my suspension/geo set up

[bill]

I took the car to Grinspeed to get the geo set up, the car is running bilstein b14's and whiteline arb, so on arrival i explained the car had been set up a couple of year ago by deamon tweaks, to which his response was " lol f.ucking hell " anyway i left it with him to do his stuff, got a phone call later on saying the front right was ten mil higher than the front left, and basically it was all over the place, ( to be fair it drove well anyway, apart from pulling to the left ) and he questioned where they got there geo set up print off from as it certainly didn't match up.

The car is as low as it can go on the rear, so he lowered the front to suit 25mm rake,

camber is now

front 1.8
rear 1.3

toe

front 1 out
rear 1 i n

ride height floor to jacking point

front 135

rear 160 ( 25mm rake )

i had just put my winter steelies on with winter tyres, (before the set up ) and with the weather being s**t recently i have not really had chance to put it through its paces, but it definitely feels a lot sharper on turn in and more planted.

stephen from grinspeed is a jap specialist really, very nice guy and seems to know his stuff, but i'd like some comments off some fellow clio owners on the current set up camber etc, any adjustments advised? is it a case of the more camber the better the car will handle?

ps. more interested in how it handles on track than on the road

cheers

Bill

 

[NorthloopCup]

I run on kw v2's with ast top mounts and have 2.5 degrees camber at the front and 2 degrees camber at the rear. I have the top mounts set for maximum castor.

I run around 5-10 minutes toe out at the front (depends on time of year as it gives the steering a twitchy feeling) for good turn in. On the rear I've run with around 2 minutes toe out as well. That makes the car turn in really well, but the downside to it is that it also likes to try and swap ends! I'm currently running at standard toe in settings on the rear due to the wet weather.

From experience, clios seem to love a bit of rake and also respond very well to additional camber. I use mine on road and track and have had no issues with tyre wear even with 2.5 degrees of negative camber.

On track the car feels very planted and pointy. You get a bit of understeer but that's mainly due to running on road tyres. The switch to 15's and 888's will be happening next year now. On a recent trip to the ring I got a 8:39 lap in btg, so not to shabby considering it's on hankook s1 evo's.

Hope that's of some use. Any questions, just ask mate. I'm more than happy to help if I can. I have all my own gear (including corner weight scales!) and I've set up a fair few clios now.

 

[bill]

I run on kw v2's with ast top mounts and have 2.5 degrees camber at the front and 2 degrees camber at the rear. I have the top mounts set for maximum castor.

I run around 5-10 minutes toe out at the front (depends on time of year as it gives the steering a twitchy feeling) for good turn in. On the rear I've run with around 2 minutes toe out as well. That makes the car turn in really well, but the downside to it is that it also likes to try and swap ends! I'm currently running at standard toe in settings on the rear due to the wet weather.

From experience, clios seem to love a bit of rake and also respond very well to additional camber. I use mine on road and track and have had no issues with tyre wear even with 2.5 degrees of negative camber.

On track the car feels very planted and pointy. You get a bit of understeer but that's mainly due to running on road tyres. The switch to 15's and 888's will be happening next year now. On a recent trip to the ring I got a 8:39 lap in btg, so not to shabby considering it's on hankook s1 evo's.

Hope that's of some use. Any questions, just ask mate. I'm more than happy to help if I can. I have all my own gear (including corner weight scales!) and I've set up a fair few clios now.

thanks for the reply,i dont really understand the " minutes toe " with comparison to my toe settings? i see you have toe out on both the front and rear, where as i have toe out at the front and toe in at the rear, is this just a personal thing, or is it the norm?

i guess i need to get it on track and see how it is, and go from there, if i wanted more camber on the rear, would it require different shims or are they adjustable? not sure what size shims are on, stephen at grinspeed said he was putting shims on though.

i am planning to get pure motorsport solid top mounts and strutbrace next, with these fitted would the geo need to be set up again, or would this not be affected?

nice laptime by the way, love your colour combination, i noticed an immediate improvement from swapping to 15's even on winter steelies! would never have 16's on the clio again.

does corner weighting make a big difference, any negatives to doing this? how much added weight does this normally add?

 

[5678]

How does rake effect the handling?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Dave, Rake introduces caster, so that has an effect, it also can effect aerodynamics of the vehicle, as if the front is low and then the rear is higher it means that as the air passes under the vehicle there is a decrease in pressure so it causes downforce, your car needs to be very low in the first place for that to have an effect though, and needs a flat floor really too.

 

[Dan@SJM]

I had Emma.'s cup with bilsteins B14's set to 1.5* neg camber with 4 minutes toe out on the front, fully corner weighted and with her in it the diagonal weight balance was 49.9/50.1% its not far off eibach drop, but with the corner weighting its amazing, although as I'm a reasonable sized lump i unsettle it a bit lol

 

[5678]

Dave, Rake introduces caster, so that has an effect, it also can effect aerodynamics of the vehicle, as if the front is low and then the rear is higher it means that as the air passes under the vehicle there is a decrease in pressure so it causes downforce, your car needs to be very low in the first place for that to have an effect though, and needs a flat floor really too.

Thanks Chip.

Trying to plan the next phase for my car so I'm trying to decide on just an OEM suspension refresh with a couple of polybushes in there, or if I go a bit further and introduce coilovers and adjustable top mounts. The car is still a daily so the balance between usability and performance is important.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Luke has some Sachs for sale if yours is a cup packed 182?

 

[5678]

It is. I'll look.

Finally getting some MPSC tyres this weekend too!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cool stuff

 

[imprezaworks]

Good to hear Stevie looked after you, top guy.

 

[bozothenutter]

Dave, Rake introduces caster, so that has an effect, it also can effect aerodynamics of the vehicle, as if the front is low and then the rear is higher it means that as the air passes under the vehicle there is a decrease in pressure so it causes downforce, your car needs to be very low in the first place for that to have an effect though, and needs a flat floor really too.

doesn't rake decrease caster?
ie the strut gets turned forward/more upright?

or is this one of those counter intuitive things?
I was always wondering about this.

 

[...]

thanks for the reply,i dont really understand the " minutes toe " with comparison to my toe settings? i see you have toe out on both the front and rear, where as i have toe out at the front and toe in at the rear, is this just a personal thing, or is it the norm?

i guess i need to get it on track and see how it is, and go from there, if i wanted more camber on the rear, would it require different shims or are they adjustable? not sure what size shims are on, stephen at grinspeed said he was putting shims on though.

i am planning to get pure motorsport solid top mounts and strutbrace next, with these fitted would the geo need to be set up again, or would this not be affected?

nice laptime by the way, love your colour combination, i noticed an immediate improvement from swapping to 15's even on winter steelies! would never have 16's on the clio again.

does corner weighting make a big difference, any negatives to doing this? how much added weight does this normally add?

Ok lets try and answer a few question for you , any geo setting is measured in degrees and minutes , where 60 mins = 1 degree you could in theory split your minutes into 60 seconds but thats not really needed but you get the idea .

Rear camber can only be altered by using shims , the front by adjustable bolts or top mounts .

changing your top mounts would almost certainly alter your geo setup unless you were very very lucky .

corner weighting the car is done on a flat floor , with a weight scale under each wheel , you then add weight to a corner by raising the opposing corner in height thus altering the weight transfer static.

this would normally be done with the drivers weight in the car to give the desired setup.

There are 2 schools of thought on weight distribution as some people go for 50/50 (or as close to as is possible) across the diagonals so the car changes direction the same left to right , others (and it depends on type and weight of car) go for balanced across the front axle as this gives solid and stable braking ..... (across the diagonals can often leave the ns front slightly light )


can't comment on your toe settings , but increasing toe out scrubs the tyre more generating heat , and can aid turn in , but again its subjective to driver style .

 

[Chip-mk1]

doesn't rake decrease caster?
ie the strut gets turned forward/more upright?

or is this one of those counter intuitive things?
I was always wondering about this.

Lowering the back more than the front increases caster, lowering the front more than the back decreases caster.

Apologies for how I worded it, I should have worded it to say "changing rake introduces caster changes" as I agree how I have written it makes it sound like more rake (ie rear high) means more caster (ie strut leant back more) which is incorect.

Thanks for highlighting my typo there mate.

 

[...]

one of the main reasons i induce rake in setups is to counteract the weight transfer when coming off the brakes and turning in on track , however alot of drivers can keep that weight transfer to a minimum by trail braking all the way to the apex and being immediately on the power from the apex

 

[Sam@NP]

How does rake effect the handling?

Rake also effects front and rear roll centers and can be used to induce or reduce roll over/understeer.

 

[...]

Rake also effects front and rear roll centers and can be used to induce or reduce roll over/understeer.

which can also be helped by trail braking .

 

[bozothenutter]

Lowering the back more than the front increases caster, lowering the front more than the back decreases caster.

Apologies for how I worded it, I should have worded it to say "changing rake introduces caster changes" as I agree how I have written it makes it sound like more rake (ie rear high) means more caster (ie strut leant back more) which is incorect.

Thanks for highlighting my typo there mate.

No typo, just me trying to learn.

so purely from a caster point of view a level, or lower rear car would be best (this just being one of the many variables in setting up the handling of the car)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes from a caster point of view generally the last thing you want is to raise the rear more than the front (or lower the front more than the rear which is same thing of course).

 

[Dan@SJM]

I haven't found Emma's unstable/uneven when braking. Afaik she hasn't either. I had my LCR corner weighted too, which is what inspired Emma to get hers done. Makes a massive difference.

 

[...]

on a clio i doubt it will as its not light enough , when looking at cars half the weight of a clio then it can , so was just saying it as way of an explanation .

fit coilovers then you should be corner weighting the car else what's the point.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Ah I see. It makes as much as a difference as fitting the coilovers originally IMO.

 

[Fred@BTM]

the front right is supposed to be higher than the rest, where does all the weight sit in the car? = over the front right, hence the difference (driver and engine)

setting them all level (on the struts) especially with 172 cups induces the front left wheel to lock (like they do from factory) because the from right has more weight over it hence more grip

toe = 1 (1 what exactly? 1 degree? 1 min?)

 

[Chip-mk1]

LHD car is the way to go, you can have it level then, lol

 

[bill]

Good to hear Stevie looked after you, top guy.

yeah, nice bloke, will be returning there in the future for more work, cheers for bringing him to my attention.

Ok lets try and answer a few question for you , any geo setting is measured in degrees and minutes , where 60 mins = 1 degree you could in theory split your minutes into 60 seconds but thats not really needed but you get the idea .

Rear camber can only be altered by using shims , the front by adjustable bolts or top mounts .

changing your top mounts would almost certainly alter your geo setup unless you were very very lucky .

corner weighting the car is done on a flat floor , with a weight scale under each wheel , you then add weight to a corner by raising the opposing corner in height thus altering the weight transfer static.

this would normally be done with the drivers weight in the car to give the desired setup.

There are 2 schools of thought on weight distribution as some people go for 50/50 (or as close to as is possible) across the diagonals so the car changes direction the same left to right , others (and it depends on type and weight of car) go for balanced across the front axle as this gives solid and stable braking ..... (across the diagonals can often leave the ns front slightly light )


can't comment on your toe settings , but increasing toe out scrubs the tyre more generating heat , and can aid turn in , but again its subjective to driver style .

a bit bloody complicated this toe business lol, so new top mounts will mean a full geo set up again, better account for that on my next purchase then, is corner weighting expensive?

I had Emma.'s cup with bilsteins B14's set to 1.5* neg camber with 4 minutes toe out on the front, fully corner weighted and with her in it the diagonal weight balance was 49.9/50.1% its not far off eibach drop, but with the corner weighting its amazing, although as I'm a reasonable sized lump i unsettle it a bit lol

sounds impressive, and sounds like a plan!

the front right is supposed to be higher than the rest, where does all the weight sit in the car? = over the front right, hence the difference (driver and engine)

setting them all level (on the struts) especially with 172 cups induces the front left wheel to lock (like they do from factory) because the from right has more weight over it hence more grip

toe = 1 (1 what exactly? 1 degree? 1 min?)

makes sense i suppose, never thought about it like that, so do we presume deamon tweaks set all there cars up this way then? is this how you set suspension up on your customers car?

good question on toe what? its a bit baffling to me, just says toe 1 on my sheet, would that be degree's then?

 

[Gaz_]

Good to hear it still going

Serving you well?

 

[bill]

ah Glad you came along lol, yeah, its a great car, love it! touch wood, no serious problems as yet, no minor ones either to be fair, a few niggly things such as rear demister is pretty much always on, and the old airbag and servive light comes on the dash now and again, ( will get them sorted out soon enough ) made a few changes ( probably not to your liking lol )

where you aware the front right suspension was higher than the left out of interest? obviously you've read the thread, grinspeed reckoned the geo printout, was well off the cars actual readings, to be fair it has always drove well, but it does drive better now.

 

[Gaz_]

f**k knows, tbf, I could have played with it since the print out, its that long ago now I wouldn't know tbh! I was under the impression of Fred though

Airbag and serv will be the connectors under the seat imo, on my first Cup, Renault had chopped em off and just soldered them together!

Glad its still going strong! Always felt a good one lump wise

 

[bill]

fair enough mate, i'm more than happy with how it is at the minute, suppose a trackday will be the real test, ( not winter tyres )

its definitely the connectors under the seat, as a bit of a fiddle under there seems to sort it out, but it comes back on after the seat gets moved.

i'll be keeping it for a long time, hopefully get another car for the road and keep this as a toy

 

[Emma.]

Oh hai

IMG_0042 by Emma_Williams, on Flickr

I thought I could feel my ears burning lol.

The car is without a doubt awesome. I love it, my last track day the car was stupidly good. There wasn't a lot there that was quicker in the corners.

All the details for the corner weighing, ride hights and geo set up is in here somewhere

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...Progress-Thread-(Pic-heavy-and-essay-content)

 

[NorthloopCup]

The 1 written on your sheet probably means 1 millimetre. If you had 1 degree of toe out/in you would definitely know about mate!! Lol!

Thanks for the comments about my car as well btw.

 

[Martin.]

Great looking car Emma

 

[Emma.]

Great looking car Emma

Thanks

 

[bill]

Oh hai

IMG_0042 by Emma_Williams, on Flickr

I thought I could feel my ears burning lol.

The car is without a doubt awesome. I love it, my last track day the car was stupidly good. There wasn't a lot there that was quicker in the corners.

All the details for the corner weighing, ride hights and geo set up is in here somewhere

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...Progress-Thread-(Pic-heavy-and-essay-content)

very nice motor you got there,looks a little higher than i expected, will read your thread asap, cheers

The 1 written on your sheet probably means 1 millimetre. If you had 1 degree of toe out/in you would definitely know about mate!! Lol!

Thanks for the comments about my car as well btw.

thanks again for putting me right lol

 

[...]

much lower than that bill and you'll have an adverse affect on the handling .

 

[bill]

i'd say mines lower than that tbh, (then again looking at the pics, maybe not so much ) stephen at grinspeed advised me not to go any lower, best pic i have at hand although the front has been lowered since for rake, excuse the winter steelies!

 

[Emma.]

It's a little bit more nose down stance then mine.

I wasn't bothered about lows. I had sportlines before the bilsteins and loved how it sat. Function over form

 

[bill]

its more nose down than that now, that was before the geo set up, think that pic was about level ( or ment to be )

 

[Emma.]

Heres one of mine from the side

IMG_0035 by Emma_Williams, on Flickr

 

[bill]

stunning, any excuse eh! thats on 16's right? that will affect the height over 15's would it not? i wont be going any lower thats for sure, just about looks bang on imo