welshname
ClioSport Club Member
Don't think i've ever read anyone suffering brake fade on that setup on track with a 1*2 before. You must have a very agressive driving style lol.
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I brake very late and hard into the corners to try to compensate for the boat load of understeer I get from shitty road tyres lol
Got cooling to the brake area? I noticed the difference in heat (less) after I sorted mine out. Anyway, thanks for the pedal forgot to mention it had turned up. I'll more than likley be fitting it tommorow - though may just fit the TB I got from Dan tonight.
Just read your above post, leave the brakes untill you get the tyres, sort out the understeer then you can ease the use of the brakes plus you'll have a diff - no brakes needed into corners as loads of grip!!
Just read your above post, leave the brakes untill you get the tyres, sort out the understeer then you can ease the use of the brakes plus you'll have a diff - no brakes needed into corners as loads of grip!!
I've got the fog lights removed and no arch liners - but I haven't got a directed brake cooling pipe
Tyres will definitely be first on my list, then cambelt and the gearbox is coming out for a rebuild and diff
With a diff and R888's I probably won't need to upgrade the brakes as I'll be able to be more progressive with my driving lol
Tyres will definitely be first on my list, then cambelt and the gearbox is coming out for a rebuild and diff
With a diff and R888's I probably won't need to upgrade the brakes as I'll be able to be more progressive with my driving lol
Honestly Phil I really dislike the 2500's I used two sets on my R27 and couldn't make them last either! Tried different disc's and still didn't like them! Try a different pad before putting 4 pot's on, i'm sure you will be able to get something you like 
PM coming your way!
PM coming your way!
You're actually the 3rd person to say that - the 106 lot used to rave about DS2500's but I think the clio is a bit big and heavy for them
BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
Phil. I cannot remember all your setup but we also have fogs outans no liners and don't chew through pads. We did initially but I think we used to have brembo max grooved disks and swapped them to HC plains for that reason. Made a difference.
Also, I know you have always suffered with understeer to a degree but road tyres by themselves shouldnt be the cause. I know gripper tyres can change the balance a little but not bucket loads. I notice you say the billies are past their best already. Are the rear too soft? The only reason I ask is that we suffered badly with understeer when coming out of 2/3rd gear corners but one we stiffened the rears and fitted the arb the difference was quite unbelievable. Still the best money we have spent. Sure we can still spin the wheels if driving silly but it really transformed our car!
Shame all the work is required at the same time- hate it when that happens
Also, I know you have always suffered with understeer to a degree but road tyres by themselves shouldnt be the cause. I know gripper tyres can change the balance a little but not bucket loads. I notice you say the billies are past their best already. Are the rear too soft? The only reason I ask is that we suffered badly with understeer when coming out of 2/3rd gear corners but one we stiffened the rears and fitted the arb the difference was quite unbelievable. Still the best money we have spent. Sure we can still spin the wheels if driving silly but it really transformed our car!
Shame all the work is required at the same time- hate it when that happens
I've got the rear ARB set to the stiffest possible setting.
I haven't noticed the back have got softer but I do think the whole bilsteing setup is too soft - but I can't alter it as it isn't adjustable lol
It's another reason why I want to swap for Spax. My Bilstein's are only just a year old and the bearings have gone in them - even with it being a track only car and hardly being used. I hate the damn things.
Gray - what are PF97's? never heard of them
I haven't noticed the back have got softer but I do think the whole bilsteing setup is too soft - but I can't alter it as it isn't adjustable lol
It's another reason why I want to swap for Spax. My Bilstein's are only just a year old and the bearings have gone in them - even with it being a track only car and hardly being used. I hate the damn things.
Gray - what are PF97's? never heard of them
Agree fully with this
Phil PF97 are a Performance Friction pad and are good I ran them in the Alcon's the pad is very strong and in my callipers a little too strong for me at the moment but in a stock callipers they could be ideal!
It's a shame you don't have adjustable suspension but instead I would try and either lower the rear a few turns (Won't knock the geo out) or raise the front (Will need to re-do the geo) Playing with the ride heights in small increments has helped me with the understeer I was getting
I can't lower the rear any more as it's as low as it will go on the adjustors
I could take them out which would drop it another 20mm but looking at Feirny's pictures above that might be a bit too low lol
I could take them out which would drop it another 20mm but looking at Feirny's pictures above that might be a bit too low lol
Mmm yeah the pictures do look like the rear's are soft in relation to the front's, What geo settings do you have it set to? I would try a couple of turns up at the front and a bit of toe out, if that doesn't help then maybe a very slight toe out on the rear! I'm having a play with some of this stuff at the test next week so will let you know how I get on!
I could go up a bit at the front - it's running toe out on the front and -2degrees of camber
I need to book a day at Blyton to try a few different settings
I need to book a day at Blyton to try a few different settings
Yeah sounds like a good idea
Let me know if you need a hand mate and I will try and come over to watch
Let me know if you need a hand mate and I will try and come over to watch
In have, plenty of times, spoken to 2 people this week alone who've had it. MASSIVELY over rated and over priced pads.
ph1 172
tbf I am not massively impressed with this setup either. I cook mine on track all the time even in the poring Welsh rain. Went through a set of Brembo H/C's in 4 track days and 5k road miles, warped and scored beyond what will wear back down.
What tyres do you currently have Phil?
Yeah sounds like a good idea
Let me know if you need a hand mate and I will try and come over to watch
I'd really appreciate that mate - might even chuck you the keys for a few laps and see how you think it compares to yours. I've been trying to sort the understeer on mine for ages now
What would you recommend mate? I'm starting to see that the DS2500+Brembo HC setup aint really worth the money
Uniroyal Rainsport's LOL
I really wish I'd put some priority into track tyres
No worries mate I'm always happy to help outI'd really appreciate that mate - might even chuck you the keys for a few laps and see how you think it compares to yours. I've been trying to sort the understeer on mine for ages now
Try and do one with Apex if you can as that way I can bring my car and we can have a play lol! Howard (The guy at Anglesey) is the head instructor for them and they give free tuition which is always a bonus! I think their days are cheapest at Blyton. I'm sure you will be able to get your's handling well without having to swap suspension, fit a diff etc. Yes they all help but you can still make it handle well I got mine handling really well when it was soft and it was so nice to drive but ultimately it was slow! By slow I mean a second or 2 a lap so not exactly that bad but doesn't help when I'm trying to raceBrembo HC's and CL RC6's.
Go hard or go home.
Go hard or go home.
Glad I'm not the only one to have these problems
I'm not happy with the brakes and I'm REALLY not happy with the bilsteins - so I'm gonna start stripping the car down in a couple of months and get it sorted for next year
Sir_Dave
ClioSport Trader
As ive said 5 million times, id start with some tuition tbh. Without wishing to cause offence, your braking/understeer issues are clearly driver related. A poor workmen always blames his tools
Although admitedly using RAINsports as a dry weather trackday tyre is slightly odd.
Had tuition, lost lots of understeer from braking later, turning in later, heel+toeing. But the car still understeers
Even the guy giving me tuition said the tyres were s**t
It at MINIMUM needs better tyres, but the bilsteins are getting binned for spax or KW V2's or AST's (depending on budget), and I'm probably going to fit 4-pots just because lol
I agree I have a lot to learn, especially at Donington - I really don't know the circuit. But you can only go so far with the wrong tools
I think i'm gonna do one more day in it this year at Brands Hatch cos I love that circuit and know it very well
Even the guy giving me tuition said the tyres were s**t
It at MINIMUM needs better tyres, but the bilsteins are getting binned for spax or KW V2's or AST's (depending on budget), and I'm probably going to fit 4-pots just because lol
I agree I have a lot to learn, especially at Donington - I really don't know the circuit. But you can only go so far with the wrong tools
I think i'm gonna do one more day in it this year at Brands Hatch cos I love that circuit and know it very well
Because the back end is already twitchy and very easy to get out if I lift off slightly
I don't want any more LOOS lol
I don't want any more LOOS lol
So let me get this right...
Your getting understeer.
Your getting lift off oversteer.
My verdict - Tuition is clearly needed as Dave says, you'd either have one extreme or the other. How you can have both thats so bad is unbelievable.
Tyres and camber will help, though then the car will mearly flatter you more.
Your getting understeer.
Your getting lift off oversteer.
My verdict - Tuition is clearly needed as Dave says, you'd either have one extreme or the other. How you can have both thats so bad is unbelievable.
Tyres and camber will help, though then the car will mearly flatter you more.
I can get lift off oversteer yeah - it's handy at anglesey to turn quicker round the hairpin LOL, but you have to provoke it
Understeer I get all the time even on the road
Also there is a big difference between oversteer and lift-off-oversteer Nick. If I said I had both oversteer and understeer that would be unbelievable. Saying I have understeer but just the right amount of lift-off-oversteer therefore not wanting to raise the back end is perfectly believable.
I have camber, I had a proper track setup (caster,toe,camber etc..)
I can drive (regardless of what you lot keep saying) to at least the same standard as the other people I'm on track with
I have 7 separate people who have been in the car, including a lotus race team driving tutor and ex clio racer, who have said the tyres are s**t
And after 10mins on track I also have completely bald, overheated, tyres.
I'm pretty sure it's mainly the tyres - I just didn't have £480 spare before Donington came up
To be honest though it's worth £480 just to shut the people up who keep saying I need tuition, even after having tuition
Also just because I feel like I've said this 800x and it's getting really boring now
I wan't to build the car to suit my driving style - not learn to drive around faults with the car
Understeer I get all the time even on the road
Also there is a big difference between oversteer and lift-off-oversteer Nick. If I said I had both oversteer and understeer that would be unbelievable. Saying I have understeer but just the right amount of lift-off-oversteer therefore not wanting to raise the back end is perfectly believable.
I have camber, I had a proper track setup (caster,toe,camber etc..)
I can drive (regardless of what you lot keep saying) to at least the same standard as the other people I'm on track with
I have 7 separate people who have been in the car, including a lotus race team driving tutor and ex clio racer, who have said the tyres are s**t
And after 10mins on track I also have completely bald, overheated, tyres.
I'm pretty sure it's mainly the tyres - I just didn't have £480 spare before Donington came up
To be honest though it's worth £480 just to shut the people up who keep saying I need tuition, even after having tuition
Also just because I feel like I've said this 800x and it's getting really boring now
I wan't to build the car to suit my driving style - not learn to drive around faults with the car
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BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
Ok Phil I sense your frustration
At least we now know you can achieve LOOS so it's not understeering all the time. I think it was the fact that you said you were using the brakes very hard to try and drive round the understeer that lead me to think the setup was completely wrong. Ie understeer in to corners etc.
As you have had the geo checked maybe it is the tyres. As soon as they get overwhelmed (and overheat) your struggling from the off and grip will only get worse.
Hope you get to the bottom of it.
At least we now know you can achieve LOOS so it's not understeering all the time. I think it was the fact that you said you were using the brakes very hard to try and drive round the understeer that lead me to think the setup was completely wrong. Ie understeer in to corners etc.
As you have had the geo checked maybe it is the tyres. As soon as they get overwhelmed (and overheat) your struggling from the off and grip will only get worse.
Hope you get to the bottom of it.
Sir_Dave
ClioSport Trader
Heres another suggestion, when you do brands let me know, & i could perhaps come along (might even do the day in my car) and tell you what your handling issue is.
Alternatively simply get one of the northern lot to drive your car & give some feedback
Alternatively simply get one of the northern lot to drive your car & give some feedback
Dave - i'll let you know. At this point in time I'd be quite happy to throw my keys at someone and see what they think, especially someone who's better at driving than me lol
I'm supposed to be doing a day at Blyton later this year and James (bigash) is gonna pop down
Mark has been in my car for several laps at anglesey and he just said the chassis must be poo or the tyres lol
I then went in his AX with R888's and there was not a single bit of tyre squeel at all, and he was a good 2 or 3seconds a lap faster than me and the clio was squeeling its tits off on every corner lol
To clarify - I've never felt it understeer into a corner, it always seems to have loads of grip while braking, loads while turning and hitting the apex, but coming out of the corner it's near impossible to get the power down without it understeering. It just squeels the tyres even if i'm gentle and wait till all the steering has come off
If my suspension was more adjustable I'd say the back needs stiffening up so all the weight doesnt roll onto the rear wheels when you start to put the power on.
Raising the rear would probably do the same - but it would make the car very twitchy going into corners on the brakes.
I'm supposed to be doing a day at Blyton later this year and James (bigash) is gonna pop down
Mark has been in my car for several laps at anglesey and he just said the chassis must be poo or the tyres lol
I then went in his AX with R888's and there was not a single bit of tyre squeel at all, and he was a good 2 or 3seconds a lap faster than me and the clio was squeeling its tits off on every corner lol
To clarify - I've never felt it understeer into a corner, it always seems to have loads of grip while braking, loads while turning and hitting the apex, but coming out of the corner it's near impossible to get the power down without it understeering. It just squeels the tyres even if i'm gentle and wait till all the steering has come off
If my suspension was more adjustable I'd say the back needs stiffening up so all the weight doesnt roll onto the rear wheels when you start to put the power on.
Raising the rear would probably do the same - but it would make the car very twitchy going into corners on the brakes.
Nah - someone suggested practicing trail braking - to keep the weight loaded up on the front tyres right up to the apex - so I started doing that (previously I was braking on the straight, turning in, then powering out) - it did help stop the understeer but it's very hard on the DS2500's and they started to give up after 10+ laps
You need to get some R888s or similar and take it from there. I wouldn't make any other setup changes until you've got better tyres.
See if you had said that then you wouldnt be getting the battering that we give you!
Thats pretty much the tyres saying I cant provide you with any more grip, so stickier tyres are the way forward! Also I think a little more negative camber on the front would help that also for the outside wheel, obviously the inside will have a harder time getting traction but with something like a Yoko AO48 R you'll see a massive difference in corner exit traction.
For the rear you could always raise the back up and soften the anti-roll bar up if your worried about it changing ends, that should then push more weight towards the front wheels for better cornering/traction. Alternatively you could leave the ARB as it is, raise the back slightly/lower the front and run a camber shim on the rear so that the rear tyre isnt leaning so much on the sidewall providing you with a bit more rear end stability. Another is a slightly stiffer spring rate on the back, though if your shocks are ruined already then that may not be a great idea.
Surely the billies you have are still in warrenty? If so i'd be throwing them back and getting a refund as 6 months/5k miles is appauling.
What geometry settings do you have anyways? Always curious as to what people run.
