 degree difference between the AT and IT.

Steve

 

[K-Tec Racing]

All mapping is done with the bonnet closed, just ask anyone who has been down to us and seen their car on the dyno. Keeping the bonnet up does not represent how the car runs on the road and can be dangerous with the large amount of air flow being pushed against it, I am sure there are also a few vids on here as well as on our site that show this. And anyone is more than welcome to view the database of print outs we have which contain the AT and IT and most cars are pictured on the blog with their bonnets up as the pics are taken before or after the mapping, as it is safer to do it this way.

David.

 

[Sym0n]

I <3 K-Tec threads.

 

[K-Tec Racing]

Now I feel were straying a little from what I originally refered to, all the stuff above about air flow out on the open road and how higher inlet temps yield lower power is all stuff I'm perfectly aware of and to be honest it's all a bit vague. In my eyes the facts are, if you did the dyno run again with the probe at the number plate as per DD's instructions, the power figures would be lower. How much by I'm not sure, but I'm guessing in the region of 15-20bhp.

Steve

Steve, no one is inferring that with the IT sensor positioned at the fron of the car we would not get a lower reading and in the interests of this thread not gooing off on a tangent I am happy to agree with you. But please take on board what we have explained to you, we are not trying to fudge any figures, mislead anyone or chase a specific number, there is simply no point in doing any of these things.

David.

 

[K-Tec Racing]

I <3 K-Tec threads.

You know what, I do as well as it gives us a chance to put our side across and hopefully clear up some incorrect conclusions.

David.

 

[T.Trophy]

Well thank you for agreeing with me David, even if it is only in the interests of this thread not going off on a tangent.

At the end of the day Ktec is a massive tuning company, and some people will believe everything you say with out question. All this thread has shown is that you also make mistakes.

TBH imagine if I hadn't pointed out the problem with the IT giving you a high reading, you might of put on your web site about a HPT kit that will give you 300+bhp. Then when people started buying the kit it will obviously fail to achieve those figures. Just think of all the threads I'm saving you from having to answer on here, from disgruntled clio turbo owners

 

[K-Tec Racing]

No problem Steve.

David.

 

[Blue Mez]

well that was an interesting debate... i was waiting for a... BADUM TISH conclusion but never got one!

 

[Silent_Scone]

Isn't the Gen90 just old gems technology anyway???

Still, it's a nice increase in power if accurate.

I must say it's always nice to see someone who's tried and tested the majority of turbo applications available for the F4R question the legitimacy of some of these figures. As said everyone makes mistakes. Just seems to be an awful lot of them coming out recently.

 

[K-Tec Racing]

I was wondering how long until the broken record was played again. :dapprove:

No it is not old Gems technology, please don't believe all the rubbish you are spoon fed. How many Gems ecu's can run the CAN on the Renaults etc?

This thread seems to have run its course, a happy medium has been reached so lets just leave it at that.

David.

 

[Silent_Scone]

No need to get arsey. I'd appreciate it if you let me know when my top mounts get to you on Friday. Could do with the money - towards my new engine

 

[K-Tec Racing]

No need to get arsey. I'd appreciate it if you let me know when my top mounts get to you on Friday. Could do with the money - towards my new engine

Hi Michael,

Please comment on your top mounts here:http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...ional-Queries-off-topic&p=7029527#post7029527

I hope you can understand this is a little off topic from Darrens original thread.

Thanks,

Sean

 

[danny4da_16]

I LOVE YOU STEVE :rasp:, Also you car looked awsome at malory!!!

 

[T.Trophy]

Cheers Danny glad you liked it.

Mez basically the outcome was Ktec have put there hands up and admitted that the dyno figures are indeed inflated due to the accidental placement of the probe. David assures me it's never happend before and I'm pretty certain it will never happen again after this little episode. I'll be honest though I run a full data logging system on my car which monitors everything, and I have a sneaky suspicion where the probe could of been placed especially with such cosistent readings. However I'm with David and feel this thread has run it's course.

Just for the record I've sent a PM of apology to DMS, as I do feel a bit guilty that I ruined his thread, in hind sight I probably should of raised my concerns in another thread but unfortunatley I can't turn back time. I also suggested in the PM that he take his car to an DynoDynamics rolling road, a company who has nothing to do with cliosport, Ktec, Rstuning etc... somewhere that will just put his car on the rollers give it a power run and give him a honest power output. He hasn't responded so I can only assume he's still furious with me or has believes I don't know what I'm talking about, either way I wish him the best of luck in his quest for 300bhp, but i will pre warn you it wont be enough

Cheers

Steve

 

[K-Tec Racing]

Steve, you are making it sound like we purposefully put the probe in a certain area to inflate the figures. Up until the beginning of this week we had always put the probe in the same area (usually in the air box) as there is a label on the DD boom that states the probe is to be placed where the engine draws its air in and we have taken this to be next to the air filter. You have been told on Darrens car the probe was placed in the air filter inlet, if you have a "sneaky suspicion" it was placed else where then you are completely wrong - fact. Please stop trying to make out this has been done in order to inflate figures, what would be the point? At anytime Darren could take his car to another dyno to test his car so there would hardly be any point in trying to falsify figures only to get a call from the customer wanting to know why the figures are so different.

As you have correctly summerised above, this thread has run its course, due to our placement of the air temp probe the figures on this car would have read a little higher due to it reading a higher air inlet temp than the 3-6 degrees we usually see, and from now on we will be positioning the air inlet temp sensor next to the number plate as per DD recommendation.

I hope this goes some way to ending this debate.

David.

 

[Magic Johnson]

Why is there:

a) No pics
b) No video

Sloppy work!

 

[K-Tec Racing]

There are pictures on the first page.

David.

 

[Magic Johnson]

I'd rather cream over actual pics/videos of the car than some (optomistic ) graph with numbers on it.

 

[Gally]

 

[Silent_Scone]

I'd rather cream over actual pics/videos of the car than some (optomistic ) graph with numbers on it.

agree! I second Steve on apologising for bringing mostly negative critisism in here. The car seems awesome and I'd love to see just how well it goes whether it be an actual 300bhp or not! Should come to Combe next week - would love to see it genuinely mate - and it's no gripe with you.



Steves a ledge & IMHO TDF for the win btw ................imho. x

 

[The Boosh!]

Hi Michael,

Please comment on your top mounts here:http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...ional-Queries-off-topic&p=7029527#post7029527

I hope you can understand this is a little off topic from Darrens original thread.

Thanks,

Sean

To re-iterate the above, can any more tecnical arguments please go in the above thread.

This one seems to go a little astray from Darren showing the results and his feelings of his new Turbo setup.

Granted alothough they may be relevant, I feel they are drowning the original purpose of this thread

 

[mattyw]

how are you insuring this? must be a bomb

 

[K-Tec Racing]

No problem Luke, thats all from me.

David.

 

[DMS]

Cheers Danny glad you liked it.

Mez basically the outcome was Ktec have put there hands up and admitted that the dyno figures are indeed inflated due to the accidental placement of the probe. David assures me it's never happend before and I'm pretty certain it will never happen again after this little episode. I'll be honest though I run a full data logging system on my car which monitors everything, and I have a sneaky suspicion where the probe could of been placed especially with such cosistent readings. However I'm with David and feel this thread has run it's course.

Just for the record I've sent a PM of apology to DMS, as I do feel a bit guilty that I ruined his thread, in hind sight I probably should of raised my concerns in another thread but unfortunatley I can't turn back time. I also suggested in the PM that he take his car to an DynoDynamics rolling road, a company who has nothing to do with cliosport, Ktec, Rstuning etc... somewhere that will just put his car on the rollers give it a power run and give him a honest power output. He hasn't responded so I can only assume he's still furious with me or has believes I don't know what I'm talking about, either way I wish him the best of luck in his quest for 300bhp, but i will pre warn you it wont be enough

Cheers

Steve

Steven... I have read your PM but unfortunately I completely forgot to respond. I've been off work all week and I've been concentrating on making the house and garden look half decent again - no mean feat, especially with my Mrs in my ear hole!
In hindsight maybe you should have put your concerns in a different thread, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm not angry with you (or anyone else for that matter) with regards to what's been posted in this thread. It is a free country after all, and people are entitled to put their views and opinions across. We all know what happens every time a thread relating to forced induction Clio's comes along - it usually descends into a completely irrelevant discussion about who's the best at mapping, it's pointless, waste of money, blah blah blah... In future I won't bother posting another thread on the subject because they all end up the same. I'll stick to enjoying the car and let people make up their own minds if and when they see it fly past

Why is there:

a) No pics
b) No video

Sloppy work!

Can't be bothered. Plus it's not very photogenic at the moment (in other words it's caked in s**t).

agree! I second Steve on apologising for bringing mostly negative critisism in here. The car seems awesome and I'd love to see just how well it goes whether it be an actual 300bhp or not! Should come to Combe next week - would love to see it genuinely mate - and it's no gripe with you.



Steves a ledge & IMHO TDF for the win btw ................imho. x

See above.

To re-iterate the above, can any more tecnical arguments please go in the above thread.

This one seems to go a little astray from Darren showing the results and his feelings of his new Turbo setup.

Granted alothough they may be relevant, I feel they are drowning the original purpose of this thread

Agreed, although I'm more than happy to hear peoples' questions, opinions and criticisms. I just think the K-Tec bashing has run it's course - they have their own section of the forum for those who can't resist.

how are you insuring this? must be a bomb

£794 a year fully comp with Flux, including D.O.C third party and UK breakdown cover. EVERY modification has been declared. I'm 24, 4 years NCB, no points or convictions and don't live in an area that's usually on fire.

 

[john182rs]

Well, good on you Daz. It does shift and it feels smooth even with the amount of power.

Good to see ktec doing a job properly yet again, it does not suprise me with the 'usual' people coming out with the pitch forks where it concerns ktec.
Maybe, just maybe one day these people will pull the head and tongues from ones ass rather than do nothing but b**ch and ****.

Anyway, i would love to have this work done to my car but simply the amount of bhp, lbs and ££ is shocking.
Daz, i would pay for your car to hit another rolling road just out of interest but would not touch another one from this site for the sheer safety of the results.

ALSO if the weather clears up i will attend yours with video and camera ready.

 

[Russ_16v]

:argue:

 

[Ant@BackyardRacing]

not really small when you consider power isn't far off doubled lol


very odd thing to say, that's a laggy very high output turbo, capable of ~500bhp. Totally unsuitable tbh



probably just about got away with that as they have a tiny exhaust housing

double the power for adding a turbo is childs play, i run a 1590cc honda motor that makes 120hp stock NA,
i have turbocharged it, it now makes 498hp, over 4x stock power.

as for laggy for a 30r, thats of course all opinion, i dont believe it is, but what i said was correct, it will make more hp/lb.
if you think its unsuitable, fair enough, it of course depends how you want the car drive/respond.

and yeah, the 28r was not exactly responsive on the 5 gt, but good enough for 11 sec 1/4`s with 1397cc`s.

 

[Danny133]

figures look awesome mate - get some car pics up!

As for KTEC .. i love my KTEC map and Andys a god as far as mapping goes. Much better than some other cowboys ive seen. Id rate Andys maps. In fact i already have quite alot.

 

[john182rs]

figures look awesome mate - get some car pics up!

As for KTEC .. i love my KTEC map and Andys a god as far as mapping goes. Much better than some other cowboys ive seen. Id rate Andys maps. In fact i already have quite alot.

Andys mapping is not the problem on this forum, its people only telling one side of the story then blaming their failure on Andy and people at ktec for what ever faults the owner has caused or just because they have been some where else.

But there are alot of members on here that have got their tongues or c***s firmly up certain tuners or members bums on here, then when they think every thing is better and believe what these people have told them they turn around and **** ktec for it, i have also known people to secrectly pm and tell people in person that they should have their car checked out for their own safety, ive experienced this myself.

Personally, i have only ever experienced high level of service and been treated with high standards, never had a major problem with my car when it comes to regards of ktec and any problems i have had they have solved very quickly for me.
I would say to anyone here that have not been to ktec, go try them first before you judge them.

DMS - sorry to jump your thread, but you know this had to be said.

 

[Danny133]

Well ive been to KTEC and tbh thought they were excellent.

Well looked after and always willing to give advice and support on the phone when i want it.

David & Andy are both top blokes. Love the 250 too had a nice spin in that lol Daves a lucky bugger

 

[DMS]

Oh goody. This thread has re-surfaced. I suspect it'll continue as it did before and get locked...

figures look awesome mate - get some car pics up!

As for KTEC .. i love my KTEC map and Andys a god as far as mapping goes. Much better than some other cowboys ive seen. Id rate Andys maps. In fact i already have quite alot.

Not really much point. The car looks like a complately standard Iceberg 172 from the outside, and I'm sure you've seen one of those before. Plus I never clean it so it looks s**t in photos.

Love the 250 too had a nice spin in that lol Daves a lucky bugger

He's got too much money IMO

 

[Russ_16v]

Andys mapping is not the problem on this forum, its people only telling one side of the story then blaming their failure on Andy and people at ktec for what ever faults the owner has caused or just because they have been some where else.

But there are alot of members on here that have got their tongues or c**ks firmly up certain tuners or members bums on here, then when they think every thing is better and believe what these people have told them they turn around and **** ktec for it, i have also known people to secrectly pm and tell people in person that they should have their car checked out for their own safety, ive experienced this myself.

Personally, i have only ever experienced high level of service and been treated with high standards, never had a major problem with my car when it comes to regards of ktec and any problems i have had they have solved very quickly for me.
I would say to anyone here that have not been to ktec, go try them first before you judge them.

DMS - sorry to jump your thread, but you know this had to be said.

IMO, its all personal experience, some people have good experiences, some have bad (this is with every tuner) and people will say the good and the bad, its the nature of an open forum.

Example, I think Paul at RS Tuning is a very good mapper, mainly due to when speaking to other tuners when doing my conversion, I was told not to bother, it wont work, even though I had it working. Paul gladly said he would have a go, and worked wonders, as well as getting great power it returns great fuel consumption. This isnt saying other mappers are not capable, just my opinion - Id trust TDF 100% for example.

This is what every thread on here is full of, peoples own opinions, you are entitled to yours, as is everyone else, be they disagree or agree.

The way I see it, although it wont be making the originally stated power, if DMS is happy then fair play.

 

[Silent_Scone]

As I remember it someone off here offered me some advise to get mine checked over, did it for piece of mind and now my car is running a lot better... As a wise business man said not long ago: "Don't believe everything you are spoon fed."

/rant

 

[john182rs]

I can see lockadile coming.

Yea fair enough you might have had good experience, but people on here to accuse another company of fixing the results just to make a customer happy is bollox.
Also how can they send out some thing unsafe and a danger to the drivers life.
I dont need to tell any of the rumors flying round as everyone pretty much knows it all now.

It just boils my piss though, i have had two bad experiences with tuners on this forum. I have posted them saying how disgusted i was with the service etc etc only for it to be locked and deleted then me to get a pm saying i will be done for flame baiting should i post it again.

Yet i see so many people that do openly **** or flame bait when it comes to the likes of ktec yet nothing happens.
I could quiet easily back up every thing i have said but i said to the people at the time i wont name them as it could affect them in their jobs with some of the people that are spreading rumors.

 

[DMS]

The way I see it is that if, as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the difference in AT and IT is 23 degrees, and if 2 degrees increase in temperature equals 1 lost bhp, then the car can't be more than 11 or 12bhp out?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 317 - 12 is 305bhp? No?

Either way, I'm not too fussed about this whole scenario. As I have already mentioned, I don't know too much about rolling roads or anything to do with tuning in general. I simply wanted a quick car that could embarass 99% of other cars with relative ease, and that is what I've now got.
I will be attending another rolling road at some point, not for bragging rights but as a social thing. I'll attend one of the many CS RR meets when time permits as I do with every local(ish) meet. And yes, I will post up the results in this thread (if the lock-o-dile doesn't strike first) to give a set of unbiased figures.
What I will stress though, is that the car is definitely much quicker now than it's ever been. I see no reason why it couldn't have gained 20 odd bhp plus and so much torque, on the basis of how much quicker it is now compared to what it's been like before.

 

[172boost]

Far too much technical waffle going on in this thread :rasp:

I want to see:

Pics
Videos
0-60/0-100 figures

THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTEEN HORSES in a clio. Top man.

 

[Russ_16v]

I can see lockadile coming.

Yea fair enough you might have had good experience, but people on here to accuse another company of fixing the results just to make a customer happy is bollox.
Also how can they send out some thing unsafe and a danger to the drivers life.
I dont need to tell any of the rumors flying round as everyone pretty much knows it all now.

It just boils my piss though, i have had two bad experiences with tuners on this forum. I have posted them saying how disgusted i was with the service etc etc only for it to be locked and deleted then me to get a pm saying i will be done for flame baiting should i post it again.

Yet i see so many people that do openly **** or flame bait when it comes to the likes of ktec yet nothing happens.
I could quiet easily back up every thing i have said but i said to the people at the time i wont name them as it could affect them in their jobs with some of the people that are spreading rumors.

I wont go into it mate, but there have been alot of threads deleted in the past about bad experienes with different companies, it seems now that good and bad experiences with different companies are now being left on the forum rather than being deleted, I think this is the difference your noticing, not other people getting away with it, but bad experience threads being left to view.

This, like most threads end up going in circles lol

The way I see it is that if, as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the difference in AT and IT is 23 degrees, and if 2 degrees increase in temperature equals 1 lost bhp, then the car can't be more than 11 or 12bhp out?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 317 - 12 is 305bhp? No?

Either way, I'm not too fussed about this whole scenario. As I have already mentioned, I don't know too much about rolling roads or anything to do with tuning in general. I simply wanted a quick car that could embarass 99% of other cars with relative ease, and that is what I've now got.
I will be attending another rolling road at some point, not for bragging rights but as a social thing. I'll attend one of the many CS RR meets when time permits as I do with every local(ish) meet. And yes, I will post up the results in this thread (if the lock-o-dile doesn't strike first) to give a set of unbiased figures.
What I will stress though, is that the car is definitely much quicker now than it's ever been. I see no reason why it couldn't have gained 20 odd bhp plus and so much torque, on the basis of how much quicker it is now compared to what it's been like before.

As long as your happy mate than thats fair enough, and the whole point

Far too much technical waffle going on in this thread :rasp:

I want to see:

Pics
Videos
0-60/0-100 figures

THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTEEN HORSES in a clio. Top man.

I would also like to see some vids