Another Clio 172 Cup track/race build.

Cup_Phil · Jul 13, 2012

This is what Stu did with his top mounts on his 106 - utterly insane, they look factory

Designed and fabricated from scratch to give extra castor and loads of camber adjustment

BIGASH · Jul 13, 2012

Cup_Phil said:
James - if you're looking to cut out your strut tops to run different mounts have you spoken to Stu (the lad with the 106 at TDF) - he's a s**t hot fabricator/welder and he's done that exact thing to his 106. As your car is down there all the time I'd say he's the man to help you on that

Wow that looks amazing what he has done to the car! As you say he certainly is the man for the job but the car isn't down there much anymore due to how far away it is from me. Its a job that i'm going to try and do without until at least the end of the year as just too much hassle mid season. Its one of those things that would be really nice to have but not critical at the moment

MG cup · Jul 13, 2012

Nice work there, bit easier on a 106 than the clio's. The ride height would have to be addressed in the Clio aswell, this has got me thinking, I don't need encouragment as I want to go away choping things now.

Cup_Phil · Jul 13, 2012

Hahah sorry guys

He did it all himself - made a little rig for the whole cutter that mounted to the original bolt holes so the hole was cut in the same place on both
Then machined the plates up and welded them in

He's done them on a few 106's now

Kenny.s · Jul 13, 2012

I've been thinking about the roll centre thing again during the day and the differences you mentioned earlier about the centreline measurements, as I suspected it was maybe a bit too early in the morning to be thinking about stuff like that lol I didnt properly read what you had posted, it could well effectively raise the roll centre by 50mm. The static drop in ride height is 15mm not 50mm

When I got the original donor car, I took some basic measurements off the front end and used that as a basis for the modificiations I've made. Raising the roll centre 40mm looked like to be about right, if the pins and laguna hubs raise the roll centre 50mm my guesstimate wasnt too far off. I could probably go a bit further if I need to but I'll probably go with it as it is just now and see how I get on.

For the rack mounts I was either going to have some nylon bushes made to fit the std mounts or possibly just have some solid aluminium mounts made. Either option would be designed to fit the standard bolt spacing.

If you've not already, have a look inside the back of the subframe where the rack mounts attach, you'll see what I mean about the problem with trying to slot the holes, you might get 3-4mm before you'll need to remove the stiffening sleeve thats inside that section, it's held in with a monster spot weld! it takes a bit of persuasion to get it out!

I had a look in the Cup Racer parts manual, there is a part which goes into the steering arm on the hub but I cant really tell from the PDF what it does, the ball joints look fairly normal so the part shown for the hubs might just be a sleeve of some sort to covert it to take standard clio track rod ends.

Have you bolted a corner up properly to see if the track rod ends fit and what bump steer there actually is?

Swede cup said:
That's one of the better setup guides I have read. Im going to mock back up standard suspension and take measurements and try to transfer over to my setup but I'll have to find out if standard settings were anywhere near good tho. I'm trying to keep everything as much a home build as possible and basic camber guage and the string method for toe in/out adjustments after a full geo setup to save money.

I think definately a redesign of the rack mount would be the easiest option and just stick with that ride height then adjust camber and pressures to suit different conditions. Would you agree that for my setup with no castor adjustment available other than the extra dialed in with the wishbones and fixed damping.

Do you have the standard suspension geometery to go by?

MG cup · Jul 13, 2012

I'm no expert but I thought that would be more like the difference, from the lower pivot to the axis of the wheel.

Thinking back on it, elongating holes on a subframe is a stupid idea to be honest, especially with slicks and the forces there will be.

I will just get solid mounts made with same hole spacing as subframe but moves the rack up/down/in/out when correct ride height/ bump has been found.

You must have the same file as me, I thought you had tech spec's. Yeah your right, there's a brass type bush in hub to take standard Clio stuff or at least they fit nice, suspension has been fully together with old track rods and original wishbones, cup racer wishbones arrived now and new ends are on there way but I dont really know how to check bump steer

I understand the principal and what's required to adjust, remove spring and simulate droop/compression and measure it's affect on toe in/toe out... But I have no gauge and never used one, will need to invest.

Thinking on it Bump steer can only be setup with wheels parallel as when the steering knuckle moves the arcs of wishbone and steering arm differ, throwing it out, I guess it's just a balance.

p@blo · Jul 13, 2012

Looking nice. Good writeup

Kenny.s · Jul 13, 2012

Likewise, i'm learning as I go, although a few of my mates are quite good with this stuff.

The roll centre alteration is in effect 35mm but since the laguna hubs move the wheel up relative to the rest of the suspension, it lowers the car while keeping the suspension geometry static.

I would agree with you that slotting the holes in the subframe is not the nicest way to move the rack, and has the potential for things to move.

Whats the difference between std wishbones and the race car ones?

Have a google on bump steer, loads of good info out there. You can make your own gauge using either 1 or 2 dial gauges.
Bump steer when you have lock applied shouldn't really change, if it has to do anything you would want it to turn in slightly as apposed to turn out.
In order to measure accurately though you would need to lock the steering.

Swede cup said:
I'm no expert but I thought that would be more like the difference, from the lower pivot to the axis of the wheel.

Thinking back on it, elongating holes on a subframe is a stupid idea to be honest, especially with slicks and the forces there will be.

I will just get solid mounts made with same hole spacing as subframe but moves the rack up/down/in/out when correct ride height/ bump has been found.

You must have the same file as me, I thought you had tech spec's. Yeah your right, there's a brass type bush in hub to take standard Clio stuff or at least they fit nice, suspension has been fully together with old track rods and original wishbones, cup racer wishbones arrived now and new ends are on there way but I dont really know how to check bump steer I understand the principal and what's required to adjust, remove spring and simulate droop/compression and measure it's affect on toe in/toe out... But I have no gauge and never used one, will need to invest.

Thinking on it Bump steer can only be setup with wheels parallel as when the steering knuckle moves the arcs of wishbone and steering arm differ, throwing it out, I guess it's just a balance.

MG cup · Jul 14, 2012

Yeah I had a look, some are over complicated, that link you sent was good.

I have be assured that the racer arms give more castor, the bushes are offset in the yokes, easy enough to do with any bushes/sphericals to get free castor in a limited adjustment setup. I'm unsure if they are any longer yet, never got a tape to them yet.

tommy g · Jul 16, 2012

Looks really good mate

2Damnsly Andy · Jul 16, 2012

Looks superb fella, never ceases to amaze me how hands on some people are and what they are willing to do. I'd be scared sh*tless of mocking up suspension and welding parts on, cutting parts out etc. Good job I look forward to reading more.

MG cup · Jul 26, 2012

Been a while since I got anything done, home from offshore now so should get some progress in the next week. There was a few presents waiting for me on my return.

Steering wheel quick release with buttons for launch control & eventually dash control

Flywheel getting lightened and balanced by a mate FOC

Fitted my new wishbones and roll centre adjuster pins to freshen up suspension. Offset bushes to push wishbone 10mm forward giving more caster <img src="http://www.cliosport.net/forum/images/smilies/smiley1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" smilieid="12" class="inlineimg">

Decided to refit bonnet wings and bumper to fit aero catches, brake ducts & tow eye. Marked up bumper and cut holes

Cut holes in slam panel and fitted catch pins and catches

Marked cut,painted and fitted catches on bonnet

Drilled out tow point and fitted tow eye, cut fog lights out and fitted brake ducts.

Today's weight saving

Bumper is now quick release with 2 bolts, one in each arch and the aero catches on the front, 2 minute job to take off now so transporting on trailer and working on front end should be easy now. Decided to get ITB's and do it right first time to save on money in the long run on mapping and travelling to get setup. So these should be arriving next week after I pay Lewis Taylor from here for these tomorrow.

Rented welder will arrive next week so I will finish of cage, axle, mount seats, strengthen 2nd set of wishbones and get boss made to space out steering wheel and get quick release welded when seating position is right.

MG cup · Jul 26, 2012

Sorry about the formatting and the photography on that last post, no idea how to edit post.

neil a · Jul 26, 2012

Looks like a proper build with some very nice bits going onto it, who is going to be doing your mapping ? Im gutted I missed out on the throttle bodies but you snooze you loose .

shell-vt · Jul 26, 2012

yer very nice and it looks like a great build.. were did you get the fog air feeds from???

MG cup · Jul 26, 2012

I'm unsure yet, I'm waiting to hear back from omex with a company in Scotland that's good with French cars, otherwise I might travel down to see matt as he knows his onions.

Can you suggest anyone?

neil a said:
Looks like a proper build with some very nice bits going onto it, who is going to be doing your mapping ? Im gutted I missed out on the throttle bodies but you snooze you loose .

MG cup · Jul 26, 2012

I got these from a guy on hear luckily but these might be up for sale next week if your interested.

They are Motorsport parts mind and are function over fit really.....some adjustment required.

shell-vt said:
yer very nice and it looks like a great build.. were did you get the fog air feeds from???

neil a · Jul 26, 2012

I know Simon from Sitech racing has done alot of mapping on OMEX, mainly ford stuff but he does do any make. He has a civic in justnow for mapping on bodies , and is now based in Rosyth. Thats who I was goign to use if I got them as known him for years and half an hour along the road for me, has a dyno room aswell as wideband for on the road tweaking.

MG cup · Jul 26, 2012

I'll bare that in mind, I'm undecided just now, have you heard of anyone going to GMC Motorsport in Newton Stewart, he does a lot of 106's and saxo's etc and seems quite cheap for labour at £150 a day for some wiring jobs I was looking to get done.

neil a · Jul 26, 2012

Not heard anything about them for years they use to be big into supercharged saxos when they were fairly new , also did a couple of quick AX's that went to Knockhill.

shell-vt · Jul 26, 2012

Swede cup said:
I got these from a guy on hear luckily but these might be up for sale next week if your interested.

They are Motorsport parts mind and are function over fit really.....some adjustment required.

pm me if they are

JackJack · Jul 26, 2012

Great build.

MG cup · Jul 27, 2012

Another small update, I decided to cut the guts out the headlights to make cup racer esque blanks.

Turned out quite well, just need some paint.

Unsure of colour yet?? peoples thoughts would be good.

After being let down by 2 rental company's now I decided to just bite the bullet and get my own welder.

So after a full day of searching town for something half decent I got an offer I couldnt refuse on this

A nice 200A ESAB c201i will more than do the job.

No more worries about rushing through jobs with rental welder. only thing is now there's nothing stopping me seam welding which I really shouldnt get into.

More progress will be made next week when I get the gas and when the beer wears off :cheers:

Cupman29 · Jul 27, 2012

Loving the progress matey. Keep up the good work!

LewisTaylor · Jul 27, 2012

Morgan the car looks f*cking awesome, i do love a 172 cup

I now see what you mean about the aerocatch's through the number plate, looks good, will you have anything else holding the bumper?

Kenny.s · Jul 27, 2012

Nice choice on the Mig,
I spent ages trying to decide what to buy. I eventually narrowed it down to ESAB but was torn between the machine you've bought or the C200i Caddy.
In the end the Caddy won, the transformer based set is probably more resilient and perhaps a better long term investment, also has a higher duty cycle but for what I was doing the portability of the inverter based machine sealed the deal. Had it for about a year now and it's not missed a beat, been a brilliant wee thing, so many jobs i've been able to with it. Although since I bought a TIG I've been tending to use that for pretty much everything I can.

x8mrk · Jul 27, 2012

Great idea on the front bumper, i may copy that

MG cup · Jul 28, 2012

It's getting there, no just the catches and the side clips that hold it to wings. Iv made a small plate aswell that bolts to where the upper slam panel was so i can secure the grill after choping down for ITB's filter. Thats my thinking anyway.

Im going to get threaded bosses made up so the catch pins arent as long and weld that to lower slam panel, will help if i end up nudging cars while racing, its perfect as is for a road car tho, really secure.

QUOTE=LewisTaylor;8863265]Morgan the car looks f*cking awesome, i do love a 172 cup

I now see what you mean about the aerocatch's through the number plate, looks good, will you have anything else holding the bumper?[/QUOTE]

MG cup · Jul 28, 2012

Yeah Kenny hopefully it's a good machine, should be alright being an ESAB, heard nothing but praise for them and parts are easily had.
I was looking at your machine aswell as the c160i caddy but I would have had to wait for the 200 caddy so I settled on this for the extra £50-£75 it cost me as I thought it would last long term. My only problem is i wish it was that little bit smaller/lighter to be more portable as you say.

I would have only got a Sealey or SIP or the likes for the price so I'm well chuffed with that. Out of interest, do you find your caddy overheating or any issues welding thicker material?

Kenny.s · Jul 28, 2012

A lot of places only seem to stock the C160, mine had to be ordered in but only took 2-3 days.

I've only got 0.6 & 0.8mm wire so that obviously limits the amps, from memory the most it'll run on 0.8 wire is about 120A, thats with it in Qset mode. I've used it on some heavy I beams and box section (turned up to max) and it never showed any signs of getting too hot. If I was doing heavy gauge steel more often I would get some 1mm wire as penetration on 5-6mm is a bit marginal with 0.8 but for what I was doing I wasnt too worried.

MG cup · Jul 28, 2012

I should have got the caddy really in hindsight but I'm sure I won't be disappointed. I got a reel of 1mm with the welder, I was told that should be alright to weld my cage, I'm not upto speed with the technicalitys do you you think that will suit?

Kenny.s · Jul 28, 2012

I wouldnt be having second thoughts about what you've bought mate, what you've got there is a cracking machine that will last for years.
Technology is great when it's working but if this wee Caddy ever goes Pete Tong, chances are it's not going to be a cheap thing to sort!

What thickness and material is the cage made from?

MG cup · Jul 28, 2012

Yeah hope it lasts a lifetime for me as it won't be getting worked too hard.

From memory it's 2 & 3mm wall thickness and is CDS mild steel.

Tony Hunter · Jul 28, 2012

Just looking through this, that's the last place I would put any kind of bumper catch, especially if you are thinking of racing.

Good build so far.

Kenny.s · Jul 28, 2012

You probably could do it with 1mm but I would have said 0.8mm, thats pretty much the default for 1-4mm +/-
With 1mm you'll obviously be using more amps to melt it so more chance of blowing a hole, but if the fit up between all the tubes is good and tight then you should be ok.
2.5mm CDS tube is pretty forgiving stuff to weld, piss thin T45 tubing is less so!

MG cup · Jul 28, 2012

What would you have done Tony, I needed it quickly removable to go on trailer and get into my lock up.

That's the best position I could find without the possibility of deforming the bumper shape, further apart would have been better i guess but its solid as is gives me place to mount reg plate if i decide to get an MOT on it and will be more so when i get long threaded bosses welded into the slam panel. There pointless at the sides as bumper is held already and with all the guts removed from the bumper it doesn't have the same securing points.

MG cup · Jul 28, 2012

Kenny I think the wire thickness was the problem I was having while tacking the cage in and it was a poorly maintained and bad quality welder also. Was having to turn amps right up and would blow through on a longer run.

0.8 is what will be used now.

Tony Hunter · Jul 28, 2012

You are obviously a very good welder, think of something.

Maybe Dzus fasteners, have a row of them,

Being located at the front, you will be breaking then quite often, and at £30-£40 a pair, you'll soon get fed up of paying that out.

It's only 4 bolts to remove bumper anyway, we put a little thin tin sheet under the front of ours, just to stop it flapping about.

Kenny.s · Jul 28, 2012

You'll need 0.8mm at some point if you intend to do bits'n'pieces on the car so might as well get it now.

I was trying to tack a few things onto the boot floor today, there's some stupidly thin sections on these cars! Had to change to 0.6 in and even then i had to go canny.
Guess it's how they're designed, double/triple/quardruple skins where it matters and feck all where it doesnt!

Tony Hunter · Jul 28, 2012

Kenny, it's a fact, these cars are made from chocolate.

Another Clio 172 Cup track/race build.

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