I've just been tagged in it lol. It appears I was correct.
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Get out in the garage and get stuck in mate
We need to sort a trackday out for next year when you get yours back together! I thought the same I need to find a washer 0.75mm thick and that will spin it 180 degrees so just where I need itHaha yes Chris it probably will lol!Very snazzy!
With all this painting you'll end up with and orange car with silver bits!! Not a silver car with orange bits
I'm only kidding, the bits and bobs are a nice colour!
Satisfying doing the work your self?
Yeah really satisfying and really enjoying it! Working in the cold is tough but I need to man up
Haha! I've been taught well by FredI can see by your pictures that you've picked up the BTM technique of putting tools in back their right place after using them....:rasp:
Thanks Neil, Lets get yours finished after i've done mine
I did listen to you though with the 7:1 ratio on the effect of weight with CoG so thats why I powdercoated the subframe and rear beam to keep the extra weight low :rasp:
Yes Dan you are right
Fred said exactly the same thing to me so I popped the engine in tonight when I got home and sure enough you are correct ! Good spot Lol! I'm daft, spent ages measuring the inside of the sump to make sure it wasn't going to be in the way of the windage tray, oil pump etc but didn't even think about the bloody subframe
!
SharkyUK
ClioSport Club Member
Ah - you got me! LOL!Haha I think I need to brighten it up a little more
Enjoying the write-up as usual, James. Thanks for continuing to take the time to document your progress. A bit of a bummer about the sub-frame but it's the best way to learn, right?
Haha lol
Thanks Andy, Haha yes not a big deal really just a waste of a few quid for the boss but I can deal with that in comparison to other money i've wasted on this car lol
Thanks Andy, Haha yes not a big deal really just a waste of a few quid for the boss but I can deal with that in comparison to other money i've wasted on this car lol
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
^^^^^possibly the understatement of 2012 that! Lol!
Haha what can I say lol!
lol!Yeah that sensor was never going to fit! Lol
Unfortunately Mike the sensor boss is touching the subframe
182cup & 172 racecar
I'd say that's rather a big, oops James. Hope you get it sorted.
Unfortunately Mike the sensor boss is touching the subframe
I love the way you thought "oh look a big scollop out of the sump, thats handy I can fill it full of sensor in that space thats just wasted" without actually stopping to notice WHY there is a big scollop out of the sump to miss the subframe.
Sort of thing we ALL do once so no shame in it, but at least from now on you will check things like that first
and like Dan said you (well he, lol) have noticed in plenty of time which means at least you wont be in a rush fitting the engine before an event and then notice this.
Can't you just alter the subframe?
Remove it for lightness
Haha
Thanks mate!Exactly the sump was made for it thereI love the way you thought "oh look a big scollop out of the sump, thats handy I can fill it full of sensor in that space thats just wasted" without actually stopping to notice WHY there is a big scollop out of the sump to miss the subframe.
Sort of thing we ALL do once so no shame in it, but at least from now on you will check things like that first
Yes exactly! Glad it was noticed now and not later so thanks
P.S Just got off the phone and the gripper problem is sorted!
It would need massively chopping about so just not worth itCan't you just alter the subframe?
Its all sorted now though I got another boss made this morning so just need to weld it in and blast other sump to clean it up!
| Teeth in | Teeth out | Gear Ratio | Change ratio | Overall Gearing | MPH @ 7500 | MPH @ 8000 |
| 11 | 34 | 0.324 | 0.070 | 35.8 | 38.1 | |
| 22 | 41 | 0.537 | 1.659 | 0.116 | 59.3 | 63.2 |
| 28 | 37 | 0.757 | 1.410 | 0.164 | 83.6 | 89.2 |
| 34 | 35 | 0.971 | 1.284 | 0.210 | 107.3 | 114.5 |
| 37(mod) | 33 | 1.121 | 1.154 | 0.243 | 123.9 | 132.2 |
| 39(std) | 31 | 1.258 | 1.295 | 0.273 | 139.0 | 148.3 |
| Crown | Pinion | Diff ratio | ||||
| 60 | 13 | 4.615 |
There are the figures for you mate, based on standard and modified 5th gear
Sorry, forgot about 7850rpm, was still based on my own engine with 7500rpm normal change point and 8000 limiter.
| Teeth in | Teeth out | Gear Ratio | Change ratio | Overall Gearing | MPH @ 7500 | MPH @ 8000 | MPH @ 7850 |
| 11 | 34 | 0.324 | 0.070 | 35.8 | 38.1 | 37.4 | |
| 22 | 41 | 0.537 | 1.659 | 0.116 | 59.3 | 63.2 | 62.1 |
| 28 | 37 | 0.757 | 1.410 | 0.164 | 83.6 | 89.2 | 87.6 |
| 34 | 35 | 0.971 | 1.284 | 0.210 | 107.3 | 114.5 | 112.4 |
| 37 | 33 | 1.121 | 1.154 | 0.243 | 123.9 | 132.2 | 129.7 |
| 39 | 31 | 1.258 | 1.295 | 0.273 | 139.0 | 148.3 | 145.6 |
| Crown | Pinion | Diff ratio | |||||
| 60 | 13 | 4.615 |
Thanks for that mate just the job ! Still going to need 5th for craners with either then
! Still going to need 5th for craners with either thenYou will lose 12% torque when you change into fifth on the standard gearing versus the closer.
But I guess you will only ever be doing that for very short periods of time anyway and unlikely to be at a point someone is going to overtake you, so given that its probably best to stay standard gearing and then at least you wont be pinging the limiter at spa if you race there.
But I guess you will only ever be doing that for very short periods of time anyway and unlikely to be at a point someone is going to overtake you, so given that its probably best to stay standard gearing and then at least you wont be pinging the limiter at spa if you race there.
It's still going to be above 6000rpm when I change into the std 5th isn't it? Should have plenty of go up at that rpm
I'm thinking std 5th and keep the flexibility of big top speed
I'm thinking std 5th and keep the flexibility of big top speed
I was understanding it all until that haha! That confuses me but I kind of understand
Basically mate, the torque at the wheels is a product of the gearing.
So two cars, with the different boxes.
Put them both into fifth when you run out of rpm in 4th, and the one with the standard gearing will have 12% less torque at the wheels after you change gear.
So both engines will have the same torque at the engine, so standard gearing is 6000rpm=160lbft and new gearing is 6800rpm=160lbft (for example)
But because one is turning a taller gearing, it will accelerate more slowly.
Think of changing up a gear on your pushbike, the taller the gear the less you accelerate when you stand up on the pedal, even though you always weigh the same.
So two cars, with the different boxes.
Put them both into fifth when you run out of rpm in 4th, and the one with the standard gearing will have 12% less torque at the wheels after you change gear.
So both engines will have the same torque at the engine, so standard gearing is 6000rpm=160lbft and new gearing is 6800rpm=160lbft (for example)
But because one is turning a taller gearing, it will accelerate more slowly.
Think of changing up a gear on your pushbike, the taller the gear the less you accelerate when you stand up on the pedal, even though you always weigh the same.
Right, im probably making this too complicated.
Torque after the diff = torque at the engine / total gearing.
So for 1st gear you have:
160lbft / 0.070 = 2285lbft of torque
So if you were to connect a lever directly to your driveshaft, thats how much force you would have to apply to it with a torque wrench in order to stop your engine turning it.
In 5th gear you would need
Standard setup (0.273) = 598lbft on the same torque wrench to hold your own engine back
Modified setup (0.243) = 658lbft on the same torque wrench to hold your own engine back
(so actually my 12% figure off the top of my head was slightly wrong, its actually only a little over 10%)
So in fifth gear, with the new gearing, it will be equivalent to if your engine made 10% more power/torque than it does (but only till you ping the limiter of course, then its the same as you having no power to accelerate with at all of course!).
Bit like if you are in 5th and im in 4th and we are both doing 100mph then even if we both have the same engine I will outdrag you due to the mechnical advantage of my being in a lower gear.
Torque after the diff = torque at the engine / total gearing.
So for 1st gear you have:
160lbft / 0.070 = 2285lbft of torque
So if you were to connect a lever directly to your driveshaft, thats how much force you would have to apply to it with a torque wrench in order to stop your engine turning it.
In 5th gear you would need
Standard setup (0.273) = 598lbft on the same torque wrench to hold your own engine back
Modified setup (0.243) = 658lbft on the same torque wrench to hold your own engine back
(so actually my 12% figure off the top of my head was slightly wrong, its actually only a little over 10%)
So in fifth gear, with the new gearing, it will be equivalent to if your engine made 10% more power/torque than it does (but only till you ping the limiter of course, then its the same as you having no power to accelerate with at all of course!).
Bit like if you are in 5th and im in 4th and we are both doing 100mph then even if we both have the same engine I will outdrag you due to the mechnical advantage of my being in a lower gear.
Ahhh okay thanks for the explanation mate I understand now ! So ideally I want the different 5th then but i'm not sure if 130mph will be enough. Am I right in saying my car will get to 130 quicker than a std F.D and std 5th would?
! So ideally I want the different 5th then but i'm not sure if 130mph will be enough. Am I right in saying my car will get to 130 quicker than a std F.D and std 5th would?Yes your car with the new std fifth and new FD will have approx 15% more torque in 5th than the std 5th/std FD setup would.
But 10% less than it would on the new FD and new 5TH
So if you were at a track where you know you wont go over 130mph, you would be better off on the new 5th and FD, but if you are at a track where you are going to do over 130, you would be better off on the std 5th with just the new FD
Just the FD alone will be a very good improvement in fifth gear acceleration.
Easiest way of putting it is that new FD and new 5th will be almost exactly (.243 vs .239) as the old 4th gear was, both in terms of how it accelerates and in terms of its top speed.
Where is you go new FD but old fifth, it will be like being in gear 4.5 on your old box?
But 10% less than it would on the new FD and new 5TH
So if you were at a track where you know you wont go over 130mph, you would be better off on the new 5th and FD, but if you are at a track where you are going to do over 130, you would be better off on the std 5th with just the new FD
Just the FD alone will be a very good improvement in fifth gear acceleration.
Easiest way of putting it is that new FD and new 5th will be almost exactly (.243 vs .239) as the old 4th gear was, both in terms of how it accelerates and in terms of its top speed.
Where is you go new FD but old fifth, it will be like being in gear 4.5 on your old box?
Right I see
Let's say my car with engine X and the standard JC5-130 gearbox accelerates from 0-130 in 25 seconds
Would my car with engine X and the 37/33 fifth gear with 13/60 final drive accelerate from 0-130 in more, less or the same time as the above?
Still just trying to get my head around the actual impact to acceleration I do understand all the rest I think
Thanks for the explanations mate
Let's say my car with engine X and the standard JC5-130 gearbox accelerates from 0-130 in 25 seconds
Would my car with engine X and the 37/33 fifth gear with 13/60 final drive accelerate from 0-130 in more, less or the same time as the above?
Still just trying to get my head around the actual impact to acceleration I do understand all the rest I think
Thanks for the explanations mate
Right I see
Let's say my car with engine X and the standard JC5-130 gearbox accelerates from 0-130 in 25 seconds
Would my car with engine X and the 37/33 fifth gear with 13/60 final drive accelerate from 0-130 in more, less or the same time as the above?
Still just trying to get my head around the actual impact to acceleration I do understand all the rest I think
Thanks for the explanations mate
Thats harder to answer than it sounds.
We need only consider from 0-120mph as effectively from 113-130mph it would be exactly the same, just would be in fifth now instead of 4th.
On the way upto 113mph, you will now have an extra gear change, which makes it sound like it will slow you down, but in reality you will have more mechanical advantage for large sections of that, from 0-37 for example, it will be a straight advantage on the new lower gearing.
Then from 37 to 42, it will be slower, as you will have to change into 2nd which takes some time, and then you will be in 2nd not first so accelerating more slowly.
But then from 42 to 62 you will accelerate harder on the new setup. And so on...
Its actually something you will need some fairly decent software to work out, based on adding in your gear ratios and drawing your power curve etc, but based on a lot of personal experience, I would say its going to be faster, impossible to really quantify exactly how much by, but probably over a second.
I see mate that makes sense! I will suck it and see, the reason I wanted to know is that if i'm hitting 130 this season and then it accelerates to 130 quicker next season then i'm going to need more than 130. Mmmm will have to get my thinking cap on and have another look at the data Thanks again for all the explaining
Thanks again for all the explaining
sbridgey
ClioSport Club Member
disco 4, 182, Meglio
I am not sure if it is relevant but i think red bull either this year or last year geared their cars to reach top speed earlier on a straight than the cars around them.
The cars were able to accelerate up to the top speed much quicker than the chasing pack that by the end of the straight the chasing cars who were hitting a higher top speed only just caught them because it took them so much longer to get up to speed.
I might be talking complete b****cks though.
The cars were able to accelerate up to the top speed much quicker than the chasing pack that by the end of the straight the chasing cars who were hitting a higher top speed only just caught them because it took them so much longer to get up to speed.
I might be talking complete b****cks though.
Yes its amazing what they can do, the main thing for me is just to make sure with the 130 top speed i'm not going to be bouncing off the limiter at any circuits if I am then I need to keep the std 5th gear and the limit will be 145mph it'll also save £65ish so not looking like a bad option
I see mate that makes sense! I will suck it and see, the reason I wanted to know is that if i'm hitting 130 this season and then it accelerates to 130 quicker next season then i'm going to need more than 130. Mmmm will have to get my thinking cap on and have another look at the data
You should have slightly more power next year if the cams are timed better too.
So I would assume you will be getting to slightly more than that.
That said a couple of seconds on the limiter (as per the red bull example) does no real harm, not like anyone is likely to sneak past at that speed, too easy for you to block them really.
Yes a good bit more i'm hoping
I think std 5th is the safest bet probably
I think std 5th is the safest bet probably
182cup & 172 racecar
I'll just drive the arse off mine, that'll do me.
Sounds like a plan
IMO getting to the top speed quicker is more beneficial as a whole on most UK circuits over limiting on a few straights 'potentially'
In reality in most club racing the over taking is done on corner exit and on the first 85% of a straight, it's not really the done thing to stick one down the inside last minute unless someone runs out of talent.
Are cammed and throttled clios getting to 135 down the back straight at Silverstone for example anyway?
In reality in most club racing the over taking is done on corner exit and on the first 85% of a straight, it's not really the done thing to stick one down the inside last minute unless someone runs out of talent.
Are cammed and throttled clios getting to 135 down the back straight at Silverstone for example anyway?
182cup & 172 racecar
No
120
120
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I hedged my bets on this when I picked the FD for the gripper box, as it stands, or at least on paper, my car should do about 125 @ 7500 in 5th
1st 49
2nd 68
3rd 86
4th 105
If and when I ever build a proper engine for it that'll safely go to 8k (ish) it should have the legs to cope with most circuits I'm likely to have a go at.
1st 49
2nd 68
3rd 86
4th 105
If and when I ever build a proper engine for it that'll safely go to 8k (ish) it should have the legs to cope with most circuits I'm likely to have a go at.
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182cup & 172 racecar
125 max It's not all about top speed.
