Viper making my Clio 182 Slower?

[MRBILLYUK]

My maxogen cost £50

maxogen being the filter as opposed to the carbon kit

Thats what i'd buy if i were gettin a filter and just make a heat shield or an enclosure . Same filter as in the carbon box but a few hundred quid cheaper , lol ,

http://www.merlinmotorsport.com/index.php?cPath=1615_1618&osCsid=84002125c8f2a68b13af1b3112e94dfa

 

[MRBILLYUK]

Just a quick question sorta related to the viper / maxogen / other filter argument .

All these so called dogs b****cks filters are enclosed , to stop heat soak from the engine bay .

How come when you see the highly tuned Jap motors running silly bhp like 500 bhp or more they use the HKS mushroom filters and they never have em enclosed in any fancy air box of use any heat shields . They are just an open filter in the engine bay . You'd think they would have em enclosed , why don't they ? Anybody know ??

 

[G_F]

Their Jap, they are madder than a garden brush./


(nothin useful to add here)

 

[downs523]

what size for the above filter do i need for a 182??

 

[MRBILLYUK]

That size


http://www.merlinmotorsport.com/pro...d=173&osCsid=84002125c8f2a68b13af1b3112e94dfa

Samco 90* elbow .

http://www.merlinmotorsport.com/pro...=4689&osCsid=84002125c8f2a68b13af1b3112e94dfa

 

[Blue4Ever]

Don't suppose there is one in the right size for me? <<
Don't suppose anyone would know what size I would require?

 

[BenR]

When a car is on the RR with its bonnet open and a fan blasting straight into the un fed viper its obvious that its going to get colder air and better results than with the feed to the wheel arch, but your hardly gonna drive down the street with no bonnet on... are you ??? As far as I can make out, other than feeding the filter to the fog light/front grill, the wheel arch is the best place on the 1*2 to get a good feed. If you just point the feed to the filter its still going to be sucking in all the warm air trapped in the engine bay.

That is PRECISELY my point.

You net the gain as its a new clean filter and it has a nice cool air source.

Close the bonnet and put on the horrible air feeds and its not really the same.

Then you get the guys who start dreaming of ram air.

 

[BenR]

Just a quick question sorta related to the viper / maxogen / other filter argument .

All these so called dogs b****cks filters are enclosed , to stop heat soak from the engine bay .

How come when you see the highly tuned Jap motors running silly bhp like 500 bhp or more they use the HKS mushroom filters and they never have em enclosed in any fancy air box of use any heat shields . They are just an open filter in the engine bay . You'd think they would have em enclosed , why don't they ? Anybody know ??

HKS filters are total rubbish. But if you have ever been to japan you will soon realise their mentality. Brand name has everything to do with it. If its new or fancy or made by a big name manufacturer, they will use it, irrespective of the fact that its crap.

Plus, all their cars run turbos and intercoolers.

 

[en035]

no need to say more, perfect expert explanation.

There is a post saying that there was a 2 BHP loss when the viper is On.

Are you 100 % sure that this 2BHP is not within the accuracy range of the dyno. Even some back 2 back tests give different results. Where was this 2 BHP loss, within a certain rpm range or at peak power or what?

Viper is ok, not great and not the best.

Problems are:
- Tiny filter area, i can just get my fist inside. Sure its not paper so doesnt need as large a surface area, but compared to the maxogen, its about 40% less. If you look further, filter area on the 'sides' isnt utilised that much, so your left with the tiny tiny face on area where all the dirt gets trapped.
-If left dirty and dry, it WILL tear....and you cant replace the filter...major flaw.
-Lead into the filter housing when running ducting is...well, poor...no thought to flow stabilisation. The maxogen has thought into equal distribution and not inducing turbulance around the filter media.
-Long trunking required to feed it is convoluted and plays havoc with harmonics.

Its nets a gain when brand new, no trunking and bonnet open.

Maxogen is the best, imo on the market. Doesnt mean its THE best, but the best that is off the shelf available. And its not custom designed for the car, they have an airbox design that works well and they choose the applicable one to suit the flow requirement. Only flaw really is that its still warm where it draws its air in from.

 

[Ali]

That is PRECISELY my point.

You net the gain as its a new clean filter and it has a nice cool air source.

Close the bonnet and put on the horrible air feeds and its not really the same.

Then you get the guys who start dreaming of ram air.

Gaz, You'd prob run more power on a dyno with the bonnet closed. 100Mph or cold air into an open viper is a NO NO!!!!

 

[Neil G]

Just a quick question sorta related to the viper / maxogen / other filter argument .

All these so called dogs b****cks filters are enclosed , to stop heat soak from the engine bay .

How come when you see the highly tuned Jap motors running silly bhp like 500 bhp or more they use the HKS mushroom filters and they never have em enclosed in any fancy air box of use any heat shields . They are just an open filter in the engine bay . You'd think they would have em enclosed , why don't they ? Anybody know ??

Probably because the turbos need for air exceeds what the OE airbox can deliver.

Still see a lot of evos running closed air intake boxes...like the std airbox but with the cone inside so you get the best of both. Very expensive though..think they cost around the £500 mark.

Have to agree with you on HKS/Blitz stuff...they have been proven to be not the best filters for actually keeping dirt out of your engine.

 

[BenR]

no need to say more, perfect expert explanation.

There is a post saying that there was a 2 BHP loss when the viper is On.

Are you 100 % sure that this 2BHP is not within the accuracy range of the dyno. Even some back 2 back tests give different results. Where was this 2 BHP loss, within a certain rpm range or at peak power or what?

Yes, roller resolution is a factor, and in most cases 2bhp is a typical acceptable leeway between 'identicle' runs.

But hey, there is no 'absolute' measurement around, so we do the best with what we can.

 

[howie p]

could you use something like the above picture but use bends and pipe to lower an open filter behind the bumper, further away from the engine?

 

[BenR]

you can, but you 'might' affect the torque curve through altered harmonics.

 

[Lagerlout]

I believe the K&N Typhoon does something similar. Not entirely sure how effective it is, but there's a lot of kinks and bends disturbing the flow of air on its way into the engine.

Ben will tell you whether that's a good thing or not. lol.

 

[BenR]

Typically well sized piping that is the same size of the TB OD is more than sufficient, bends so long as they are made well, also do not really affect things.

The typhoon doesnt look like too bad a solution, would like to try one.

That style of intake is highly effective on 10,000rpm hondas.

 

[Lagerlout]

Cool.

Nick Hill questioned why the intake of the ITG Maxogen trumpet was smaller than the TB OD.....

Speaking of which, I need to sort a cold air feed out for mine.

 

[BenR]

The efficiency of a hole is greatly affected by the design of the lead in and taper behind. Typically following the shape of a venturi with a showllow taper downstream and a bell mouth radii entry.

With a hole, flow is all about reducing any pressure differential across the hole. A bare pipe cut end flows less because air is trying to enter at a greater velocity from the sides and pinches the middle of the pipes flow, effectively reducing the size of the hole by 40% or so.

You should see what the FIA GT cars run in terms of restrictor holes, some are as small as 28-32mm and they still pelt out stupid HP, but the hole has no common factors to a 'hole' apart from the fact that a cork bung will fit in both orifaces.

In the maxogen case, the OD isnt a big factor since the actual butterfly OD is substantially smaller, with a taper lead in and a big fat thick rim.

 

[rmccardal]

AngelWorks Technologies has the power.

 

[Neil G]

Interesting stuff

 

[Ali]

^Acho that....Although lets just leave the tuning to Ben and not try it ourselves! haha.

 

[Englebert]

Ben is a right uber geek. I think my head has exploded!

 

[Ali]

Ben copy and pasted that from:

"My first Engine" - ABC book for 3yrs+

LOL :clown:

 

[Lagerlout]

I love it when he gets technical.

I just wish I could get my head round what he's trying to say. lol. When is a hole not a hole? lol.

Quite frankly, the intracacies of all this flow business is a bit mind boggling. I'm all for leaving it to Ben. lol.

 

[Englebert]

Want to see my hole? It's pretty restrictive at the moment...

 

[Jamie _Swales]

Iv amended my car details to reflect the loss of power




<<

 

[makavelli]

Iv amended my car details to reflect the loss of power




<<

lol

 

[Ali]

That would be about the first 182 to run voer 180Bhp.....Most are around the 178 mark.

 

[clidge]

sorry to start this thread again but do they make a typhoon for the mk2 172 as i thought they only did one for the mk1? plus how does hill powers induction kit fair with the above cheers

 

[Lam7r]

Not sure about hillpowers, would recommend their silicone elbow tho.

The thypoon was discussed not long ago mate, do a search on it but the general line from K&N was it wont fit, however most are 99% sure it will when the acoustic valve is removed.

Hope that helps

 

[clidge]

cheers mate thanks for that i was mulling over a viper but defo not getting one now for the money it seems the results are not confirmed 100% as being positive or negative so i may go the hillpower route as he knows his stuff the itg would be amazing but the price is so very steap!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mr RSi]

hi , i was just about to order a viper for my rsi until i read this . so would it be a bad idea too buy one then ? if so , what would you recommed ?

 

[Alan]

Vipers aren't that good imo....i had one on my 182 for a total for 16 hours then sold it on...

Lost a good bit of torque...so changed back to the itg panel filter in the standard box...

If you want an induction kit the only one thats worth having is the itg maxogen or like i said the itg panel filter in the standard box..

Al.