RS Tuning Clio 182 Rolling Road Results

[Guy]

i just wondered if yours was the 182 that was done

 

[jas1]

yes mate

 

[Phill1978]

the question thats got to be asked is anyones 182 really a 182

that is the question

lots of people are tuning i.e mapping clio`s now due to better tuning options avaliable, in the past it was a case of induction kit and exhaust, now its mapping aswell amongst inlet, manifolds,cams the list goes on..

so people are getting onto the RR`d a lot more frequently than they did before or at least posted about before...

so, we have 172`s with just 164hp stock and 182`a with 172bhp ??? but then again we have 172`s with 179bhp stock !!
there is a massive difference is power outputs relative to the power avaliable and claimed, but im not sure its all bad news the ones with lower HP seem to have higher LBFT which is more important in day-day usage
this would explain strangley fast cars like Subways, or exellent economy of 40+ mpg on some 172`s yet others cant manage over 35mpg

it could also explain why some 182`s seem not as whip crack sharp as the ye olde MK1 172.

best thing to do is get the inlet manifold done by GDI to bring power back then perhaps get a chip like this in conjunction with some of the more time honoured methods like cat back exhaust and a decent cold air feed.

 

[Andy GDI]

just to clarify, its AWT that do the manifold work... we fit them.

good thread...

some good remarks by meggerman as well.... the powers do vary a great deal from car to car.... but one thing that seems to even them out....

match the manifold + map them and they seem to produce very similar power figures. So from the work we have been doing that seems to be the main factor in them varying.

 

[BenR]

Any answers to my questions?

 

[jas1]

Thats an extreem amount from a remap, very impressive!

What software are you using?

What areas have you changed inparticular.

What sort of peak timing are you running?

And were the tests all dont on the same fuel, and 95 or 98?

Cheers guys, just some questions to see what your doing to get 12bhp and 15lbs.ft!!!!!

can answer the last one for you, car was run on standard 95 fuel, 3 maps were run on the dyno back to back within a 30min period

 

[Lagerlout]

Sounds like a tweaked fluctrum valve and a tinker with the flux capacitor. All for 12bhp and 15 ft/lb!! nice!!

 

[RSTuning]

FAO Ben R

That is exactly what i thought! I don't make any changes to the maps myself as this takes years of experience and a few blown engines! The software i am using has been provided by a French man who does many of the RS 172/182 range and promised good results. When the car was on the rollers everything was checked including nock/pinking and there were no problems at all. The car was running on 95 RON fuel and the only mods were a Magnex Zorst, and a really badly fitted Viper (Sorry Jason:rasp: ) which was likely to restrict airflow as it was sat on the radiator!

As for insurance anything is possible but on the surface it is not really detectable unless they have a solder station, programmer, skills, winols and the full original file from this car!

Hope this helps

Paul

 

[olin]

At the end of the day these are the results we have so if you don't want it don't buy it!

Certainly not since if I would care about my engine. If you don't know what you're modifying in the map don't modify it. We've seen a lot of engines returning for guaranty that where badly remapped. This is very easily detecable at the mapping department ( Les Ulis ).
Of course the guaranty does not cover it.

 

[BenR]

It is an extreemly large amount to gain from plain fueling/ignition modifications. I applaud the back to back testing, its a good sign your trying to establish as solid evidence that us tuners can provide. However, i'd be questioning your tuner in france as exactly what changes are made and to where.......these engines make a stunning amount of power when they are detting or experiencing abnormal combustion.

At minimum i would, under your own efforts, take an AFR log against RPM/torque/bhp and ask him for a WOT advance curve......

And is the RR an eddy current or an inertia RR?

 

[RSTuning]

Certainly not since if I would care about my engine. If you don't know what you're modifying in the map don't modify it. We've seen a lot of engines returning for guaranty that where badly remapped. This is very easily detecable at the mapping department ( Les Ulis ).
Of course the guaranty does not cover it.

Are you for real or what, If you actually read the full thread yo would see that NO modifications have been made by us. This is a proven remap used on other vehicles round europe. We spent hours on the rollers with this map checking every throttle position, varying the load and listening for any nasty pinking etc. Fair enough you may have your own view but why be so negative?

Oh P.S is it that you are a tuner and can't gain more than 6hp?:rasp:

Paul

 

[BenR]

No, olin is from france as is quite active with the current tuning scene over there. He knows what can and cant be done, and he's simply asking how.

Olin has a big reputation with the French crowd, and his knowledge/skills are more than above par.

What did you use to listen for pinking?

 

[RSTuning]

It is an extreemly large amount to gain from plain fueling/ignition modifications. I applaud the back to back testing, its a good sign your trying to establish as solid evidence that us tuners can provide. However, i'd be questioning your tuner in france as exactly what changes are made and to where.......these engines make a stunning amount of power when they are detting or experiencing abnormal combustion.

At minimum i would, under your own efforts, take an AFR log against RPM/torque/bhp and ask him for a WOT advance curve......

And is the RR an eddy current or an inertia RR?

Good point mate, more constructive than some others! I will be speaking with him on monday to find out what has been modded and where but he has assured me this map is safe and has been run on many cars. I would like to believe this as the power run was a full diagnostic run not just to find the power. The guy that operates the roller commented that this was an excellent map with no ignition problems.

This is the Dyno:
http://www.dyno.com.au/usa/products/product_450Lowboy.htm

Cheers

Paul

 

[RSTuning]

The guys used some sort of headphone set to listen for pinking.

Paul

 

[BenR]

good dyno!

 

[Aust1n]

Indeed^

 

[olin]

Sorry Paul if I appeared to be rude, this was not meant. I just wanted to warn you that there are "dangerous" mapping programs circulating in France.
The mapping center at "Les Ulis" ( Renault Sport design center ) knows them well...
Just be carefoul what you are implementing, even if it appears to work on the bench.

 

[BenR]

Correct!

Cars running on the RR tend to achieve rouchgly a 1/2 point richer than they do on the road, so tend to lean out one you use them in the real world, which is where problems can arise regarding the safety.

 

[MarkM]

So BenR and Olin I sense, although you are being nice about it, that for the power gain the map is probably having a detrimental effect on the engine in terms of durability?

 

[BenR]

i wouldnt know, i've not experienced the map, nor have i had any answers to any of the questions about the actual parameters changed.

I'm constantly asked exactly what i do, what i change, why and how i go about it, and i constantly answer.

I'm finding it hard to see 13bhp from a chip, 13bhp as a single modification in the real sense requires a shed load more processed air, which ultimately is where ALL power comes from. Now either this car was running very lean to start with or had an ignition map that was running something ridiculous like 13 degress peak timing.

I'm not hating on, or bitching about this remap, it could quite well work. I'm simply asking one question.....how?

Because, that is one HUGE gain from a chip.....

are there any results for a totally stock car?

 

[RSTuning]

Sorry Paul if I appeared to be rude, this was not meant. I just wanted to warn you that there are "dangerous" mapping programs circulating in France.
The mapping center at "Les Ulis" ( Renault Sport design center ) knows them well...
Just be carefoul what you are implementing, even if it appears to work on the bench.

No probs mate, i was a bit hung over to day 2 so maybe i was a bit fast to jump . Any comments are welcome and i will be asking for full details on the remap on monday. Have you done any work with the S3000 on the Megane?

As for a std car this will be done next friday. I have results from another remap which ran only 5 BHP and 11lbft more so if all else fails this one will be tested and tweaked.

Cheers

Paul

 

[Guy]

what car are you using next friday? 172 or 182?

and is it totally standard engine wise?? no induction kits or non standard exhausts?

 

[RSTuning]

what car are you using next friday? 172 or 182?

and is it totally standard engine wise?? no induction kits or non standard exhausts?

Yes a totally standard 182, well it has a panel filter but that will be replaced with a stock filter before we commence

Paul

 

[Guy]

look forward to seeing the results

 

[Phill1978]

yup i think at this stage its correct to get every result and info so as we all dont blow our engines up lol lol

 

[Quadra]

One point that appears to have been overlooked on the original test was the badly sited air filter arrangement. If the air filter was, as stated, located behind the radiator, the warmer and therefore less dense air would result in a lower power figure on the first run, possibly explaining the 172 bhp figure from a 182 Clio. Was the air filter relocated as part of the work and if so this might go some of the way to explaining the large increase in BHP. Its good to see someone having a go at getting better performance out of these cars especially lower down in the rev range, and it will be good to see the results of a test on a totally standard car.

Mike

 

[bellautos]

Edited

Regards Bell

 

[Rhys182]

^^^He's not asking exactly what changes have been made. He's asking for a basic explanation of where all this extra power and torque is coming from from a remap.

Any tuner (which BenR is, and who by all accounts knows what he's talking about) should be able to at least explain what it is they do when modifying something, especially to this extent. So if this company are offering it then I think people have every right to ask questions.

 

[Guy]

why the edit and removal of the post?

 

[Rhys182]

^^^ Was just thinking the same

 

[bellautos]

why the edit and removal of the post?

Because i read one of his previous posts and relised that he said he was a tuner. so i thaught what is the point of telling him that NO tuner will tell a customer what is changed.because he will no that .

 

[bellautos]

Here is whats changed. If you can understand it. This is why my previous post was stating NO tuner will tell you exactley what and why is changed, amongst some other bits.

A real tuner dont need to no cos he can do his self.

http://www.bell-auto-services.co.uk/182.jpg

 

[Rhys182]

It's not about telling the customer exactly what is changed. IMO any car enthusiast who is having modifications made to their pride and joy will want to know some basic info on the work being done. BenR by all accounts, along with the guys at GDI are happy to do this, and this is the way it should be. We all know they don't have to give away their biggest secrets, as that is their livelyhoods. I myself, as an automotive engineer appreciate the amount of time and effort that goes into developing new modifications etc. But at the end of the day, without keeping the customers happy you have nothing.

I'm sure all the genuine engine tuners on this site will agree with me

 

[bellautos]

OK
what is changed is

Ignition
injection
Torque
Lambda

Is this what people want to see ???

To go into any more detail will reveal how the map is tuned.

 

[jonnyboy]

Angelworks & GDI to be fair are established tuners on here, a new tuner has come along with very good results, theres bound to be some questions asked because the new boys seem to be ahead fo the competition from what I can see (In terms of non intrusive remapping/none bespoke chips). Lets see what the RS Tuning cars do on the 1/4 mile next year against these other chips/mods.

I think its only fair to be receptive to new tuners, especially with properly proven results. Its not like LAD coming on here saying they get 200bhp from a wash and wax.

 

[BenR]

Guys, i really think you need to read my posts.

I find the gain amazing, to the extent semi-unbelievable.....but hey, when people claim 100% more than most other generic remaps, then someone has to ask How was it done, and howcome it wasnt done before. And i applauded the effort, results, test methods and equipment.......all in all, there is nothing wrong with the testing procedure, from what i can tell.

However, like i and other people said, its a large gain.

I am grilled about my camshaft design by people, and those who buy serious cylinder heads get serious information about every single aspect of data. Just because i give all the data doesnt mean anybody will be able to do anything with it. Infact, you could probably copy my camshafts to 9 tenths with the information i give with a good cam design program.......but hey, i pity those who would have to.

As with you, its only natural that i ask some questions on what is changed.....and seeing your hex details posted means zilch to me since i dont remap std ecu's or even remap in hex........i'm an engine developer, not a software engineer and i'm happy not being one, i dont get into that side too much as there are standalone ecu's i'm happy with.

I understand you are protecting your investment and trump card, but if you were to post an AFR log curve and ignition curve, like every customer has the right to know, it would be easy for people to see the target parameters your trying to hit. Now it wont be anything new, nor will most people be able to go about replicating the map.

I mean, its not like your handing me a .bin and .adr are you.

So dont worry, most of us are secure enough in ourselves, and specialist enough in our areas that we dont cross over, its just interest from another geek. If i didnt run a company, i could ask a million more questions and demand more detail within rights of the customer (ofcourse with you refusing right to sell to me ), but i wouldnt get the bashing for 'stealing' lol.

Thumbs up to someone who's trying to push, and thats always good.

But now i'm lost, is it bellauto the uk chip company, or this guy in france who made the maps?

 

[jonnyboy]

bellauto is a seperate tuner to RS tuning but I think he has helped out with some of the contacts/software for RS runing to get them started on the renaultsports

 

[len_beach]

Why not suck it and see?
How about a 182 remap xmas raffle. All those owners out there who are interested, chip in to the pot then pull a name out of the bag. Whoever wins gets a cheap as chips remap and proves the claims.
Stupid idea but these maps need more support. I don't profess to be a tech wizard but I know enough and I also know when my car is quicker. Obviously I can only comment on my map but it worked. Then again, I suppose +5 bhp and 12 lb/ft is more in line with the norm.

 

[BenR]

who is RS tuning then?

 

[len_beach]

who is RS tuning then?

pmurray