233 bhp 228Nm dyno results:
this has to be the highest on the road NA example of the f4r to date?
how have you got the torque so high?!
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this has to be the highest on the road NA example of the f4r to date?
how have you got the torque so high?!this has to be the highest on the road NA example of the f4r to date?
By measuring it in NM mate
224NM is 165lbft
With his longer rods and new exhaust manifold etc, I bet there is a significant gain still to come though.
By measuring it in NM mate
224NM is 165lbft
With his longer rods and new exhaust manifold etc, I bet there is a significant gain still to come though.
ah yeah, missed that at the top pf the graph! Still, 233hp from an na f4r!
Highest NA I recall for a road one is Yozzas old cup, 240 something iirc
I have a 237bhp road f4r and a bit more in a rally one. Interesting thing is that it takes a lot of revs to get the peak bhp and torque is quiet low for the spec. With itbs you would get more torque as the rs 2 seams to produce lower torque figures than itbs so needs lots of revs to get 230 and the expense of solid lifters. Solid lifters in the likes of mine or Godneys would produce a bit more top end I would imagine as hydraulic lifters struggle after 7.5k.
nice car by the way.
nice car by the way.
Circa 300 is what the Proton Satrias (F4R) put out and that's still single throttle.
Its always said on here that F4r's are hard to tune which they're not, I don't think F4R's are any different to a c20 or Zetec for tuning, it just hasn't been done in the mainstream yet.
I.e a Millington diamond engine is around 20-30k iirc. Or a proper screwed together c20 is 20k, I don't see the difference.
Its always said on here that F4r's are hard to tune which they're not, I don't think F4R's are any different to a c20 or Zetec for tuning, it just hasn't been done in the mainstream yet.
I.e a Millington diamond engine is around 20-30k iirc. Or a proper screwed together c20 is 20k, I don't see the difference.
agree, s2000 engine are 280bhp on single tb. Price !!! So very good and a pointer for solid lifters for people on here with comp engines.
I disagree, they are hard to tune.
The lifter and rocker arrangement is thousands to replace to get them to rev and even then you have terrible piston speeds cause the capacity is so much from the stroke.
It is possible but it's definitely hard. Build any f4r power level from 240 up that you want and it would be thousands cheaper to use most other performance 16v 2.0 units instead. Ie XE or duratec or honda etc.
8500rpm from an XE requires:
few hunfred quid rods
few hundred quid solid lifters
how much to make an f4r turn the same reliably?
Yeah but what would those mods give you? Less than an F4R cammed anyway. Same spend.
Any good competition engine will have finger followers and solid lifters so that irrelevant. Same with piston speeds, crank and rods are changed to combat that. At certain levels other engines are cheaper to get a certain BHP yeah I agree.
It just annoys when its said on here that tuning F4R's is expensive, tuning any engine properly is.
I have a mate with a 280bhp XE in his Westfield which is 12k's worth for a bare engine, no auxiliary's, management, ITB's etc.
I have another that has 10k's worth of Zetec in his Caterham, again bare engine.
Its expensive to tune N/A for high output. Nobody has extensively played with F4R's at a non factory/works team llevel so were just scratching the surface with generic high comp ITB builds that are seen on here.
Thats why I like this project, he's going his own way and that's what's needed for these very unknown engines.
anyone really just don't think f4r is hard to tune, in fact I think it's easy now and 240 ish motor would be the same price. Just more options with xe's etc.
As I've already said, far dearer to rev an f4r and they don't respond as well when you do. More to an engines performance than just a peak figure.
f4r is just fundamentally a worse design.
Agreed. Revs and torque both matter.
Long stroke mean a cap on revs to 8k really but that's not the point. The point was that they are hard to tune vs xe or ztec etc but that's not the case. A 240bhp engine would have to use the same spec parts so don't see its cheeper than an F4. Infact a Zetec head is crap and may need more work than an F4 to get 240 hence not many people use it for ford higher power applications and just use a Duratec as its head is very good.
Start with a st170. Very easy to do a 240bhp zetec then. Even getting a standard zetec head to a good enough spec only costs £600-700 for bigger one piece valves, solid lifters and port work.
The issue the zetec has with revs is the oil pump. To make a truely reliable one you need a dry sump. Although most of the failures come from imbalance of the bottom end and undamped crank pulleys.
With the duratec you need to go forged and at that point you may as well go 2.3 for the extra torque.
Another ford engine you could you is the rs2000 engine, a lot better than people think and has decent tuning potential, again a 2.3 bottom end is available. The problem is availability of tuning parts.
Of the three the duratec has the better bore:stroke.
^^^^ because 2nd hand parts are more readily available as there is a bigger market. Buy new or have someone do it and its much of a muchness.
Most of the ford figures are inflated that you see all these tuning companies spouting, realistically a proper spec duratec is doing 270bhp and not the 300bhp they are supposed too. And again that's big money to do a good duratec that the likes of mk2 rally boys and catherhams are using.
Most of the ford figures are inflated that you see all these tuning companies spouting, realistically a proper spec duratec is doing 270bhp and not the 300bhp they are supposed too. And again that's big money to do a good duratec that the likes of mk2 rally boys and catherhams are using.
If you believe that then your in cuckoo land.... To get 270bhp from a duratec will cost you over 10k all in. The above spec will get you 230bhp. I have enough friends that I compete with that to back it up to.
Depends what power you actually want to tune to, while an F4R isnt too hard to get to 240, you hit a bit of a wall not far from there really, getting 280 for example is far easier on the XE and even more so on an S2000 or Duratec.
Its like I said, solid lifters are only 300 quid for an XE, and no rockers to worry about, so it means you can get the revs up and revving an engine is useful if you want to make power. So its thousands cheaper to get a decent spec head on an XE than on a F4R.
Duratec only in name
Well badges as duratec but yes as you say it's a ztec with better rods and pistons. Still no better easier / cheaper to tune than a f4r.
You can just fit solid lifters in the f4r and cap at 8k, xe would need dry sump for8k plus anyhow. Be interesting what JRE would want for a similar output to the PM Sandys engine. Don't think you will find the xe's cheapest.
We take off the head, bolt the exhaust manifold to the head, then put the head back, and set the timing again. Otherwise it was not possible to install the manifold to its place ...
Ah okay, I get what your saying. I thought you just had to remove the cam cover.
Looks good, did you make your own cam caps for timing the camshafts to the engine?
You don't need a dry sump for 8500rpm on an XE. That's what I used to rev my nova to.
JRE are upto 325bhp and 240lbft now on their top spec N/A XE. That's 17500 quid including everything, ecu, alternator, exhaust manifold, even a new starter motor. How much for the same on an f4r then mate?
Its all much of a muchness in price afaik, all expensive. I don't know much about XE's technically or JRE but they are not getting those stated figures from a 2000cc engine without charging.
You were risking it for a biscuit then with no dry sump, one of the first things my mate had to do to his and its only 280bhp, maybe not driving it right?
You were risking it for a biscuit then with no dry sump, one of the first things my mate had to do to his and its only 280bhp, maybe not driving it right?
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
I'll find out off a well known zetec tuner how much he would charge for a big hp n/a zetec or a duratec. He's one of my best mates so finding out shouldn't be an issue.
Also Morgan, to dial the cams in you just need an old cam cover and drill 2 big holes in it. That way you can set the cams in the normal way. Obviously you need to fabricate a solid lifter as well to get it correct.
Also Morgan, to dial the cams in you just need an old cam cover and drill 2 big holes in it. That way you can set the cams in the normal way. Obviously you need to fabricate a solid lifter as well to get it correct.
its not 2.0 anymore, the XE lends itself well to two things the f4r doesn't, increased rpm and increased displacement. Both are great for increased performance so long as you aren't rules limited on either.
You were risking it for a biscuit then with no dry sump, one of the first things my mate had to do to his and its only 280bhp, maybe not driving it right?
mine was turbo and around 600bhp so less need to keep it on the boil but it still saw 8500rpm often (and survived an 11k mechanical over rev), but obviously never for long as when you have that much power it means that even in the higher gears the time
it takes to get from 8000 to 8500 is a mere blink of an eye. Lol.
Yeah I'll look into Mark, it won't be a few years until I go verniers (or I hope so) so I have a while, cam cover chopped into 3 bits is an idea though.
Yeah what you had wasn't exactly a competition car Chip and I bet you went through a few engines too with that power, turning XE's longitudinally doesn't help oil surge either or most engines tbh.
I personally think with the time and development the other engines have had in the mainstream its quite a good engine, it will never be bigger than a 2100cc which ain't great.
Yeah what you had wasn't exactly a competition car Chip and I bet you went through a few engines too with that power, turning XE's longitudinally doesn't help oil surge either or most engines tbh.
I personally think with the time and development the other engines have had in the mainstream its quite a good engine, it will never be bigger than a 2100cc which ain't great.
