172 Cup Hillclimb / Sprint Car

[Mr Burns]

I know Paul, my mate Aaron races with him.

 

[jp_lcr]

All sorted, yeah Paul said he knew you, invited us to an evening at Donnington if I can make it said he'd take us out for a few laps in race MX5 and go out with me in Clio for a few tips. Was showing his MX5 race times vs the Cup Racer they have and MX5 is quicker, a very good salesman for how good MX5s can be, nice bloke.

Didnt discuss exact numbers but said he'd setup as good as it could be on stock suspension to reduce understeer, with slight toe in front and slight toe out on rear, really feels different on way home, turn in sharper and little bit more lively as weight transfers, looking forward to next race.

 

[Armchairracer]

I replace my struts and rear dampers every other year, it's daft not to at the price they are. I've got a supply in readiness for the day that Renault stops selling them! You can change the rears without even taking the wheels off...

Interesting to know that the springs are no longer available. Have you tried KTec? Their parts chap seems able to get things from France that are no longer available through UK dealers.

The SC regs are a bit tricky in terms of replacement parts. It's surprising how quickly people can become very competitive and willing to challenge stuff if someone in the class is winning with a suspect car. A bloke in my (Welsh) championship last year turned up with Ohlins coilovers on his 'standard' MX5, but he was so far off the pace we all took the piss rather than crying to the stewards. Not sure how I'd feel if I was beaten by someone with Eibach springs though; the Cup understeers a bit too much for my liking but it is what it is and I live with it... don't know whether different springs would address that but I think it's only natural to feel a bit peeved if you're beaten by someone with mods, however small.

This is the problem with S1/ SB or any other standard production category..there is always suspicions and whispers about cheating etc ..
That's why a few championships wont entertain it ..Midland have recently introduced it but were sceptical ..The problem with the Clios is that standard parts will be coming obsolete or hard to find so it's my guess that they ( msa , or whatever they called now ) , will raise the year for standard cars to say 2006 say ..to outlaw standard 172/182 clio in standard form ..just for that very reason of rare standard parts and force them into modified , just as they did with the peugeot 205s ..imo , clios are very hard to get better than Renault sport designed them without spending big money ..that's the point of the standard category, any improvements should be with the driver and not how big your wallet is or your engineering nouce..
For instance , I went nearly 2 seconds faster this year at prescott over last years time , not because of mods but by watching in car videos and identifying the areas I can improve ...changing into first on the way in to "Pardon" as opposed to at the top of the hill and fumbling the gear change prob saved a second for instance ..that's the fun in hillclimbing ..and when it comes together the improvements in time can add up ..very satisfying ..

 

[Rob Thomson]

This is the problem with S1/ SB or any other standard production category..there is always suspicions and whispers about cheating etc ..
That's why a few championships wont entertain it ..Midland have recently introduced it but were sceptical ..The problem with the Clios is that standard parts will be coming obsolete or hard to find so it's my guess that they ( msa , or whatever they called now ) , will raise the year for standard cars to say 2006 say ..to outlaw standard 172/182 clio in standard form ..just for that very reason of rare standard parts and force them into modified , just as they did with the peugeot 205s ..imo , clios are very hard to get better than Renault sport designed them without spending big money ..that's the point of the standard category, any improvements should be with the driver and not how big your wallet is or your engineering nouce..
For instance , I went nearly 2 seconds faster this year at prescott over last years time , not because of mods but by watching in car videos and identifying the areas I can improve ...changing into first on the way in to "Pardon" as opposed to at the top of the hill and fumbling the gear change prob saved a second for instance ..that's the fun in hillclimbing ..and when it comes together the improvements in time can add up ..very satisfying ..

I must stop putting my onboard videos on YouTube... ?

 

[Armchairracer]

In regards to standard parts and the pain of getting them ..I changed my exhaust and the best option was a pattern part from Euro car parts ..it took 3 different garages to get it fitting properly...was all shapes ..in the end the mot station had to take it off completely and cut a little section off and reweld it up ...pain in the backside ..at least I got quietest car of the day at prescott for all the efforts lol

 

[Rob Thomson]

In regards to standard parts and the pain of getting them ..I changed my exhaust and the best option was a pattern part from Euro car parts ..it took 3 different garages to get it fitting properly...was all shapes ..in the end the mot station had to take it off completely and cut a little section off and reweld it up ...pain in the backside ..at least I got quietest car of the day at prescott for all the efforts lol

Funny you say that, I fitted a new Klarius (spelling?) exhaust from ECP to mine on Tuesday. I haven't had that much fun since I had my ingrowing toe-nail pulled out.

To be fair, it fitted loads better than the previous one which needed the flange modifying with the die-grinder to fit the CAT and didn't align well (understatement) at the joint for the back-box.

 

[Armchairracer]

Funny you say that, I fitted a new Klarius (spelling?) exhaust from ECP to mine on Tuesday. I haven't had that much fun since I had my ingrowing toe-nail pulled out.

To be fair, it fitted loads better than the previous one which needed the flange modifying with the die-grinder to fit the CAT and didn't align well (understatement) at the joint for the back-box.

Yes ...it was the flange angle that was the problem iirc..

 

[jp_lcr]

I see what you mean if standard parts become rarer and rarer, is that what they did with 205s so a precendts been set?

I wonder if there's too big a gulf between Sc and 1b if think some lowering springs vs someone with 10k race engine, lsd, coilovers, any clever race bits, big brakes not likely to be much competition. I think weirdly cost wise it can even out a bit in 3c mod prod as you can do lots of things for free on weight loss, dont need to be road legal constraints etc etc.

Maybe in future will allow only lighter mods in 1b road going (for example no coilovers/lsd, 1a tyres) then full mod prod, so standard cars should be competitive in 1b but can also tweak but only by a few hundred quid not thousands. I found it almost impossible to find a 1b car for sale to get started.

 

[Armchairracer]

What I meant by the 205 comment was that a few yrs ago the msa introduced at yr 2000 cut off point for standard production cars ..as opposed to any age car previously ..I don't know why they did it ..possibly safety in post 2000 car was reasonable compared to a pre 2000 car ?? ...hence wiping out the standard production 205 GTI.
As far as competitive in the 1B class goes , you'll be surprised how good a standard clio with A1 tyres are ..we can regularly beat some modified on superior rubber ..so a few mods would get you a competitive car in class ..but not a class winner ..in championship events anyhow .

 

[Armchairracer]

Tbh ..I'm 90% certain next yr to move up to modified ..I want a few yrs on sticky tyres and lowered springs( eibach red) ...see how my times compare ..I've always said I wouldn't but I've 'u' turned a little and fancy a change ..no engine mods though ..poss a k and n filter ..as say , Loton Park , is all about handling ..the unmodified clio goes through a speed trap at more or less the same speed as a modified 1b car ..so it's more about handling ..the mods are easily reversible if I decide to move back ..

 

[Rob Thomson]

Yeah, my understanding is that Standard Car category had a year 2000 cut-off due to the perceived safety of more modern cars.

This was because the original intention of SC was to also relax the PPE requirements, e.g. no overalls, but that didn't happen. Of course, you can enter a standard 205 in Road Going (1B) with the same safety requirements as SC so the resulting regs are a bit stupid.

 

[Mr Burns]

I'm quite dubious of 'standard' class myself, especially after what I've heard people are prepared to do to get an advantage. I've been driving around Curborough for 11yrs and have a reputation for being quick, yet I'm still 1.2 seconds off the pace.

 

[Armchairracer]

Personally , I think they just drive and drive it , track days too etc until they cant go any quicker ..I remember a couple of yrs ago one of the fast "fiesta st " cars came to three sisters on the meeting after I was there ..and despite being miles faster than me at curborough was actually slower at the less familiar track ..so my opinion is familialarity..

 

[Rob Thomson]

Yep, it's familiarity. I've easily beaten the fast Curborough Fiesta ST at other venues.

It's rare for me to be challenged in the SC class. In the last couple of years I've only lost once, at Curborough at the end of last year when I was beaten by the ST and by another Cup. My first time at the venue (Fig 8) I did a 69.95. I think the SC record is 69.28 (that's the time on the Curborough championship website anyway). On my fastest run I completely buggered up one corner, and was taking what I now know to be the wrong line through the far hairpin. The time is in the car, I just need to extract it.

My car is completely standard, albeit very well maintained. I've never understood cheating in motorsport; how is it enjoyable to take home a plastic trophy that you've won by cheating. Just bizarre.

 

[Armchairracer]

Maintenence is the key ..as I'm finding out this year..my car feels a world apart from last year and I'm comfortably beating my times at every venue ..up to now ..familiarity too ..as I've a little more experience at the hillclimbs this year ..

 

[Mr Burns]

Familiarity is my trump card at Curborough... In theory I know the track as well as anyone, but I came second in my first event 1.2 seconds off the pace. I did a 72.8 on the figure of 8 in a standard Suzuki Swift Sport. I'm going to try and improve next weekend but I do feel Iike I'm getting good clean laps in already.

 

[jp_lcr]

Well if familiarity increases speed I'm having a good day, it's my birthday today and my awesome wife has got me a new GoPro and Hague headrest mount So hopefully I can see between runs where I'm losing time, and show more experienced folks like yourselves or even be cheeky and ask other in my class to get some feedback.

To date I get out the car and it's all a bit of a blur what I did on the lap or maybe that's age catching up on me

 

[Rob Thomson]

A camera is so useful, you'll learn loads.

If you've got a Mac, iMovie is brilliant for doing split screen comparisons...



If your competitors are stupid enough to upload their own videos to YouTube you can download them and do the same.

 

[Mr Burns]

Well if familiarity increases speed I'm having a good day, it's my birthday today and my awesome wife has got me a new GoPro and Hague headrest mount So hopefully I can see between runs where I'm losing time, and show more experienced folks like yourselves or even be cheeky and ask other in my class to get some feedback.

To date I get out the car and it's all a bit of a blur what I did on the lap or maybe that's age catching up on me

Happy Birthday mate. I'm always happy to help you go faster.

 

[jp_lcr]

Happy Birthday mate. I'm always happy to help you go faster.

Cheers mate will see you Sunday

 

[djp66]

Happy birthday

 

[jp_lcr]

4th race on Sunday went ok, car felt good and the day got warmer with a nice dry track (need to bring suncream to next one, I'm like Jerry the Berry off Phoenix Night today). I managed a 72.78 on the long (2 lap) course on my first timed run. I wanted in 72.s before this race, aiming for a second off each race this first year, that was 2 knocked off my best in last race.

In the second timed run I stuck it in 4th instead of 2nd just as I did in one of practice runs which was f£@(&$ frustrating but another learning point. Looking at some old times in this class a year or two ago that might have been quick enough for 3rd place but the lads in my class are pushing each other on, one did a 66.90 in his 200 Cup brilliant lap after sorting engine light, rev limiter issue.

3 races left to go (2 x fig of 8, 1 x short), learning loads each time. Go Pro was great to look back on know where there is more time if I'm more confident (still laughing at donnylad saying hes faster if thinks - kick its £$^&#* head in) that should be a race team name "KIFHI Racing". Will see if I can sort loading videos to YouTube to link here.

 

[Armchairracer]

66.90 ..

 

[jp_lcr]

I know that's like a mod prod time!

I picked the wrong class haha 6 of regulars in Championship are properly quick.

 

[Armchairracer]

Tbf the 200 cup seems to be the car to go for in this class ..theres a guy who competes in Longton and district events who has one and hes rapid around Aintree and Blyton ( the real power events) ...curborough is tight so they obv fast there too ..I thought I did ok recently on the 2 lapper with NSCC at 69.31 ( iirc) but 66.90 is another planet ..that's broke the class record comfortably ..

 

[jp_lcr]

Link not working

 

[Mr Burns]

Quite a few lap records were broken last Sunday, didn't think I'd be one of them!

 

[Rob Thomson]

66.90 ..

That's crazy fast. I've done 2-lap once and did a 68.97. I reckon I might be able to work that down to a 68.0 but another second off that is insane.

I really fancy doing the Curborough Championship next year, sounds like a proper challenge.

 

[Armchairracer]

As you know Rob , it's all about getting everything perfect in one lap ..that's the skill and thrill in the sport ..curborough championship is a great one , I did in my Daihatsu charade Gtti 9 or so yrs ago ..before fig of 8 ..

 

[Mr Burns]

That's crazy fast. I've done 2-lap once and did a 68.97. I reckon I might be able to work that down to a 68.0 but another second off that is insane.

I really fancy doing the Curborough Championship next year, sounds like a proper challenge.

It's great fun... I've just started out and I'm loving it. I never thought Curborough would get my adrenaline going lol.

 

[jp_lcr]

Another fun day out yesterday, a mixed bag of rain, drying and dry track. Bit of light drama in paddock before decision to go with 1 practice and 3 timed runs. It was the Mid Cheshire organised Figure of 8. A new personal best of 74.13, so I'm chipping away but not as much as I hoped!

It's really interesting looking back a my videos now make it much clearer. The lines look decent compared to the YouTube fast laps I've watched.

I think now it's more a mental thing now for me, to commit more, lift less, brake later, push closer to the edge of available grip and carry more speed through corners.

There was a nice black 182 with diff and coilovers driven well too, liked watching different way can drive with a diff, good to speak to owner called Rob who must be on here somewhere.

 

[Armchairracer]

Another fun day out yesterday, a mixed bag of rain, drying and dry track. Bit of light drama in paddock before decision to go with 1 practice and 3 timed runs. It was the Mid Cheshire organised Figure of 8. A new personal best of 74.13, so I'm chipping away but not as much as I hoped!

It's really interesting looking back a my videos now make it much clearer. The lines look decent compared to the YouTube fast laps I've watched.

I think now it's more a mental thing now for me, to commit more, lift less, brake later, push closer to the edge of available grip and carry more speed through corners.

There was a nice black 182 with diff and coilovers driven well too, liked watching different way can drive with a diff, good to speak to owner called Rob who must be on here somewhere.

Can you post onboard lap on here ?

 

[Armchairracer]

The one practice, three times runs , is controversial ..if in a championship that one extra practice can make all the difference, especially if your new to the venue .

 

[jp_lcr]

The one practice, three times runs , is controversial ..if in a championship that one extra practice can make all the difference, especially if your new to the venue .

Yeah that was the main point of debate hard on those who are new or not been out in while. It was done with best intentions I think of torrential rain expected in afternoon but we ended up getting rain in morning

I've uploaded video to my dropbox so hopefully you can see this?

74.13 lap of Curborough

 

[Rob Thomson]

Non-standard gear knob. Cheat.

 

[Rob Thomson]

One practice and three timed is fine if the three timed runs all count towards the results, but many championships only count the first two timed runs. If you're chasing a target time it makes it much harder.

 

[jp_lcr]

Haha I was so annoyed I attempted to refurb the original with sticker and lacquer, it went horribly wrong so went for an ebay special. Easy 5bhp upgrade

 

[Armchairracer]

One practice and three timed is fine if the three timed runs all count towards the results, but many championships only count the first two timed runs. If you're chasing a target time it makes it much harder.

Midlands would only recognise the first 2 timed ..not sure about hsa..not sure why clubs cant stick to the tried and tested 2 practice 2 timed..?

 

[jp_lcr]

Yeah only first 2 timed counted for us in Curborough Championship too

 

[Rob Thomson]

Yep, HSA is first two timed runs. Sodding annoying when you're trying to beat in three runs a target time that was set in four.