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Price of a basic race spec 1*2



  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Exactly ;)

Sod building a clio race car lol.

Agreed, me and Ash keep having that argument, with me saying the best thing he can do this winter is break his car for parts and build a honda instead or something else that might actually be competitive.

Going racing with an F4R is like entering sumo with anorexia. No matter how much talent you have, someone is going to beat you just cause they have a more suitable starting point.
 
Where James is at now and the number of mods he is planning you could easily be right.

Clios are cheap to get compliant with the safety regs but expensive to get competitive.

To the OP I'd say based on your experience don't discount other types of motorsport e.g. autosolos, sprinting, hill climbs. They may not seem like good value for money when it comes to seat time but actual competitive motorsport is very different to track days. I'd say it is much more intense.

Where are you based? I can point you at your local motorsport club.

Edit: Forgot to say I have probably done less than 10 track days but I've done loads of other motorsport, started out grass track racing.
 
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  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
I used to grass track race motorbikes, was great fun. Will maybe do cars one day if I end up with more free time. As you say, good way to learn.
 
Many threads on this very forum prove that time & time again unfortunately.
:eek:


No but to the OP, I'm the last person to take advice from but don't worry about car mod's for now just get a reliable road car and get on some track days under your belt. When things start needing upgrading do them. I started off trackdaying in my road cars for years and it was awesome fun bog standard to start with and the most I did was upgrade pads and discs and 888's job done! The car never had one issue (That wasn't covered under warranty ;))
 
Cheers for the amount of suggestions and valued opinions fellas ill let you all know when I get my self something. gonna go for a 182 and use it as a road car/track car and progress. Gonna start at the bottom and go from there. Think you lot have probably saved me some money so thanks for that lol. I'm based in Norfolk. Kings Lynn to be a bit more accurate. Cheers
 
If I were silly enough to build another clio from scratch or was going to get one for the purpose of track days etc then I would buy a 172 cup. I started off with a 182 and have swapped the headlights to halogens, re-done the whole braking system to get rid of the ABS, Re-wired to get rid of all the ABS loom, fit the 172 Cup alternator setup to get rid of the aircon etc. Would of saved plenty of money by just buying a 172 cup. Good luck with it all :)
 
  182cup & 172 racecar
Don't do it, you will spend a house before you know it.

The link to Jamie's car is a good bet, that car is quick, built well and some spares.

Or just do some track days and have some fun.
 
Cheers BIGASH. fancy a 182 as if I do build a race one ill get a different car a (172 cup) and keep the 182 as a daily. Good luck with you're rebuild.
 

mikekean

ClioSport Club Member
  996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
Agreed, me and Ash keep having that argument, with me saying the best thing he can do this winter is break his car for parts and build a honda instead or something else that might actually be competitive.

Going racing with an F4R is like entering sumo with anorexia. No matter how much talent you have, someone is going to beat you just cause they have a more suitable starting point.

So true, the F4R is a s**t engine really. Seriously considering a Honda K20 for my rally car (or even K20/24 hybrid) only trouble is getting a bellhousing adapter and flywheel made up so i can still keep the Sadev box. 240-250hp no problems on ITB's on an internally standard engine that you can pick up for about £1500
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
So true, the F4R is a s**t engine really. Seriously considering a Honda K20 for my rally car (or even K20/24 hybrid) only trouble is getting a bellhousing adapter and flywheel made up so i can still keep the Sadev box. 240-250hp no problems on ITB's on an internally standard engine that you can pick up for about £1500

Yeah, honda is the way to go engine wise for 4 pots IMHO

This is my in progress mk1 clio build, b18c4 has solid lifters and an LSD as standard in the box too which is a good cost saving on both fronts when building a "proper" motor.

240c5613.jpg


246f8974.jpg
 
  Cup In bits
Agreed that buying a ready built car is cheaper but if your like me, you would replace or redo most of the work anyway, beats the purpose. Most pre raced cars up for sale are in need of a rebuild as owners have had their fun and moving up or out of racing. You will pay a premium for a car that's had a refresh.

If 10 k is your budget just for the car, its achievable if you buy the right car at the right price and you are willing to do a lot of work yourself. My build Is around that and I have far from a standard spec engine or chassis. I will only be taking my car to get mapped and maybe interior sprayed, if you have friends that can machine, weld etc then it really helps with costs.
 
Interesting thoughts here. With one of my customers we seriously evaluated using a 172/182 for the Castle Combe Saloons; but the bug bear was the engine. I'm developing an F4R race engine for a friend now, but it's a very difficult one compared to some others, they all have their advantages/disadvantages.

Peugeot engines are among the best for race builds, I know that'll get some spiky reaction here, but you have three basically really good 16v engine designs (TU, XU, EW) that are well suited to 14-1600cc (TU), 16-2300cc Iron or alloy block. They have wonderfully simple and reliable valve trains, a good range of strong standard cranks and the head castings allow you to build small port or big port engines as you wish to get pretty much any power delivery you like. The latest EW engines have a block ladder design that makes it as strong and lighter than the Japanese rivals. The chassis' are light and very effective too, not to be ignored for this kind of use!

Ford engines of late aren't quite as great as they're made out to be. I've done alot of development with these and had a great deal of championship success with the Sigma/ZETEC-SE 1400, but it's a fragile and expensive engine to build compared to the equivalent Peugeots. The Duratec 1.8-2 litre engine can make impressive numbers in the right hands, but the breadth of the delivery can't match Peugeot/Vauxhall equivalents and although it seems like alot of parts are available, you have to junk so much of the standard engine to make it reliable, that there's not really any middle ground between the road engine and a race one. Also the apparent appeal of the Fiesta ST150, is curbed by the chocolate gearbox, even a Gucci gearkit can solve the problems with the selector design.

Old school Honda engines I prefer to be honest. The B and H series were born race engines and although you don't really have the option of building a small port grunt engine, they can be made to work very well and have the best parts availability of all. The gearboxes are good to and the older Honda Chassis' are easily made good. I've not got quite so much love for the latest F20C and K20 engines. I've done alot of work with them and like the "Duratec", they can make impressive numbers, but the delivery always seems to lack punch somehow. Naturally I blame the huge ports! For a race engine with close ratios, that's maybe not a major, but don't just look at the numbers and think they're the best. Also although parts availability is excellent, there's alot of bull***t too, it's the biggest aftermarket darling and attracts all the attention good and bad. Bear in mind that the K20, although ultra-reliable in standard form (as long as the oil's topped up), is not reliable in race form past 8500rpm with standard valve gear. To overcome that issue is HUGELY expensive. as had been said, "fast road" spec with the right ITB design can be very cost effective though and can't be ignored.

Vauxhall engines are very effective and well supported, particularly the older C20 and X14-X16 series. The Corsa B and C can be made to work well. I'm not really a vain person, but not sure I could race a Corsa!

Be wary of wild-card engine choices. Parts will be difficult to get (you might have to get into designing custom parts, which is a risky business) and getting good support at reasonable cost, from a good engine builder may be difficult. I use to thrive on the challenge of making a quirky engine work, but that's gradually worn off as I realise how much it really costs me to do! If an engine builder tries to talk you out of something, ask yourself why?! It may be because he's a dull, stuck in mud or profiteer; or perhaps he can see the problems you don't.

Regards the Combe series... I get alot of people from outside trying to play it down, saying it's a one circuit series with specifically developed cars etc. Well to some extent that's probably true. But it's regularly shown in the motorsport press as one of the toughest series, with 30-40 car grids at every round, when some others struggle to get 20 cars. Also it has the challenge of running on road tyres, list 1A, R888s/A048s etc are not allowed, which presents a unique challenge of preserving the tyres for the length of a 20 minute race; I'm sure those of you who've done a trackday on road tyres will appreciate what that means! Will DiClaudio's 1:14 time mentioned above, was on 2nd hand slicks, but he's done 1:15.9 on Yoko AD08s, the current series lap record and when the CSCC tip tops came to Combe (perfect dry weather BTW!), only Mike Jordan did better with 1:14.557 on slicks, the best of the rest was Nigel Tongue's 306 with 1:17.991, the rest of the field 1:18.8 upwards. That's most of the field running 2 seconds or more slower on slicks compared to road tyres! Also Jason Cooper, who I won the 2009 Combe Saloons championship with (1400 Fiesta), was being touted as a Combe specialist, wouldn't work elsewhere; he's just won the 2012 Fiesta ST championship by a useful margin, touring the top UK circuits.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Fantastically informative post there sandy. Thanks for taking the time to write all that :)

sone more info on this f4r you are building would be interesting. Are you using the standard valve train?
 
Once it's all done, working and finalised, I'll write it up. We've decided to limit the rpm and keep the std rockers in this one, i've made some changes beyond that to help valvetrain reliability and durability. This will be literally the first F4R I've built, so bound to be some room for improvement, I'm already thinking about the next evolution!
 
I notice most of the posts in this thread are giving some very valuable advice on the type of car you could build/buy.
May I give you some advice regarding your choice of hobby.
As you have never raced a car before, may I suggest you start by looking on the MSA website, and joining a motor club close to you. You will find there are diverse forms of motorsport that are much much cheaper than circuit racing. For instance a 1*2 is a great car to compete in speed hillclimbs or sprints, with classes to suit the modifications to the car.
You may find rallying floats your boat.
It really depends on what you want to do as a hobby. You will find a wealth of information, and probably make some life-long friends at your local motor club. Join and join in before you take the plunge and buy/build your first car.
Happy motorsport!
 
Can I concur with that of sorts? I always feel that it's important to remember that it is a leisure activity, to be enjoyed! Things do get pretty serious in the circuit championships at the front and the racing is often more enjoyed in the mid-field to the back, where there's less pressure to score points etc. Although my circuit engines are what I'm best known for, my first taste of motorsport was local (Cornish) sprint/hillclimb events and you might hear some people running them down, in terms of track time vs cost etc, but they are much gentler on the car, enjoy some great locations and much cheaper to get into and compete, especially with a near standard car.
 
  182cup & 172 racecar
Sandy, I agree with what you've said, but just to let you know Mike and Nigel were on legal road tyres not slicks as stated. We are not allowed slicks in Tin Tops.

There is a little buzzy Saxo in our series 1600cc, and that takes some getting past, took me 3 laps at Anglesey..
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Ah, that explains it then Tony, I couldnt work out why it wasnt doing 1:12/1:13 if on slicks like was implied by Sir_Dave's comparison.

Although its a bit pointless comparing slicks and road tyres, that doesnt change the fact though that 1:14 is an epic time around combe on any tyres when you only have 1600cc and are in a hatchback still not a 7 etc.
 
  182cup & 172 racecar
I would be happy to do a 1.14 in anything.

Just thought I'd put the record straight on the tyre front, a lot of people call our tyres slicks, don't know why. I wouldn't fancy driving around all day on Direzza's though.
 
Sandy, I agree with what you've said, but just to let you know Mike and Nigel were on legal road tyres not slicks as stated. We are not allowed slicks in Tin Tops.

List 1B are slicks to Combe Saloons drivers! Typically worth around 1.5-2 secs on a race lap of Combe we've found. Will's 1:14.397 was on secondhand Dunlop 180 width 15" A46D slicks. There are circa 500bhp 2 litre turbo cars running in that championship, that are regularly beaten over the line by our 1600 106s; the point really I guess being what a good package and value the 106/Saxo represents for this sort of competition.

Here's quite a good view of a typical race (a bit of whoring from the Motors TV live race day), which one of my 106s won overall: http://youtu.be/I4KRQzoCEPA
 
  Cup In bits
Sandy what would a saxo/106/205 realisticly cost to build with one of your engines and a sorted chassis. I suppose a diff , modified axles, wishbones etc etc would be needed to be a front runner??
 
None of our guys have built the car from scratch to be a front runner, they've all started out basic and evolved the car. That's the way to do it really, the costs don't seem so bad over time and you get the most out of the car through each development phase and learn it better. Jason Cooper's Fiesta (in later 1600 form) and Nick Charles' 106 both cost about £20k all told, but spread over several seasons. They both recovered healthy 5 figure sums back for the cars when sold. My point there being reinforced by the fact that neither new owner has matched their times as yet. You learn with the car I think.
 
  Cup In bits
Im personaly building a clio to be a half decent spec so I have a chance of running towards the front, dont need to be ringing its neck while I cut my teeth. Obviously there will still be loads of room to evolve the car, for me thats the best.

What kind of power are your ford/puegot/Citroen engines putting out for say a 6k layout on the engine?
 

Bluebeard

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
A good friend of mine had a 106 GTI with a Sandy engine, 220 BHP.

You'd need to rob a bank to get a 2.0 F4R to do those figures N/A.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Im personaly building a clio to be a half decent spec so I have a chance of running towards the front, dont need to be ringing its neck while I cut my teeth. Obviously there will still be loads of room to evolve the car, for me thats the best.

What kind of power are your ford/puegot/Citroen engines putting out for say a 6k layout on the engine?

6K on a c20xe vauxhall engine will see you around 240bhp and 180lbft, the key differences being that you can rev a C20XE to 8500rpm much more cheaply and that proper motorsport quality parts (such as decent bodies and exhaust manifolds) are readily available secondhand, even cams are cheaper.
 

Bluebeard

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
Proper spec 106 Gti or Saxo Vts with a Sandy Brown race engine.

This would have been perfect in fact: http://www.nick-charles.co.uk/for-sale.html

A 106 with one of his engines did this the other day:



Some people might recognise the following video (Daniel posted it before), Dave Kift's 106:


Proper.


On Toyo T1R's.

If the Castle combe lot could use R888's and the like, then some amazing times would be done i'm sure.
 
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Sir_Dave

ClioSport Trader
A good friend of mine had a 106 GTI with a Sandy engine, 220 BHP.

Dave Kift's iirc?

Great to see Sandy putting some input into a racecar thread - some excellent knowledge to be shared! Both in terms of engine building and/or other forms of motorsport no doubt. Feel free to post some videos of Colin's 205 as well btw ;)

Look forwards to reading more about the 1*2 in due course :)
 

Bluebeard

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
Yes mate.

Apologies, I posted and then decided to read the rest of the thread.

I'll get back in my box now.
 
  Cup In bits
HOW MUCH lol, that's ace. F4r's are like drawing blood from a stone but 230bhp N/A is fairly easy to get for 6k which is like a 60-70bhp increase, should be more being 2.0L. From the power you have quoted Daniel, that would be a 80-90bhp increase , can't see Sandy's engines costing less than 6k for a reliable 220bhp spec. Im not putting his work down here as I have heard nothing but good things about him and his work. Clio's Achilles heel is the weight against other French boxes of same class, torque would be higher with F4r, needed when not doing flat track's.
 

Bluebeard

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
It's not my place to say what was paid for the engine as it was nothing to do with me.

Lets just say Sandy will be a welcome figure in the clio scene if he goes down that route!! lol.
 
  DON'T SEND ME PM'S!!
A good friend of mine had a 106 GTI with a Sandy engine, 220 BHP.

You'd need to rob a bank to get a 2.0 F4R to do those figures N/A.

I'm always dubious of those figures from that engine. Having been involved with a few there's a bit of a brick wall limit a fairly significant way below 200. Everyone else who's ever worked on them accepts the same rough limits. To go past 200 you need to hit some insane revs, which means rods, pistons valves, valve springs, retainers, solid lifters, and cam profiles that make low and medium revs basically useless
 

Bluebeard

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
I'm always dubious of those figures from that engine. Having been involved with a few there's a bit of a brick wall limit a fairly significant way below 200. Everyone else who's ever worked on them accepts the same rough limits. To go past 200 you need to hit some insane revs

Dave was recording 9000 in a few of his races.

I'm not sure if you class that 'insane' though.
 

Sir_Dave

ClioSport Trader
And Sandy's figures usually come from an engine dyno, not a rolling road ...

Also, ultimate power figures mean nothing imho, driveability, race pace & results are ultimately just as important surely.
 
  DON'T SEND ME PM'S!!
Dave was recording 9000 in a few of his races.

I'm not sure if you class that 'insane' though.

well you need solid lifters and uprated valve springs to get past ~175bhp at 7500rpm, anything above that without and you just get valve bounce, and airated lifters.
 
  DON'T SEND ME PM'S!!
And Sandy's figures usually come from an engine dyno, not a rolling road ...

Also, ultimate power figures mean nothing imho, driveability, race pace & results are ultimately just as important surely.

also correct, could have gone for peak power with the burpspeed F4R, but the aim I was given to start with was pulling out of corners better that the previous season
 


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