E36 3.0 ITB Race Build

[NorthloopCup]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Same block and reasons for not using an m3 engine in the first place are earlier in the thread



Hmmm, yeah I have no doubt they would work, its just doing them correctly and the messing about getting the right ones from overseas that's putting me off at the moment. Also need to consider if it has future issues and the head needs to come off are they going to last being undone and torqued again etc

Even more so being able to get a complete M50 for sub £100, a whole lot less than the timeserts.

If your struggling to find someone to do the timeserts let me know and I'll point you in the right direction mate. They use the proper timeserts as well = far superior to w**k helicoils.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

I'm at a loose end at the moment mate.. Drop me a PM if you don't mind?

 

[JamieG]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Gutted to read this Jord, this mean your going to be doing Cadwell on the old engine?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

We'll see Jamie, I've got a few plans in progress!

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

So after much deliberation, and the realisation I would kick myself if there were any head gasket problems in the future with the repaired threads, I decided to try and find a steel block to use. M50B25 engines are identical bar the material used for the block, and the crank/pistons/rods. All the M52 stuff drops straight in, along with the piston diameter being the same.

Then on Friday I spoke to a breakers I've used before, down Norfolk way, to see if he had an already dismantled M50B25 lying about, or any at all for that matter. He had one which had suspected head gasket failure, had been removed from a car which was running last week and removed a couple of days ago. Perfect considering I only needed the block and nothing else.

After a bit of a chat, I agreed to go and collect it on Saturday. 500 miles later, for the sum of £75, I had the said M50B25 in the back of the car. He couldn't be bothered taking any of the ancillaries off so I ended up getting a full set of spares again, alternator, PAS pump, sensors etc etc - not bad for the money really!

So today was about getting it out of the car, stripping it down completely to a bare block (along with organising all the spare bits properly). Removed all the ancillaries before taking it out with the crane..

Next up was to remove the rocker cover, vanos, timing chains, etc. Residue of head gasket mayo everywhere, which was a nightmare, but no concern really as I just want the block.

Removed the head bolts and lifted the head off. The head gasket had failed between cylinders 3 and 4. No doubt the aluminium head is warped too, but I won't be using it anyway.

Got the short motor on the stand, removed the pistons/rods and then the crank, leaving me with a bare block..

One last thing was to weigh it, as a comparison to the M52. It came in at 40kg, compared to the 22kg of the M52. Not a huge difference, and I can live with an 18kg deficit for a bulletproof block.

Loaded it into the back of the car ready to drop off for facing/honing tomorrow. Hopefully it will be turned round quickly and I can bolt it all together!

 

[Chi]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Great news, 500 mile drive for a £75 part? Not cheaper to get it delivered?

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Subscribed!

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Great news, 500 mile drive for a £75 part? Not cheaper to get it delivered?

Probably not much different cost wise for a 200kg pallet. Plus I needed it to be a bare block by today, I'd be waiting a week for it to be put on a pallet, picked up and delivered..

 

[DanielJames]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Love the updates mate.

The logic with picking up the parts is something I can relate to, considering I drove 200 miles to yours to pick up a £10 part lol.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Love the updates mate.

The logic with picking up the parts is something I can relate to, considering I drove 200 miles to yours to pick up a £10 part lol.

If I wasn't in a rush for it to be built up I would have probably waited for one to come up closer - but really it would have cost another £60-70 for a pallet to be couriered. It cost less than that in fuel..

Dropped the block off early this morning at a local place, hopefully have it back in a day or two.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Well that's the engine build put on hold now. Just got the M50 block back from the machine shop and the bores are too worn to use again...

So all its good for is scrap!

It was refaced then put on for honing. Where the top ring finishes on the piston the bore is 7-8thou wider. Above that it's the normal 84mm size. The dark area is where the honing machine didn't even touch the bore..

All six cylinders are the same. Don't think I could get any worse luck... Becoming a big joke now!

 

[Joe#]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Gutted for you mate

 

[JoeyD]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Dreadful luck!

 

[welshname]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

That's a bit of a shitter. So...SR20DET time?

 

[matt_132]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Don't give in mate, the amount of work you've put in it would be criminal

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

It will get sorted, just whenever I find the right block. Not 100% sure how thats going to happen yet, but we'll see. Just lucky the current engine is still working OK so no real big issue!

Never the less I got a full day in on it today, sorted out a lot of small jobs and loose ends. Handful more things to do over the next few days and it's ready for Cadwell next Saturday

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

So the past 4 days have been sorting bits and pieces out ready for Cadwell on Saturday.

I wanted to change the rear N/S driveshaft as I thought it was noisy, but after closer inspection, the bearing had gone again!!

I went and got a bearing the next day, pulled it apart and went to fit it. Although, it turns out its the actual stub axle that is worn, and causing the bearings to fail quickly. It should be a press fit into the bearing - this obviously isn't..



Anyway, no good putting that into a new bearing. I still have the entire old rear subframe, so I removed the stub axle from that and checked it over before going to use it. Turns out that was knackered too, although it had a bad wheel bolt thread not the actual bearing face. By this point I just wanted it sorted so I went and got a new stub axle from ECP.

Other jobs included fitting new handbrake cables, swapping the driveshaft once the stub axle had been sorted, welding in harness plates for the passenger side and generally sorting out the interior. Wiring has been tidied, both seats fitted, harnesses fitted. Few other small jobs to do but pretty much ready for the weekend with it now.

 

[Chi]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Gutted about the replacement engine mate, sure something will pop up.. Great progress elsewhere

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

So in the weeks coming up to Cadwell, I needed to get a few other bits sorted, aside from messing about with engine blocks. Replaced the oil/filter first off. Then I noticed a bit of a whine from the PAS pump under load, so wanted to swap it out for the M3 one I had sourced a while back. The advantage with this is you don't need to space the pump out when using the M3 oil filter housing (for the oil cooler), like I did further back in this thread, as its designed to just bolt straight up. As I also noticed, this pump is the same as an M50 item, so either would work for a bolt on solution.

328i Pump on the left, M3 Pump on the right. You can see the difference in size for the mounting face. Drained the PAS fluid, fitted it and re-filled. All good.

Next up was to weld in the harness eyelet plates for the passenger side - the drivers side had already been done when I got the car, as originally only ran the one. With the car now just being used for track days, I pulled all the carpets out, removed the sound deadening and cleaned everything. Once the eyelet plates were welded, they were sealed and painted to stop any rust.

When I took the car to Oulton Park last year I had some vibration through the steering wheel at speed, so suspected the wheels with RSR's fitted needed balancing again. I took them to be balanced, and it turned out two of them were actually bent/buckled with flat spots to the inner rim. The yellow parts of the rim are what they marked as being the culprit..

Luckily I have a few of these wheels spare, so had the tyres swapped over to those... yet more scrap!

With the carpets now removed, the E36 has an uneven floor pan, with a massive drop in the middle near the brake pedal. I cut a piece of 2mm steel to shape, which hooks onto the throttle pedal bracket, and sits over the seat mount studs. Painted it black and put some grip tape over before fitting it to the car.

The centre console was trimmed down, new handbrake cables fitted and adjusted, both seats bolted in and my TRS harnesses fitted to the new eyelets. A quick check over and it was good to go for Cadwell.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

With the forecast looking great for Cadwell, loaded all the spares and fluids, filled with fuel and got over there early with the usual bunch. After a quick check over, tyre pressures set, we got out on track. In summary, I didn't have to touch the car all day, covered ~170miles and it literally lapped all day.

• E46 067 steering rack is quite different. Slightly heavier feel and its quicker - much prefer it.
• M20 Flywheel seems to have made the engine get through the revs sooner, you're not having to wait for the engine to pick up at high RPM. Clutch feels great too.
• The 595 RS-Rs went on and on without any issues, and haven't really worn much at all. Three days on those now.
• Zero oil usage when on track - although, I think this is due to the high RPM and the oil is just draining back out of the catch tank straight away, rather than coming out the breather as vapour.
• Brakes are brilliant, really easy to work with and zero fade. Plenty left on these RC5+ too. Need new discs now though, the current ones are about spent.
• The oil got hotter than Oulton, by about 10deg C. When following other cars in traffic I saw up to 115-7C on the gauge, whereas Oulton only saw just over 100C. The oil cooler was doing its job, but I don't think a 19row would do any harm instead to be safe. Oil pressure always maintained 60psi peak regardless of temperature.

Unfortunately the GoPro decided the memory card was corrupt once I got home. It seemed to record fine all day, yet the recordings were corrupt when I got home. 2-3 of the early morning sessions were fine. Turns out the 'new' 32GB Class10 card I got is actually a fake 2GB card, so any data recorded after 2GB appears as corrupt. Great! Put a few bits that were viewable together, including hitting a post with the camera coming onto the start/finish straight, but thats about it for this time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6Ah93rVLZw

Great faultless day once again, can't wait to get it back out there with it now - the new engine needs doing, once I decide were to go with the new block, but apart from that the rest of the car is spot on.

 

[Chi]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Brilliant mate...

 

[.GAZ.]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

How does the Beemer compare to a basic track-spec 172 mate?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Well I've never had a 'track spec' 172 as such. Had the Mk1 with 172 engine and running gear, and I'd say this is quicker than the Mk1, much better to drive also. The Mk1 used to outpace a normal 172 quite easily.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Couple more pictures from the weekend.

The hunt for another M50 block continues.

 

[welshname]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Looks really good on track. Fingers crossed you find another block soon.

 

[matt_132]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Saw you speaking to bimmer bits on FB. He's not all that far from me if I can help at all.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

In all honesty dude hes useless. I've had issues with him in the past which I won't go into - its more so he tries to take on more than he can work to I think.

Chris at CRM has an M50 in sort of bits, which isn't too far from me, but I ideally want him to agree to remove the head before I commit. Don't want another set of parts lying about!

 

[matt_132]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Not the first person to say that to me mate, hoping to get a headlight off him, can't be that hard eh?!

Hope it gets sorted soon, must be a pain when you were so close to finishing the build.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Yeah, I've got no plans for the next day as of yet so not in a major rush. Its going for some welding/rust repair on the battery tray and a few other areas this weekend, so once thats out of the way I can hopefully concentrate on sorting the engine once and for all!

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

So after a bit of patience, I've got hold of two good condition, unworn M50 blocks. Dropping them off at the machine shop in the morning and they can choose which is the best of the two - along with a quick hone and skim and its good to go.

 

[Eddie.]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

How many is that now, 4?

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

1st M52 Alloy Block - Head Bolt's F*cked
2nd M50 Cast Iron Block - Worn Bores
3rd M50 - Above
4th M50 - Above also!

Hopefully, will never need one again! One of the above will get used and the other can remain a (good) spare

 

[Budgie]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Coffee table time. Lol

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Plenty of coffee tables, lol.

In a stroke of luck I got one of them back this afternoon from the machine shop, honed and skimmed. In good condition and bores are spot on. The other is also a good spare too if its ever needed. Long weekend to put it together now

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Right then - after getting the machined block back it was quite clean after being in the washer. Cleaned it up some more and painted the block..

Spent some time removing the oil pump assembly, pistons/rods, bearings and crank from the scrap M52 block. Once I had it all out and wiped down I got the new M50 block on the stand ready to assemble the bits. First up was the M50 piston oil jets, slightly different to the M52 items as they sit under the main bearing, instead of having a separate oil channel in the block.

Fitted the mains bearings, then the crank, caps and torqued down. Everything covered in Graphogen again.

Took some time to check the rings again, and gudgeon pins/circlips. Once I was happy they went into the block..

Connected up the rods to the crank and torqued. Spins over nicely as before with the M52 block. Fitted the flywheel end plate to the block with the new gasket and sealed.

Came to fit the oil pump / oil baffle and ran into a few issues. The M52 baffle is meant for the aluminium block, so does not match up to the M50 block at all. Although, when the M50 baffle is fitted, the crank hits it, due to the longer stroke from the 2.8 compared to the 2.5. The oil pickup bracket is slightly different too and does not match up to the pump either.

The last main problem being the oil pump - even though both M50 and M52 items are the same, the mounting is slightly different between the cast iron and aluminium blocks. One of the holes is less than 10mm out so thats a no go. The M50 pump is required, which I've not got, so that stopped play for today.

When the M50 baffle is raised from the block by 2-3mm it clears the crank, so I'm going to space it away slightly to get the space required. With it being steel, I'l weld a small bracket on (the same as the M52 baffle) to allow the oil pickup to mount properly also.

So much for everything being a 'direct swap' as quoted by some people on various forums - should have learnt to never believe what people say until you've done it yourself by now!

 

[matt_132]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Well that's a shitter. My HG is weeping so I'll have to replace it at some point. CBA with stripping threads and the problems you've encountered though!

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Yeah, I guess it's a 50/50 chance of happening. Especially if the HG is leaking.

I've got the short motor complete now, putting the head on shortly. Made the M52 parts work on the M50 block, there are a few pretty easy workarounds.

Hopefully get some more done this afternoon.

 

[f0xy]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

The difference in the M52/M50 oil deflector/baffle can be seen here, size and mounting holes. This is because the aluminium block has extra bracing/webbing where the cast iron block does not..

Oil pump pickup usually attaches to the baffle for support, with this bracket..

I drilled it off the M52 deflector, then positioned it on the M50 one and welded into place after cleaning it up.

I could have used the M50 OEM bracket, which bolts onto the one of the main bearing caps and pokes through the deflector, but I couldn't find it, must have thrown it out.

With the oil pump issue above (holes not lining up), I either had to run an M50 pump, or open one of the 8mm holes out to 10mm on the M52 pump. I decided to do this to see if everything lined up (and to save a long drive to pick one up) - luckily it worked perfectly and the pump bolted right up.

Lastly was the clearance issue with the M52 crank and M50 deflector. It turns out because the M52 uses different rod bolts, the head of the bolt was ever so slightly catching the plate in a single location. This was soon sorted with a bit of 'adjustment' to the deflector, and now there is ample clearance. After that was sorted, I fitted the chains and guides before putting the timing cover on..

With both crank end plates fitted, the sump could go on..

Got it off the engine stand and onto the frame, easier to work on the engine and allows the flywheel to be fitted for timing. Cleaned up the block face and put the new headgasket on..

Then dropped the head on, put the new head bolts in and torqued it down. The full torque and angle procedure held fine, success :drunk:

I fitted the old DMF flywheel temporarily to use for timing. Next up was the camshaft trays and hydraulic tappets. Cleaned everything and then coated with graphogen..

Span the engine over to just shy of TDC, then dropped the cams into place, fitted the caps and torqued it all down.

Took the engine to TDC and locked the flywheel with the pin. Locked the cams also.

Fitted the upper chain tensioner, upper chain guide and upper timing chain as per the BMW manual..

I had previously split and cleaned up the VANOS unit, removing the old seals.

New 'Besian Systems' seals, fitted to the piston then assembled..

Fitted the VANOS unit properly, then bolted to the head with a new gasket..

Last job was to fit a new main chain tensioner spring and seal, then remove the timing locking pin and camshaft blocks. I span it over by hand 10-15 times, then dropped the pin back in to the flywheel at TDC. The camshaft blocks went straight on so the timing is set. Happy with that.

Just got the last various small bits to do tomorrow, including crankshaft seals, new water pump, thermostat housing, rocker cover etc. Getting there now!

 

[Jonff]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

Good progress Jord. See you're building a collection of Bimmer bits as big as you did with Clio bits. Lol. Many trackdays planned for next few months?

 

[brisa4984]

Re: E36 Track Day Hack (v2)

wish i knew how to do this stuff.

great build