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Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Twin scroll turbo so one wastegate for each scroll on the turbo, with 2x exhaust ports feeding each side. In theory one large gate would work but thats how Nortech set it up.
It does spool quite fast for a low comp engine and large turbo, so overall it works decent. All in around 3800rpm from memory. Boost control is rock solid hits whatever level its set at, and holds it right to the 7800rpm rev limiter.
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Quick wash before work this morning. It wasnt really mucky being honest, but any excuse to use my new di resin water filter 
In other news, it has a date booked in very soon to see a man about some more horses. Hopefully the power gods will anlign and we will see a good figure this time🤞
In other news, it has a date booked in very soon to see a man about some more horses. Hopefully the power gods will anlign and we will see a good figure this time🤞
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Done a bit on this yesterday.
Its in for mapping this week and nothing like a good short deadline to get projects moving. Made a start trying to get a couple of jobs done that ive put off for ages. These are non essential/nice to have so doesnt really matter if completed or not but be nice.
Wheel speed. I need vss to work on driven wheels for boost by gear. Dont want to tap into abs, actually not sure if it works but no light on dash so whatever, leave it be..
Brainstorming last week on how to fit a hall sensor to read off abs ring and dug a spare hub out to mock up. There is 3 random holes on the 182 hubs for whatever reason, maybe they planned on fitting a s**t guard behind disc at one point. These look like holes full of rust but actually m6 threaded when you look closely. Chased the hole out with a tap, one l shaped bracket made and it looks like a goer.
Cleaned up the setop and transferred to the car.
Bit of wiring.
Ran the car up on axle stands. Did it read? Did it f**k😅 messed about with pullup settings no joy.
After a bit of digging id ordered the wrong sensor, this is supposed to be 2wire hall (i think its reluctor anyway) and requires a magnet installed to read off. Prob could make it work if i moved sensor/installed magnets.
Ive ordered a 3 wire hall sensor that doesnt need magnet and will read off ferrous toothed ring to replace. Not holding my breath as feel like abs ring may have too many teeth but we will see. The legwork is done now so its simply swap out sensor and fit new one adding a 12v supply wire.
One bonus is i got a shorter sensor so more clearance on rcl kit as the current one is tight. I done a bit of sniffing round and the recommended sensors are the cherry red ones at £80+ from most places. It turns out its just a bog standard zf hall sensor that Rs components sell for £30ish. So not too bothered if it doesnt work.
Took it out for a quick run as not moved in weeks. All good nothing to report.
Its in for mapping this week and nothing like a good short deadline to get projects moving. Made a start trying to get a couple of jobs done that ive put off for ages. These are non essential/nice to have so doesnt really matter if completed or not but be nice.
Wheel speed. I need vss to work on driven wheels for boost by gear. Dont want to tap into abs, actually not sure if it works but no light on dash so whatever, leave it be..
Brainstorming last week on how to fit a hall sensor to read off abs ring and dug a spare hub out to mock up. There is 3 random holes on the 182 hubs for whatever reason, maybe they planned on fitting a s**t guard behind disc at one point. These look like holes full of rust but actually m6 threaded when you look closely. Chased the hole out with a tap, one l shaped bracket made and it looks like a goer.
Cleaned up the setop and transferred to the car.
Bit of wiring.
Ran the car up on axle stands. Did it read? Did it f**k😅 messed about with pullup settings no joy.
After a bit of digging id ordered the wrong sensor, this is supposed to be 2wire hall (i think its reluctor anyway) and requires a magnet installed to read off. Prob could make it work if i moved sensor/installed magnets.
Ive ordered a 3 wire hall sensor that doesnt need magnet and will read off ferrous toothed ring to replace. Not holding my breath as feel like abs ring may have too many teeth but we will see. The legwork is done now so its simply swap out sensor and fit new one adding a 12v supply wire.
One bonus is i got a shorter sensor so more clearance on rcl kit as the current one is tight. I done a bit of sniffing round and the recommended sensors are the cherry red ones at £80+ from most places. It turns out its just a bog standard zf hall sensor that Rs components sell for £30ish. So not too bothered if it doesnt work.
Took it out for a quick run as not moved in weeks. All good nothing to report.
Adey.
ClioSport Club Member
whats the plan for the mapping, time to go balls out and start pushing things or just a little tidy up?
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Full send if fuel system allows mate, All in. Max out the turbo if all goes well. Tidy up a few bits as flywheel is lighter etc.
Ive advised Chris that we might need to do some fuel system diag as ive gone as far as i can with it really.
Adey.
ClioSport Club Member
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Update
ZF gear tooth speed sensor arrived today (part no GS100701). This is the same sensor ive seen for £70 -100 on a few tuner places, where in reality its £30 from Rs Components.
With weather being good and curious to see if it was a goer, i freed a couple of hours up this afternoon to fit it to the Trophy.
It was a relatively easy fit as straight into my homemade bracket. Small amount of extra wiring as 3 wire. The sensor is rated from 5v to 24v dc. I planned on wiring 12v but without butchering more wiring in fusebox for an ign live, i decided to give it a go on the ecu sensor 5v circuit, using sensor earth on ecu and vss pin.
The spec sheet says give it a 1k pullup at 5v and ecumaster has that selectable on the ecu so no adding external pullup resistors.
I was not really confident this would work on the 182 abs ring, as the spec sheet has minimum specs for tooth height, gap etc and the 182 abs ring is a fair bit smaller than suggested.
With the send it, it will either read or not approach, i fired the car up with front end on axle stands and ran it up in gear. It only reported vss frequency on the logs straight away so was a goer.
Initially it said aomething daft like 180kmh at 20mph, messed about with the frequency divider setting it at 4, and fine tuning with the speed ratio i managed to get it to read about c**k on with oem speedo in kmh of course as metric only.
Took it out and with the mrs driving, i set up the gear calculations so the ecu knows what gear we are in. This is done by viewing the gear ratio log, and inputting the average of the numbers logged on each step when in gear as seen below in green.
As no gear sensor on the box, gear selection is calculated by rpm & wheel speed (might be wrong but im fairly confident). Anyway it appears to work well, with tunerview actually logging gear selected for first time ever. Prob still needs a little tweak, im sure Chris will fine tune it if needs be.
Vss should add a few nice features. Oem stuff like throttle strategies for increased idle when rolling up to junctions out of gear. Possibly throttle blipper but might not work without gear sensor.
The spicey stuff like boost by gear, rolling anti lag, launch etc should work though. With the f4r being piss weak ill prob not use the latter two but boost by gear will be superb.
ZF gear tooth speed sensor arrived today (part no GS100701). This is the same sensor ive seen for £70 -100 on a few tuner places, where in reality its £30 from Rs Components.
With weather being good and curious to see if it was a goer, i freed a couple of hours up this afternoon to fit it to the Trophy.
It was a relatively easy fit as straight into my homemade bracket. Small amount of extra wiring as 3 wire. The sensor is rated from 5v to 24v dc. I planned on wiring 12v but without butchering more wiring in fusebox for an ign live, i decided to give it a go on the ecu sensor 5v circuit, using sensor earth on ecu and vss pin.
The spec sheet says give it a 1k pullup at 5v and ecumaster has that selectable on the ecu so no adding external pullup resistors.
I was not really confident this would work on the 182 abs ring, as the spec sheet has minimum specs for tooth height, gap etc and the 182 abs ring is a fair bit smaller than suggested.
With the send it, it will either read or not approach, i fired the car up with front end on axle stands and ran it up in gear. It only reported vss frequency on the logs straight away so was a goer.
Initially it said aomething daft like 180kmh at 20mph, messed about with the frequency divider setting it at 4, and fine tuning with the speed ratio i managed to get it to read about c**k on with oem speedo in kmh of course as metric only.
Took it out and with the mrs driving, i set up the gear calculations so the ecu knows what gear we are in. This is done by viewing the gear ratio log, and inputting the average of the numbers logged on each step when in gear as seen below in green.
As no gear sensor on the box, gear selection is calculated by rpm & wheel speed (might be wrong but im fairly confident). Anyway it appears to work well, with tunerview actually logging gear selected for first time ever. Prob still needs a little tweak, im sure Chris will fine tune it if needs be.
Vss should add a few nice features. Oem stuff like throttle strategies for increased idle when rolling up to junctions out of gear. Possibly throttle blipper but might not work without gear sensor.
The spicey stuff like boost by gear, rolling anti lag, launch etc should work though. With the f4r being piss weak ill prob not use the latter two but boost by gear will be superb.
Speedo Gonzales
ClioSport Club Member
The brain of Brigsy!!!
I swear every car you build is better than what these 'specialists' produce. Can't wait to see this sending c***s to Gapistan! 😂
I swear every car you build is better than what these 'specialists' produce. Can't wait to see this sending c***s to Gapistan! 😂
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Cheers mate. Just a have a go hero i guess. Think about the issues and usually get a resolution several months later 😁
Cheers mate. Getting there slowly, i really hope the fuel system works this time round. Itll be nice and linear, lay the power down in a fashion and fu k off into the sunset if all works out well. None of this wheelspin/constant on the limiter not moving bollox.
Seen so much crap coming from specialists recently. It seems that a lot are out of their comfort zone doing anything more than basic repairs, nevermind knocking up a small custom part. I personally dont think you can own a car like this and not work on it yourself, all i can imagine is massive specialist billsand dissapointment as issues notfully resolved.
If this engine was a little bit more disposable, id defo map this myself. Just cant be arsed with rebuilding it if i got it wrong, as it will take months to get it sorted.
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Small update
Knocked up a small loom to add a couple more switches on the ecumaster canbus switchboard today in the sacrificial dash panel. Daft hours work.
Both setup in ecu and working. Not sure what to use them for yet. Poss sport throttle map and linear for street. Maybe rolling anti lag (Danger to manifold?!)
If none of the above ill be boring and hook up cruise on it. We will see.
Knocked up a small loom to add a couple more switches on the ecumaster canbus switchboard today in the sacrificial dash panel. Daft hours work.
Both setup in ecu and working. Not sure what to use them for yet. Poss sport throttle map and linear for street. Maybe rolling anti lag (Danger to manifold?!)
If none of the above ill be boring and hook up cruise on it. We will see.
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Updates.
Apoligies long as f**k - TLDR - looks pretty but still not mapped/doesnt work right.
Trip down to EfiParts on Sat for a pm dyno/mapping slot. Worst weather possible, of course! Non stop torrential rain..i honestly didnt feel like going on the morning as i hate driving this in the rain. Not because im precious/scared of rain as the car is well protected from the elements, its the fact its got semi slicks on, plate diff etc. Basically constant correction of steering so you cannot relax. Just not fun to drive unless dry. s**t slow driving and aquaplaning all over the place when hitting ruts on dual carriageways.
As most people in the uk cant acutually drive, the journey took 4 hours and just stop start traffic.
Bit of chav on to keep alert. Forget the soundsystem is alright in this with alpine stereo, amp and focal components.
Twin plate clutch and snappy throttle for miles and miles. Painful.
Arrived at Efi just in time for 330pm slot. Lashing down. Orange clio as backup full of tools and other s**t that might be useful.
A nice supercharged 197 was being finished off so short wait and strapped on.
Single roll incase it works.
Discussed with Chris the current issues with the setup, and what i had done to attempt to resolve this, but needed more help as fuel map needed work/needed to be run in a controlled enviroment to log and change parts. So this was essentially a diagnostics session in some respects if the issues could not be resolved on the day.
To recap it was going horribly lean for a split second around 64/6500 rpm which was almost impossible to tune out last time, and things were initially pointing to the fuel system. I had changed fuel pump to aem 400lph which had richened the fuelling up a point across the mid range.
The idle/low down fuelling also needed attention due to flywheel and clutch change for lighter twin plate setup. We agreed to sort this first, then start swapping parts coming back to the mid range fuel map later on.
On with the tuning.
First run up and the fuelling is lean at the top. It was noted fuel pressure was rock solid and did not drop off so that was not an issue.
We then tried the below to see if the fuelling would change.
1. To prove the fuel resonance theory, i then fitted an extra meter of rubber fuel line on the end of the fuel rail, leading to the fuel pressure regulator inlet. Essentially moving the regulator 1mtr away and rubber to dampen the pulsing.
This done nothing unfortunately. Proving not a resonance issue. Reverted back to old setup to remove pikey 1mtr coiled up fuel line.
2. Software changes. We looked at the datalogs and nothing was jumping out. All tables/settings in ecu were checked and nothing untoward that would cause the fuelling to lean off.
All we could see was egts on cyl 3 & 4 were spiking higher than cyl 1 & 2 before 6400 rpm issue the dropping after this, indicating lean then not lean on that pair. Egt sensors are very slow to respond. To rule out wiring, and voltage drop to the injectors we swapped the injector plugs around to opposite cylinders and changed the software to suit.
Again no real change. Reverted back to old setup.
Also changed injection angle and a few tricks in the software. No real change.
3. As we were starting to clutch at straws, we discussed the possibility of something on the piss with the injectors. Chris has the 980cc bosch injectors in stock so a new set were selected and tested on ansu machine. I installed them, done a run and the fuel curve did change slightly but still same issue. We tested my injectors in the ansu machine, and mine flowed 5% better than the ones off the shelf and were all bang on flow matched, so basically the changes were due to mine being slightly better if anything.
So it was off with the fuel rail again and reinstall original injectors. The pressure falls off instantly but this time i pulled the rail and ended up covered in fuel. Nice.
4. Disconnected the vvt and done a run to see if that was causing issues. No joy, it was pig rich in the mid range losing power everywhere as expected and still similar issues.
5. Fudge the ve fuel map to get over 6500rpm to see if any more data would be seen as its looking like mechanical issue. A few runs were done monitoring egt/increasing the v.e in the cells required and trying to trim cylinders 3&4. The v.e is nice and smooth around 106, and you literally have to ramp it up to a large peak of 156 to get over this lean spot and then drop the ve back down again towards the limiter as it is then stupidly rich. Its not right as it still goes slightly lean, then rich as fook.
With a pull to 7800rpm limiter we made 260/270ish hp at 7psi but again the fuel curve was s**t. You can see it holds boost rock solid to the limiter and the power curve is there or there abouts, so does not indicate any valve float issues..which it should not have anyway with supertech double valve springs and 7psi boost.
5. Final thing we tried was changing ecu to.my spare ecumaster black. This was to rule out any funky injector driver issues. Fitted, map flashed on and no change.
Vid of one of the many pulls done.
To sum it up, we ruled out quite a few things but no definitive answer over 4 hours on the dyno. Massive thanks to Chris as usual for his patience with this one. He said hes never had this issue before on one of these.
Honestly, not 100% sure where to go next. Its pointing at mechanical issues..engine runs lovely typically.
Cams in it are a bit lairy for turbo. 197 inlet/182 exhaust. Chris has tuned a similar setup and it worked though.
All i can think is, it is too much cam overlap at that rpm point for whatever reason causing potential reversion issues. With egt's pointing towards cyl 3 & 4 this is also on the longer runners on the manifold as its unequal length due to how nortech made it. We are unsure if the extra runner length is an issue or not and its causing the issue. But again you see allsorts of s**t exhaust manifolds working without similar issues. Hopefully not the manifold as it will be painful to change the design.
Another thing that could be considered is the inlet. We dont think this is an issue, as its a basic square box centre fed with trumpets in, no tapered design etc. Again any shitty inlets work usually.
Prob pull cylinder head off this winter and see if i can spot anything. Change cams to 182 inlet and exhaust as i can verify they work.
Thoughts welcome as usual. Thanks for reading.
Apoligies long as f**k - TLDR - looks pretty but still not mapped/doesnt work right.
Trip down to EfiParts on Sat for a pm dyno/mapping slot. Worst weather possible, of course! Non stop torrential rain..i honestly didnt feel like going on the morning as i hate driving this in the rain. Not because im precious/scared of rain as the car is well protected from the elements, its the fact its got semi slicks on, plate diff etc. Basically constant correction of steering so you cannot relax. Just not fun to drive unless dry. s**t slow driving and aquaplaning all over the place when hitting ruts on dual carriageways.
As most people in the uk cant acutually drive, the journey took 4 hours and just stop start traffic.
Bit of chav on to keep alert. Forget the soundsystem is alright in this with alpine stereo, amp and focal components.
Twin plate clutch and snappy throttle for miles and miles. Painful.
Arrived at Efi just in time for 330pm slot. Lashing down. Orange clio as backup full of tools and other s**t that might be useful.
A nice supercharged 197 was being finished off so short wait and strapped on.
Single roll incase it works.
Discussed with Chris the current issues with the setup, and what i had done to attempt to resolve this, but needed more help as fuel map needed work/needed to be run in a controlled enviroment to log and change parts. So this was essentially a diagnostics session in some respects if the issues could not be resolved on the day.
To recap it was going horribly lean for a split second around 64/6500 rpm which was almost impossible to tune out last time, and things were initially pointing to the fuel system. I had changed fuel pump to aem 400lph which had richened the fuelling up a point across the mid range.
The idle/low down fuelling also needed attention due to flywheel and clutch change for lighter twin plate setup. We agreed to sort this first, then start swapping parts coming back to the mid range fuel map later on.
On with the tuning.
First run up and the fuelling is lean at the top. It was noted fuel pressure was rock solid and did not drop off so that was not an issue.
We then tried the below to see if the fuelling would change.
1. To prove the fuel resonance theory, i then fitted an extra meter of rubber fuel line on the end of the fuel rail, leading to the fuel pressure regulator inlet. Essentially moving the regulator 1mtr away and rubber to dampen the pulsing.
This done nothing unfortunately. Proving not a resonance issue. Reverted back to old setup to remove pikey 1mtr coiled up fuel line.
2. Software changes. We looked at the datalogs and nothing was jumping out. All tables/settings in ecu were checked and nothing untoward that would cause the fuelling to lean off.
All we could see was egts on cyl 3 & 4 were spiking higher than cyl 1 & 2 before 6400 rpm issue the dropping after this, indicating lean then not lean on that pair. Egt sensors are very slow to respond. To rule out wiring, and voltage drop to the injectors we swapped the injector plugs around to opposite cylinders and changed the software to suit.
Again no real change. Reverted back to old setup.
Also changed injection angle and a few tricks in the software. No real change.
3. As we were starting to clutch at straws, we discussed the possibility of something on the piss with the injectors. Chris has the 980cc bosch injectors in stock so a new set were selected and tested on ansu machine. I installed them, done a run and the fuel curve did change slightly but still same issue. We tested my injectors in the ansu machine, and mine flowed 5% better than the ones off the shelf and were all bang on flow matched, so basically the changes were due to mine being slightly better if anything.
So it was off with the fuel rail again and reinstall original injectors. The pressure falls off instantly but this time i pulled the rail and ended up covered in fuel. Nice.
4. Disconnected the vvt and done a run to see if that was causing issues. No joy, it was pig rich in the mid range losing power everywhere as expected and still similar issues.
5. Fudge the ve fuel map to get over 6500rpm to see if any more data would be seen as its looking like mechanical issue. A few runs were done monitoring egt/increasing the v.e in the cells required and trying to trim cylinders 3&4. The v.e is nice and smooth around 106, and you literally have to ramp it up to a large peak of 156 to get over this lean spot and then drop the ve back down again towards the limiter as it is then stupidly rich. Its not right as it still goes slightly lean, then rich as fook.
With a pull to 7800rpm limiter we made 260/270ish hp at 7psi but again the fuel curve was s**t. You can see it holds boost rock solid to the limiter and the power curve is there or there abouts, so does not indicate any valve float issues..which it should not have anyway with supertech double valve springs and 7psi boost.
5. Final thing we tried was changing ecu to.my spare ecumaster black. This was to rule out any funky injector driver issues. Fitted, map flashed on and no change.
Vid of one of the many pulls done.
To sum it up, we ruled out quite a few things but no definitive answer over 4 hours on the dyno. Massive thanks to Chris as usual for his patience with this one. He said hes never had this issue before on one of these.
Honestly, not 100% sure where to go next. Its pointing at mechanical issues..engine runs lovely typically.
Cams in it are a bit lairy for turbo. 197 inlet/182 exhaust. Chris has tuned a similar setup and it worked though.
All i can think is, it is too much cam overlap at that rpm point for whatever reason causing potential reversion issues. With egt's pointing towards cyl 3 & 4 this is also on the longer runners on the manifold as its unequal length due to how nortech made it. We are unsure if the extra runner length is an issue or not and its causing the issue. But again you see allsorts of s**t exhaust manifolds working without similar issues. Hopefully not the manifold as it will be painful to change the design.
Another thing that could be considered is the inlet. We dont think this is an issue, as its a basic square box centre fed with trumpets in, no tapered design etc. Again any shitty inlets work usually.
Prob pull cylinder head off this winter and see if i can spot anything. Change cams to 182 inlet and exhaust as i can verify they work.
Thoughts welcome as usual. Thanks for reading.
Mr Trailer Man
ClioSport Club Member
Bit of a nightmare mate.
If you and Chris can't figure it out, no one can 😂
If you and Chris can't figure it out, no one can 😂
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Ill get it resolved eventually mate, hopefully😂
Brainstorming whats changed on it since Haswell had it.
Basically engine is the same apart from headwork, different valves, different valve springs, cam's and thinner headgasket to raise the cr which is still low around 8.
Head is ported and has oversized supertech valves and supertech double valve springs. Amac modded the valves taking a bit off the head diameter as they werent happy with fitment without larger valve seats, so they are approx in the middle at a guess.
Previously it had 182 inlet cam, and 197 exhaust cam, Retimed to mirror a kelford 272 setup. Worked but not as good as anticipated with agressive power band. Haswell wanted to try the wilder inlet cam on this build with the milder exhaust cam to restore midrange power iirc.
Apart from that its had an ecu upgrade and different injectors as the old injectors were knackered.
Adey.
ClioSport Club Member
I'm not sure where id go with this, if I wasn't pulling the head id try set of meg or 1*2 sticks in there to rule out a cam issue.
Curious if something is going on with the the valves still, maybe a sealing issue after you have mentioned them being modified to fit the head.
Really hope you get this sorted though.
Have you got copies of any of the old plots? curious if there was something already going on at a similar rpm that may have been masked previously during mapping.
Curious if something is going on with the the valves still, maybe a sealing issue after you have mentioned them being modified to fit the head.
Really hope you get this sorted though.
Have you got copies of any of the old plots? curious if there was something already going on at a similar rpm that may have been masked previously during mapping.
Mr Trailer Man
ClioSport Club Member
Tried a leakdown to test for valve leakage?
Speedo Gonzales
ClioSport Club Member
What was the initial reason for the 197 inlet cam?
Big boost meg engines swap to 182 cams. This post does feel like I'm telling a bloke to such eggs though since you're the mad b*****d scientist when it comes to boosted Renaults🤣🤣
Big boost meg engines swap to 182 cams. This post does feel like I'm telling a bloke to such eggs though since you're the mad b*****d scientist when it comes to boosted Renaults🤣🤣
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Its got to be something simple. I will drop a 182 inlet cam in over winter, needs cambelt doing next year anyway. Need to mod the 182 inlet for a trigger wheel for cam sensor, same as the kangoo.
Im curious about the double valve springs, i.e lack of valve control at that rpm for whatever reason. Ive been told they work at low or high boost without issue though so in theory they should be ok. Certainly stronger than oem 172 springs that work ok.
With more boost pressure, the issue went up a few rpm when it was first on the dyno. Not sure what that points to though.
Ill dig the old graphs out, im also interested to see if its been tuned around in the past. I had the old ecu with the 440hp map on until last week so could have looked at that😬
Not yet but will have a look. I think it runs too well overall but never say never. Amac whondone the head are good though, so id imagine it should be ok. I checked the head they done on my kangoo and it was superb.
Haswell had the idea of more cylinder fill so went for the wilder 197 inlet. I didnt build this engine so rolled with it.
I might be wrong but imo the 197 inlet cam is a bit wild, even 182 cams are up there for turbo but they seem to work well. Low overlap at lca, high lift always works on turbo cars.
Ive not looked into how this all works, ill run a program i have with details in later to see how the current setup compares to 182.
Fooking ballache. Might be poss to dial it out adjusting cam timing but unsure as not looked at the data. Also right carry on as you know to custom time these cams. Its like back in the day when i used to be dialling in cam timing on the r5's with mixed success
Last edited:
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
This is the old afr graph showing the issue move at 14psi.
Exhaust manifold pics for ref..note longer runners on cyl 3 & 4 where egts spike briefly. Cylinders 1/4 & 2/3 are paired for twin scroll so assume no gate/backpressure issues and boost holds rock solid.
Exhaust manifold pics for ref..note longer runners on cyl 3 & 4 where egts spike briefly. Cylinders 1/4 & 2/3 are paired for twin scroll so assume no gate/backpressure issues and boost holds rock solid.
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
Do you run the full vvt inlet on this?
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
I do indeed, 197 vvt so full 40 deg on inlet. We ran it up with solenoid disconnected and no difference up top.
I know Haswell ran 182 vvt on this with 182 inlet cam, 197 exhaust cam. He said when full 16deg was activated on that setup it spooled later and lost power, bizarelly. To quote below.
"In theory they should be a great combo, they are almost identical to Kelford 272's what the EVO boys use in their 600bhp cars. I've advanced the exhaust cam to reduce the overlap, but it's still quite a bit compared to most turbo cams. Anyway the results are disappointing, with the VVT on the overlap is so bad that it increases spool time by 1000rpm and I lose loads of midrange torque. Very disappointing but there's not many people tinkering on at this level and I figured it was worth exploring."
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
Let me contact a mate of mine and see if he’s happy to go through some stuff with you. He’s a very switched on fella when it comes to all this kinda thing. 👍🏻
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Cheers mate, much appreciated. I have tons of ecumaster logs here from mapping too.
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
I’ve spoken to him and after a brief description of what’s happening, he said immediately - valve float. Regardless of what valve springs you’re running, if they’re not installed to the correct fitted height, you lose spring poundage quite dramatically.
I mentioned the lean, then straight to rich too and he came back with this:
‘Valve float is my immediate response Mark! It's one of those things that corrupts air fuel numbers in a window between 5500 and 7k and then passes as the engine/ turbo influence airflow volumes.’
He also mentioned the fuel system, but I said you’ve pretty much ruled that out of the equation now.
Let me know if you want to get in touch with him, and I’ll pm you his details. Trust me, he’s mustard at this.
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Excellent cheers for doing some digging mate. I was unsure how valve float influenced afr - Ive read a couple of posts stating similar issues but on different engines and it has also pointed to not enough spring pressure or fitted incorrectly. I guess lack of valve control at that rpm will totally f**k it up especially with the cam overlap.
Haswell bought a built head 2nd hand at £££ when building this. The head had the supertech valves and double springs fitted. It was off a high power n/a build, the head had damaged cam journals so was scrapped.
The valves and springs were transferred to a new head built by Amac. I know it has some custom valve spring shims made up, same as Amac done to mine. I supplied the data with my springs so not had issues, but again if they had incorrect data for fitted height, it would never work.
I know the catcams springs work OK so ill change for them.
Whats your thoughts on current cam setup. Chris said he tuned a high powered f4r with same cams and it worked great. Mine looks like it will do the numbers. I guess it wouldnt be too big a job swapping cams in situ.
Haswell bought a built head 2nd hand at £££ when building this. The head had the supertech valves and double springs fitted. It was off a high power n/a build, the head had damaged cam journals so was scrapped.
The valves and springs were transferred to a new head built by Amac. I know it has some custom valve spring shims made up, same as Amac done to mine. I supplied the data with my springs so not had issues, but again if they had incorrect data for fitted height, it would never work.
I know the catcams springs work OK so ill change for them.
Whats your thoughts on current cam setup. Chris said he tuned a high powered f4r with same cams and it worked great. Mine looks like it will do the numbers. I guess it wouldnt be too big a job swapping cams in situ.
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
No problem at all mate. Gotta be honest, as soon as I read your latest update and you mentioned the issues with the valves, I was on my way down the valve float route myself.
Cams can be very temperamental as not every engine responds the same - so what works for the Evo boys, won’t necessarily work for the f4r.
I think at this point, I’ll pm you with my mates details so you can have a chat with him. He will be able to give you some pointers and good advice. He would potentially be able to carry out some of the work for you should you choose to have the head reworked.
He’s been doing engines with silly bhp for a long time now, and he’s very well regarded. 👍🏻
Yarp
ClioSport Club Member
182 Turbo, E46 M3
I can offer you a standard 182 head to use if you want one to test with. Couple of T&Cs through - first, it’s still attached so you need to remove it yourself. 2nd - you’ll have to put it all back together again nicely with the Meg pistons in there too 🤣🤣.
Hope you get it sorted though. You couldn’t have been any more thorough with the testing. I’d have given up well before now and set the rev limit at 3rpm below where the issue happens and been done with it 😂
Hope you get it sorted though. You couldn’t have been any more thorough with the testing. I’d have given up well before now and set the rev limit at 3rpm below where the issue happens and been done with it 😂
Brigsy
ClioSport Club Member
T.Turbo
Cheers mate. We will get there eventually.
I considered taking the modified 197 head off my kangoo briefly to fit for testing. Soon changed mind as that would make 2x broken f4r's 😅
Forgot to add washed it on Sunday morning. Quick acf50 over the bare alloy parts and rcl kit.
