Turbo or Supercharger? Clio 182

[Mad Fred]

Which would you choose/chosen?...Had a look at K-Tecs not bad figures..
The following is from the K-Tec site..
UPDATE; Recent performance testing on a Clio 172 fitted with this kit to its standard engine produced the following performance figures:
0-60 mph in 5.3 seconds.
0-100 mph in 11.9 seconds.
Figures were recorded from the very accurate Drift Box timer.
Any recommendations?,i have emailed 519Automotive from the website but no response from them,can anyone recommended a RS tuner in Lincolnshire or anywhere really if there good.

 

[mitch1503]

519Automotive has been VERY busy which will probably's be why you haven't received a reply yet but i'm sure you'll get a response in the next few days atleast

 

[mitch1503]

my 1st choice would be ITB's but if it was between the 2 you have mentioned it would be Supercharger

 

[Chi]

Charger for me

 

[Mad Fred]

519Automotive has been VERY busy which will probably's be why you haven't received a reply yet but i'm sure you'll get a response in the next few days atleast

Thanks for the reply Mitch,are 519 good with the reno's.This is my first 182,First Reno actually and after scouring the forums the main dealers dont seem to have a good name ,519 and a few others do but 519 is my nearest one.
What are ITB's btw?

 

[batesey]

I built a turbo for 2k and im in Lincoln, give me a PM if you want any advice, I do plan on building a kit to sell on in the next few months

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

Supercharged clios are torqless. ...


Turbos are loads for exciting!


Fact


Thanks

 

[Mad Fred]

I built a turbo for 2k and im in Lincoln, give me a PM if you want any advice, I do plan on building a kit to sell on in the next few months

How was the power delivery with the turbo?

 

[Mad Fred]

Supercharged clios are torqless. ...


Turbos are loads for exciting!


Fact


Thanks

Any figures with the turbo?

 

[BoatNonce]

Chip-mk1's turbo is a good example of what 8k will get you. 300bhp, LSD'ed rocket ship. And it is a rocket ship, even though it still has full interior lol.

 

[batesey]

How was the power delivery with the turbo?

Errm its great, obviously its not smooth like NA but the clio put's the power of a turbo down very well

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

Any figures with the turbo?

What would you like.

We have several with in the last 6 months

220
300
340
422
504

Lol

Drop me a line. Andy at clioturbo.co.uk

 

[r0ss172]

Having owned both supercharged and turbo charged cars I'd say turbo all the way. Superchargers are a bit flat, just feel like a bugger NA engine has been put under the bonnet where as a turbo is fun and a bit mental ;-)

Speak to Andyrg for advice/builds on turbo clios (look at his latest VAG 20vt transplant) he will set you right, he did all mine and is currently making a few more tweaks so il see 300bhp... Thread to follow

 

[bright]

If you can make it to the meet on Sunday, should be 2 turbos, an ITB car and an RS2 car there. And perhaps my lonely standard car lol

 

[Dan519]

519Automotive has been VERY busy which will probably's be why you haven't received a reply yet but i'm sure you'll get a response in the next few days atleast

I've not received any such email, which probably explains it more. Not sure why, but I've just had a good look and there's nothing there.

Don't understand the "torque-less" description of supercharging at all, it's just not true

 

[DannyR]

Supercharged as I've owned three supercharged 172's.

I would be heading north to have Paul at RSTuning doing it though. He knows what he's doing and will keep to a decent timescale.

 

[Kyle 86]

Turbo chatter & boost FTW!!

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

I'

Don't understand the "torque-less" description of supercharging at all, it's just not true

Thought you did mapping these days just look at the decent turbo conversions vs supercharged. ... :-D

 

[Dan519]

well comparing standard to supercharged, there's a pretty substantial torque difference

The curve is a different shape to using a turbo, but the delivery is smoother and less likely to break things (something you should be interested in Mr. Greer )

 

[domsclio182]

Supercharger.

 

[Cub.]

Chip-mk1's turbo is a good example of what 8k will get you. 300bhp, LSD'ed rocket ship. And it is a rocket ship, even though it still has full interior lol.

Chips will cost £11k if someone is building it for you. I know, as I spent all weds night chatting through the build with him and Mike from MWM. It's not just the turbo, ancillaries and forged bits, you need clutch, decent mapping, LSD and brakes. Luckily I have an LSD, but I was still looking at £10k. The reason chips turbo is so good, is not the top end figures, but the setup is good the power delivery is smooth and virtually like an N/A car. I hate badly set up turbos.

Nothing.....nothing....BBOOOOOSSSSSTTT....nothing. Chips is nothing like that, just pulls and pulls and pulls with great throttle control.

I am turbo'ing mine, but at that price, I'm doing it in stages.

OP - I'd try my best to get seat time in both a turbo'd and charged car. There are quite a few local to you, luckily! Either way, if you're doing it properly and can't do a lot of the work yourself it will be £££££, so have a long hard think. I'm doing mine at some point as I'm keeping mine long term. You won't get much of the outlay back if you sell it on.

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

well comparing standard to supercharged, there's a pretty substantial torque difference

The curve is a different shape to using a turbo, but the delivery is smoother and less likely to break things (something you should be interested in Mr. Greer )

Hahaha cheaky sod....

Sorry dan I was pisssed last night and being cheaky. I was meaning tu vs sc not to stock...

Graph looks pretty smooth admititly

Heheheh

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

Oh and id rather have a new gearbox every week that have no torque lol

 

[Andyman]

Been in a charged Clio and its foot down and your shooting forward at a rapid rate instantly. Very very drivable and excellent for a road car.

Never experienced a Clio turbo but are they drivable off boost? or are they typical turbo, wrong gear off boost and you've lost it

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

That all depends on how big the turbo is the megane td04 is on full boost by 2200rpm on a well flowing engine.

However yiu stick a massive blower on your obviously going to get lag..

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

Here is a td04

Spooool

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

Here is a stock td04

 

[Chip-mk1]

Turbo for me, if mapped correctly using a well featured ECU the amount of control that it gets you is unreal.

Supercharged manufacturer cars have always been rare for a reason, because turbo charging makes more sense IMHO.


I do like supercharged cars as well, they just never tend to make quite the numbers that a turbo does on the same engine based on ones I have mapped, presumably down to the higher parasitic losses. (although DONT fall for the "turbo is free power" line a lot of people pedal, there are still pumping loss increases which are akin to the crank drag on a supercharger all be it generally less so)


The other problem with superchargers really is that you have 2 options on type of charger essentially, you either try and pikey on something like a cheap mini cooper displacement type charger to do it on a budget and then its horrible at high rpm, or you go with a centrifgual type like a rotrex but they are fragile and expensive to replace when they go wrong.
With a turbo if you go for a plain bearing type they are mega reliable and they are only a few hundred quid to rebuild anyway.


Both make a LOT more sense than messing around trying to make N/A power out of such an asthmatic engine though if you are chasing some reasonable numbers (ie 300bhp ish which seems to sit very well with the clio chassis IME)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Oh and for recomendations on where to go, I would say MWM if you are south or RS Tuning if you are north, but as mentioned in this thread already to do the job properly is not cheap, its very easy to get the bill over 10K without being wasteful even going for a modest output like 300bhp or so.

Engine swap to a VAG turbo unit is another option that makes a LOT of sense.

 

[Chip-mk1]

PS

My best advice I can give you, assuming you are doing this for trackdays, based on my very long time being involved in building and mapping engines for turbo FWD trackday cars, is just aim for about 300bhp.

Its much easier to keep it all cooled well than if you go chasing big numbers, gearbox issues will be a lot less common, it will be more reliable and on track the percentage of time where you are actually going to use more power than that is very low, you are just talking the middle section of the straight really as when you first come out of a bend you wont be able to lay 450bhp down anyway, and then once you are straightened up once the novelty of the big acceleration wears off it really isnt anymore fun getting to 150mph than to 140mph, and it just means you have to break even sooner etc.
Sure more power WILL take a second or two off your laptimes but for trackdays that really doesnt matter and most of the time your pace will be hampered by traffic anyway.

And TBH even at 300bhp these cars are not slow, this is my car at around that power versus a BMW E46 M3 for example:




My engine would happily take another 100bhp+, I have a guy who's 400bhp+ corsa I map for him who runs an outfit making custom manifolds who would FOC knock me up a tubular manifold for a bigger turbo, my turbo is due a rebuild (previous owner of the turbo used a lot of antilag and launch on it on the old engine it used to be on!) so it would cost me only a few hundred quid extra to go bigger instead, and the only other mod I would need is a better intercooler and I could have over 400bhp instead of 300bhp, but I wont bother, I will just put it back exactly as it is now on a rebuilt turbo as it drives spot on and sometime you have to just accept that more power is going to bring you more in the way of increased problems than it will in terms of increased fun!

 

[domsclio182]

^ Is that not a meg lump Andy. I think if you want to go high boost then turbo will see much better figures, but even on a high boost supercharger set up you will still see 300 bhp + and 250 ft/lbs + which to be fair is plenty in a car weighing 1000 kg. Low boost turbo/supercharger set ups will see very similar figures. Its all about personal preference really, I went for a supercharger because I have owned lots of turbo cars and always wanted to try a supercharger. I think what ever you go for you will be more than happy. Would be more than happy to take you for a spin in mine if you go to CSS.

 

[WilkyWay]

High boost conversion with GT2860. Perfect for a Clio and a good 300hp setup. Done.

 

[r0ss172]

High boost conversion with GT2860. Perfect for a Clio and a good 300hp setup. Done.

+1 Exactly what Andy is doing for me Wilky ;-)

Evo looked to be going well at the ring btw, saw some of Andy's Videos!

 

[WilkyWay]

Yeah I know I had to wash all the PS fluid and oil off my drive after it was parked there perfect set up for a very fast road car though.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Wilkyway, agreed that the GT2860 is a cracking little turbo for a 2.0 engine.

Or even the GTX version if you do decide you want more power.

 

[Laine_16v]

Turbo + Proper closed loop boost control = win.

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

Yeah I know I had to wash all the PS fluid and oil off my drive after it was parked there perfect set up for a very fast road car though.

Sorry overflow car store!! the paddock was full

 

[Chip-mk1]

Turbo + Proper closed loop boost control = win.

With throttle input as a boost request value I assume you mean? As lots of ECU's do great boost control but only to set values (omex for example) rather than to what the user wants here and now.

I had full closed loop control with throttle input and different scaling in different gears on a friends mk2 astra that I mapped (850kg and over 400bhp so control was important) and that was pretty epic, but even just well mapped open loop control on a decent enough resolution of table which is what mine is on the Ph1 is still a massive massive world away form what most people think a turbo car drives like.

I like to be able to make decisions about boost as im driving on track, not while Im mapping in advance, so to me the throttle as boost control is the single most important factor in a turbo car. (especially a heavily grip limited one like a fwd hatch)

 

[r0ss172]

With throttle input as a boost request value I assume you mean? As lots of ECU's do great boost control but only to set values (omex for example) rather than to what the user wants here and now.

I had full closed loop control with throttle input and different scaling in different gears on a friends mk2 astra that I mapped (850kg and over 400bhp so control was important) and that was pretty epic, but even just well mapped open loop control on a decent enough resolution of table which is what mine is on the Ph1 is still a massive massive world away form what most people think a turbo car drives like.

I like to be able to make decisions about boost as im driving on track, not while Im mapping in advance, so to me the throttle as boost control is the single most important factor in a turbo car. (especially a heavily grip limited one like a fwd hatch)

Hoping to have mine mapped like this as i wont be running a Diff, so throttle boost control will be very helpful! pretty sure the GEN90 is capable of this....

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah without a diff its even more important.