Another Clio 172 Cup track/race build.

[MG cup]

Hello folks

I have been on CS for long, I have been lurcking around but haven't posted much so I thought I would start a project thread.

Its going to be pretty brief as I hate typing essay's.

I decided to go racing in the 2013 SMRC sports and saloons and decided on a Clio.
The car will be getting built as a track car this year and then extinguishers etc fitted threw the winter.

A nice 53 plate 172 cup came up with 62,000 miles on the clock and it needed a timing belt, engine mounts and a few other little bits
but I wasn't worried as I would be changing it all. So I drove it home to Aberdeen from Edinburgh and I was really impressed with the
way it went, my daily a Corsa VXR would be shown up by one of these in many ways, they are a lot of car for the cash.

So this is how it stood when I got it home in mid may.

I then set about finding a lock up to carry out build and got going.

A few nights work and I was left with this.

Then I moved onto cleaning and painting the underneath and arches.

After that was done I moved on to getting this puzzle in, ever tryed putting a square peg in a round hole.

This is the cage schematic

Started to put in cage, mostly tacked in before I ran out of gas.

Put an old seat in place to start mocking up the steering height while I get more gas.

Started to strip, modify and mock up the suspension.

Gotta love the camber.

So far the spec list is.

Interior:
Oreca race cage, full dash will be kept for ease of build.
Sabelt renault sport wheel.
Seats and harnesses to be decided.

Body:
Cup racer brake ducts.
Cup racer tow eye's.
Aero locked bumper and bonnet.

Brake ducts painted and ready to go on.

Chassis:
Full cup racer suspension.
Pure motorsport strut brace & top mounts
PS axle strengthening kit and spherical bearings.
Speedline 2118's and williams wheel's.
Slicks

Engine:
Part rebuild after compression test showing good numbers.
Cat cams 421's.
Enlarged throttle body.
Matched inlets.
PTFE gaskets.
Magnecor leads.
ARP con rod bolts
ACL race bearings on big ends.
Lightened & balanced flywheel & crankshaft.
Lightened pulleys.
P/steering delete.
Timing belt kit and dephaser pulley.

Im sure I have forgot about some things and have plenty to do with the parts I have so I will keep it updated when I get a chance.

Any comments welcome, good or bad, let me know if anything looks wrong as its my first full rebuild.

 

[ianpettifer]

Looks like one hell of a project! Subscribed!

 

[MG cup]

Wasn't meant to be, got a bit carried away :S

 

[si_hartlepool]

Got the makings of a great project this mate

 

[Adam.]

Epic build.

 

[Stu.]

Awesome!

 

[northy]

very nice - some very nice parts fitted here! Shame you couldnt of afforded that Sequential gearbox which was forsale with that suspension!

Are we keeping the car the same colour ?

 

[Kenny.s]

Very nice, i'll be keeping an eye on this one.
As has already been said, you've picked up some nice parts! Have you got driveshafts too?

I'm still hoping to get my car out next year but time is flying by! Once I've cut my teeth on the sprints and hills, and depending on how I get on with the car, I might consider getting a race licence, so you never know, might see you at Knockhill in a year or two lol

 

[MG cup]

very nice - some very nice parts fitted here! Shame you couldnt of afforded that Sequential gearbox which was forsale with that suspension!

Are we keeping the car the same colour ?

Yep same colour so far, inside will be gunmetal to allow a colour change when wanted.

I thought about it mate and I decided against it, by time Im done it will be cup racer money anyway and could have just bought a cup racer, part of the funs the build for me. As much as I would love to have the sequential box and other parts, I'm free to tune mine out the box with no rewiring/new ecu's. Plus it will be off the shelf parts fitted than can be sourced fairly quickly & cheaply.

 

[Fletcher]

Good project.

I am after that cage too.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Subscribed - this looks epic

I've been trying to find the brake cooling ducts for ages! lol you lucky git
I'm also kinda wishing I'd gone for the full blown cup racer suspension too

 

[Wayne-G]

Got some nice goodies for it there Looks good so far.

 

[MG cup]

Very nice, i'll be keeping an eye on this one.
As has already been said, you've picked up some nice parts! Have you got driveshafts too?

I'm still hoping to get my car out next year but time is flying by! Once I've cut my teeth on the sprints and hills, and depending on how I get on with the car, I might consider getting a race licence, so you never know, might see you at Knockhill in a year or two lol

Driveshafts were the biggest worry I had while deciding on this suspension but I think I have found shafts off the shelf from a larger Renault to suit finally. Winner....but it looks like I'm going to have to adjust the rack for bump steer.

Im the same mate will be tracking it/sprinting to get everything ironed out and get a spare parts list to go racing.
Yeah would be good to see a few more cars similar in the championship, to be honest the Clio isn't really competitive in sport & saloons unless you go forced induction and road based tyres.

Been keeping an eye on your project too, fabrication is A1- credit to you! What route you thinking with engine?

 

[MG cup]

Good project.

I am after that cage too.

Quality cage, fit is so tight and coping is almost spot on. On problem IMO is it doesn't pick up rear turrets or axle mount.

I would have a custom cages cage in hindsight but this will do with adjustments.

 

[Fletcher]

Quality cage, fit is so tight and coping is almost spot on. On problem IMO is it doesn't pick up rear turrets or axle mount.

I would have a custom cages cage in hindsight but this will do with adjustments.

Oh right. Hopefully have a look at Tom's cup this week, he has just bought on of these race cages.

 

[MG cup]

Subscribed - this looks epic

I've been trying to find the brake cooling ducts for ages! lol you lucky git
I'm also kinda wishing I'd gone for the full blown cup racer suspension too

Brake ducts can be had easy enough if your willing to pay

Suspension doesn't seem the easiest to fit and get all the angles right but should be worth it. I'm surprised it hasen't been done before with a manual box.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I think it has - there as a progress blog on here when I first joined up and the lad had fitted the full cup suspension to it. Or at least he was doing.

Do you fancy PM'ing me how I'd get hold of a set? I'm willing to pay lol

 

[MG cup]

Is that the thread where 2 guys were going to go racing in the tin tops and then decided to strip car halfway through when their plans changed.Pm me an offer for mine, bare in mind the deflector plates will be kept as there harder to get a hold of but easy to make with a cardboard box, some fiberglass and a bit of thought.

 

[Kenny.s]

Driveshafts were the biggest worry I had while deciding on this suspension but I think I have found shafts off the shelf from a larger Renault to suit finally. Winner....but it looks like I'm going to have to adjust the rack for bump steer.

Im the same mate will be tracking it/sprinting to get everything ironed out and get a spare parts list to go racing.
Yeah would be good to see a few more cars similar in the championship, to be honest the Clio isn't really competitive in sport & saloons unless you go forced induction and road based tyres.

Been keeping an eye on your project too, fabrication is A1- credit to you! What route you thinking with engine?

I'm sure I read somwhere on here about longer driveshafts from another model, what are they from again, Megane Scenic?

I did wonder what you where going to do about bump steer.

You've probably seen on my thread that I moved the rack up by 20mm, cant go anymore than that or the steering rods are in danger of hitting the chassis legs.
To get the rest of the correction I was planning to use spherical rod ends, drill out the taper in the upright to take a 12 or 14mm bolt and then space the arm down 19mm +/- leaving enough for shims/washers to fine tune it and get the bump steer down to as little as possible. Raising the rack 20mm meant that there should be less strain on the bolt/spacer/rod end arrangement at the upright.

Out of curiosity, how long are the pins that go into the bottom of the uprights, between mounting faces? ie how much do they raise the roll centre?

Yeah, definitely be good to have some more 2.0 n/a cars out there, be brilliant if there was enough to justify a class split for them.

 

[Ben .]

looks like its going to be an absolute awesome build i will be keeping an eye on this!

 

[MG cup]

I'm sure I read somwhere on here about longer driveshafts from another model, what are they from again, Megane Scenic?

I did wonder what you where going to do about bump steer.

You've probably seen on my thread that I moved the rack up by 20mm, cant go anymore than that or the steering rods are in danger of hitting the chassis legs.
To get the rest of the correction I was planning to use spherical rod ends, drill out the taper in the upright to take a 12 or 14mm bolt and then space the arm down 19mm +/- leaving enough for shims/washers to fine tune it and get the bump steer down to as little as possible. Raising the rack 20mm meant that there should be less strain on the bolt/spacer/rod end arrangement at the upright.

Out of curiosity, how long are the pins that go into the bottom of the uprights, between mounting faces? ie how much do they raise the roll centre?

Yeah, definitely be good to have some more 2.0 n/a cars out there, be brilliant if there was enough to justify a class split for them.

Yeah megane scenic was my thinking but it looks like there longer than the ff 172 but almost equal to cup so ill wait until i get box in for mock up and see what I have, with the lowered height, you gain a bit of length in the shafts as there isnt as much suspension travel so cup shafts may work. Maybe you could help, do you know if the shafts that was fitted to the 1*2 range were different lenghts, my thinking is yes but it could have been in the hubs and wheel offset they got the wider track??

Yeah and a good job you done of it too, Im thinking I will just elongate the holes a bit and get eccentric bolts to raise mine as it seems such a small amount and it will be adjustable to suit different suspension heights, saves on fancy track rod ends etc. Have you not thought about roll centre adjuster pins to avoid issues with steering angles, driveshaft contact to frame etc.

I will get a pin out and do a drawing for you if that would help? These pins can be had pretty cheap too. Its my birthday so off out for some shandys so will be later on tommorrow now tho.

A would like to see a series with 2.0 n/a, just keep the engines in the same brand family and eveything else is unlimited. It would be a big series up our way I think!

 

[x8mrk]

Cracking build so far, some awesome parts used.

 

[MG cup]

Thanks for all the comments so far.

 

[Ricardos]

The makings of an epic project thread

 

[Kenny.s]

Yeah megane scenic was my thinking but it looks like there longer than the ff 172 but almost equal to cup so ill wait until i get box in for mock up and see what I have, with the lowered height, you gain a bit of length in the shafts as there isnt as much suspension travel so cup shafts may work. Maybe you could help, do you know if the shafts that was fitted to the 1*2 range were different lenghts, my thinking is yes but it could have been in the hubs and wheel offset they got the wider track??

Yeah and a good job you done of it too, Im thinking I will just elongate the holes a bit and get eccentric bolts to raise mine as it seems such a small amount and it will be adjustable to suit different suspension heights, saves on fancy track rod ends etc. Have you not thought about roll centre adjuster pins to avoid issues with steering angles, driveshaft contact to frame etc.

I will get a pin out and do a drawing for you if that would help? These pins can be had pretty cheap too. Its my birthday so off out for some shandys so will be later on tommorrow now tho.

A would like to see a series with 2.0 n/a, just keep the engines in the same brand family and eveything else is unlimited. It would be a big series up our way I think!

Hope you had a good b'day lol!


I'm not sure what the differences are in the shaft lengths, i've never seen anything conclusive on what, if any differences there are in uprights etc with regard to how it effects the track. Best thing would be to physically get hold of a selection of bits and compare them.

If needs be Gripper can make uprated shafts to any length you want, for quite reasonable money. I'm hoping to go with std shafts initially but if I decide to widen the track then I know thats an option.

Regards the roll centre etc, i've not looked at but I'm assuming the Cup Racers did something to correct the induced bump steer as a result of using the pins? I'll need to dig out the Workshop PDF file and have a look.

Putting rod ends on the steering arms isn't that much hassle really and it gives you a nice easy way to adjust the bump steer accurately.
Having modified the rack mountings, I would think you'll struggle to get much adjustment on the existing holes.
If the wishbone angle has been altered by "X" amount by my reckoning the steering arm would also need to be moved by the same amount in order for the relationship between them ie the "arc" they both take, to be maintained.

Also, I've been told be a few folk, some who ran the Cup Racers, that the rack can move in it's mounts under load and there's scope to improve steering feel etc by stopping it moving. So anything you do there, be concious of not allowing anything to move about.

If you could measure up one of the pins that would be great, I've based most of my current changes and modifications on best guesses so it'll be interesting to see how they compare to what Renault did lol.

 

[Damian.H]

Very, very impressive so far. I'm feeling some inspiration for my upcoming project! Good luck with the rest of the build, i'll be watching!

 

[jon_r]

Lovely parts being used. I've got that cage in mine, it's a great fit. I had an additional bar added between the a pillars behind the dash top.

 

[MG cup]

I have found out that 182 shafts are a 2 piece design on drivers side which should be a small Improvment for torque steer.

Did you get a chance to look at the cup racer manual, I think the subframes are just standard with modified engine mounts to sit engine lower and standard track rods.

I have been called offshore so as far as the roll centre pins I haven't been able to remove and do a drawing but I did measure quickly and they adjust the wishbones 35mm lower from cup racer hubs but if you measure from the bottom of the wishbone to the driveshaft centre with cup hubs fitted you get 85mm but with the laguna hubs ie cup racer setup, you get 135mm so by my maths that's a a difference of 50mm roll centre adjustment keeping the wishbone at near standard height/angle.

I have tried to get a hold of Rikus on here for plastic rack mounts but never heard back :S

Hope you had a good b'day lol!


I'm not sure what the differences are in the shaft lengths, i've never seen anything conclusive on what, if any differences there are in uprights etc with regard to how it effects the track. Best thing would be to physically get hold of a selection of bits and compare them.

If needs be Gripper can make uprated shafts to any length you want, for quite reasonable money. I'm hoping to go with std shafts initially but if I decide to widen the track then I know thats an option.

Regards the roll centre etc, i've not looked at but I'm assuming the Cup Racers did something to correct the induced bump steer as a result of using the pins? I'll need to dig out the Workshop PDF file and have a look.

Putting rod ends on the steering arms isn't that much hassle really and it gives you a nice easy way to adjust the bump steer accurately.
Having modified the rack mountings, I would think you'll struggle to get much adjustment on the existing holes.
If the wishbone angle has been altered by "X" amount by my reckoning the steering arm would also need to be moved by the same amount in order for the relationship between them ie the "arc" they both take, to be maintained.

Also, I've been told be a few folk, some who ran the Cup Racers, that the rack can move in it's mounts under load and there's scope to improve steering feel etc by stopping it moving. So anything you do there, be concious of not allowing anything to move about.

If you could measure up one of the pins that would be great, I've based most of my current changes and modifications on best guesses so it'll be interesting to see how they compare to what Renault did lol.

 

[MG cup]

Yeah one of the tightest cages I have seen. I was going to do that but i don't think I'll manage to get dash back in? I will just tie it to A and B pillars and fit harness bars and rear strut and axle pickups.

QUOTE=jon_r;8828717]Lovely parts being used. I've got that cage in mine, it's a great fit. I had an additional bar added between the a pillars behind the dash top.[/QUOTE]

 

[BIGASH]

Epic project Can't wait to see this progress! Can I ask where you got the front hub's etc from? Is it readily available or all tricky to get? Do you know if the racer hubs have the same bolt spacing as the non cup packed cars?

 

[Nick172Cup]

James - Don't bother mate, it really isn't worth the hassle all that gear!

Nice project btw, if you can get all the bits and get it all working fair play! I had a setup like this before as I was going to fit it to a road going Clio but having spoken to R-Sport and trawling the Internet for bits I gave up with it.

Nick

 

[MG cup]

I aquired this setup from a contact at a very reasonabl price. Like Nick has said, its very expensive to buy complete kit new.

Love your project by the way Ash. Most parts can be had at r-sport or tcr still have some parts left from running them. Im unsure of the spacing but from memory its alot bigger than my oem cup spacing. After some research i beleive the hubs to be laguna and eveything else is custom, i bought loads of spares the other day and servicable parts actually arent that expensive.

What are you thinking? Keep your current struts and fit these hubs etc? Damping is static but the cup racers managed fine and they will p**s on any Clio with standard equipment IMO.

Morgan

isQUOTE=BIGASH;8829578]Epic project Can't wait to see this progress! Can I ask where you got the front hub's etc from? Is it readily available or all tricky to get? Do you know if the racer hubs have the same bolt spacing as the non cup packed cars?[/QUOTE]

 

[BIGASH]

James - Don't bother mate, it really isn't worth the hassle all that gear!

Yeah Nick I don't actually understand the difference yet lol ! I was just told that if I can improve the roll centres then it would a good hurdle to hop! Ideally dont want to do it now but was just trying to plan ahead incase they were different fittings etc

I aquired this setup from a contact at a very reasonabl price. Like Nick has said, its very expensive to buy complete kit new.

Love your project by the way Ash. Most parts can be had at r-sport or tcr still have some parts left from running them. Im unsure of the spacing but from memory its alot bigger than my oem cup spacing. After some research i beleive the hubs to be laguna and eveything else is custom, i bought loads of spares the other day and servicable parts actually arent that expensive.

What are you thinking? Keep your current struts and fit these hubs etc? Damping is static but the cup racers managed fine and they will p**s on any Clio with standard equipment IMO.

Morgan

Sounds good mate

Thank you very much! Ahh okay I will have a chat with a guy I know at TCR and see what they say as above it's not something I want to do at the moment but I don't really know the advantages/disadvantages other than I was told it would be advantageous to my setup. Ideally I want to keep standardised parts on the car so it is simple to find bits when I break things but if there is a big difference then I would consider it. Yes I remember hearing that the hubs are from a laguna

I was only thinking about it now because I was wondering if my new suspension will fit it if I were to upgrade the hubs at a later date! Haha yes they certainly do go well Are you planning to run adjustable top mounts to give you adjustable camber? Can't wait to see this completed! Good luck with it all

 

[MG cup]

I have pure motorsport top mounts and camber will be adjusted with different size bolts on the strut mount, and castor will be increased but static with cup racer wishbones, I would have liked AST top mounts but they don't fit Renault sport bilsteins.

Have you decided on new suspension, I see you've been having fun with yours recently.

Yeah Nick I don't actually understand the difference yet lol ! I was just told that if I can improve the roll centres then it would a good hurdle to hop! Ideally dont want to do it now but was just trying to plan ahead incase they were different fittings etc

Sounds good mate

Thank you very much! Ahh okay I will have a chat with a guy I know at TCR and see what they say as above it's not something I want to do at the moment but I don't really know the advantages/disadvantages other than I was told it would be advantageous to my setup. Ideally I want to keep standardised parts on the car so it is simple to find bits when I break things but if there is a big difference then I would consider it. Yes I remember hearing that the hubs are from a laguna

I was only thinking about it now because I was wondering if my new suspension will fit it if I were to upgrade the hubs at a later date! Haha yes they certainly do go well Are you planning to run adjustable top mounts to give you adjustable camber? Can't wait to see this completed! Good luck with it all

 

[BIGASH]

Ahh sorry yes of course you do, I remember seeing them in the picture now you've mentioned it lol! I am currently trying to work out a solution to run the Nitron top mounts which give really nice adjustment of castor and camber but the strut top is really odd on the clio's and unfortunately I don't have the epic fab skills of Kenny!

Hopefully I can go with the Nitrons but just waiting to hear back from them when they have done a little more testing with them! Haha yes unfortunately had a few tough months lol!

 

[MG cup]

Kennys skills deserve props, lot of patience required there which isnt a strong point of mine. I'd love to cut away the strut tops also, they are no use for good adjustment of setup. Does intron top mounts require re -fabrication of the top mount aswell?

 

[BIGASH]

I'm okay with patience as long as I know what I'm doing which to do with the clio I don't lol! Yes from the dimensions I have got they need a much bigger level surface to sit on, can't just cut down the raised part as that would then lower the stroke The only way to do it is the same as Kenny but that's too much work for me at the moment so can be a project for a winter

Don't get me wrong nothing wrong with the PMS top mounts but the Nitron's are designed to have the camber adjusted by the top mount so would need to work something else out!

 

[Kenny.s]

I'm offshore at the moment too.

Not looked at the cup racer manual yet, but will try and get a look sometime today.

Cheers for measuring up the pins. It's a bit early to be thinking too hard about roll centres lol but I would make that a 35mm change in roll centre, regardless of the hubs used. From what you've said, the laguna hubs will effectively produce a static 50mm drop in ride height relative to the standard Clio hubs.
If you get a chance when you get back perhaps you could offer the two hubs up side by side, I'm guessing the laguna hubs must also move the steering arm if they just use standard track rod ends.

This link has a few diagrams which will explain better than I can
http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/main.asp?sitepages=suspension geometry

I might ask my machine shop guy to make up some steering rack mounts, he's got CNC equipment so I might be able to offer these as a kit but don't know what timescales this will be on, got loads to be getting on with just now.

I have found out that 182 shafts are a 2 piece design on drivers side which should be a small Improvment for torque steer.

Did you get a chance to look at the cup racer manual, I think the subframes are just standard with modified engine mounts to sit engine lower and standard track rods.

I have been called offshore so as far as the roll centre pins I haven't been able to remove and do a drawing but I did measure quickly and they adjust the wishbones 35mm lower from cup racer hubs but if you measure from the bottom of the wishbone to the driveshaft centre with cup hubs fitted you get 85mm but with the laguna hubs ie cup racer setup, you get 135mm so by my maths that's a a difference of 50mm roll centre adjustment keeping the wishbone at near standard height/angle.

I have tried to get a hold of Rikus on here for plastic rack mounts but never heard back :S

 

[MG cup]

That's one of the better setup guides I have read. Im going to mock back up standard suspension and take measurements and try to transfer over to my setup but I'll have to find out if standard settings were anywhere near good tho. I'm trying to keep everything as much a home build as possible and basic camber guage and the string method for toe in/out adjustments after a full geo setup to save money.

I think definately a redesign of the rack mount would be the easiest option and just stick with that ride height then adjust camber and pressures to suit different conditions. Would you agree that for my setup with no castor adjustment available other than the extra dialed in with the wishbones and fixed damping.

Do you have the standard suspension geometery to go by?

 

[Cup_Phil]

James - if you're looking to cut out your strut tops to run different mounts have you spoken to Stu (the lad with the 106 at TDF) - he's a s**t hot fabricator/welder and he's done that exact thing to his 106. As your car is down there all the time I'd say he's the man to help you on that