waste of money if you ask me, I had one for a while and it didnt make a diff! Anone wanna buy it?)
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ecotec may waste fuel
- Thread starter Captain Slarty
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waste of money if you ask me, I had one for a while and it didnt make a diff! Anone wanna buy it?)
Different RPM though, that can have an affect as the fuelling can be different so like Joe says, doesnt prove anything.
If you actually think about what this device does, it adds air, but where it adds air it isnt really seen by the ECU so whilst the ECU has adjusted everything it needed to this is adding a bit more (running leaner?) which for some cars isnt very good (ie mine cos it naffs the engine up)
You may see the benefits on a carbd engine with a lowly ecu but not on a modern fuel injected engine in which most manufacturers are now adding a swirl chamber within the cars system (The STi7 has a swirl chamber )
So as Joe said before, it does nothing, which it does, nothing, higher octane fuel will make your car run better and burn cleaner.....
Tony
there are lots of variables that you have to take into consideration thou, air temp, engine temp, oil temp, water temp... lots of things can affect the car and the way it changes emissions.
Now say you would have added the ecotek first and the readings afterwards would have been the opposite? now you would have been hacked off with that wouldnt you???
Basically, with a big gust of cool air flowing over your engine you could have got the same effect.... no 2 same moments.... its too random an event so as its been said, nothing proven it could be down to any random event and not the ecotek which are a waste of time and money on a modern engine. (super unleaded did more for my car, gave me more performance and an extra 40 miles per tank so would like to see an ecotek do that..... not a chance!)
Tony
Joe, hes answered over at the Ecotek Forum
i DARE you to try one on your 172
http://www.ecotekforum.com/phpBB/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=205&forum=1&1
Every single car at LeMans would be running the ecotec even if it gave them only .5% added range.
Were there any ecotecs in the race?
Come on guys. Every manufacturer spends billions on R&D and this bozo comes along and beats them? And they wont buy his product instead? Get real.
OK,
octane, means better burning fuel gives more power usually and for me better MPG
Ecotek... adds air, makes leaner running, leaner running on my car is not something i want as it causes det and kills my engine.....
hmmmmmm let me see....
put ecotek on car, blow engine up... not good idea is it?
Most fuel injected cars run a complicated ecu with sensors telling it what sort of air mixture it needs, now bypassing this isnt a good idea as the ecu (even thou that tim said it would detect it) it wont because its adding more past the sensor that tells you this!
On carbd engines its probably ok, on fuel injected with engine management systems its a waste of time and can be dangerous.
These are a waste of time and money and will make no difference in performance on a rolling road, if anything you will loose performance as its robbing you of fuel!
Basically just run a higher octane fuel, with a performance engine you will get more benefit from it along with better combustion and cleaner burn (ie less emissions as your not throwing as much unburnt fuel back out of your system).
My last word on the subject (for now ) is that redex is better for your car than an ecotek as atleast it does something for your car!
Tony
So, its all down to turbulence eh ?? LMAO !!
Sorry Brun, but no, I will not buy one, I would not even fit one if it was free.
Fuel is injected at the back of the valves (idealy) in the cylinder head - or extrmely close to it.. ecoteks magic venturi effect on a small portion of air entering the plenum has zilch effect on anything. The air, by the time it reaches the inlet ports has travelled the length of the runners.. there is NO turbulent effect to occur at the runner end.
WHERE are the graphs showing ANY power increase on ANYTHING.. there aint any..
WHERE are the proven test results.. not someone saying I tryed it it worked something OBJECTIVE, not SUBJECTIVE.
This is probably the most ludicrous sales pitch I have ever had the misforune to come across.. seriously ..
Smoke n Mirrors doesnt even come close for this.. no results, no nothing.
Sorry all you beleivers.. but you would probably buy snake oil if someone said it worked ..
I bet the same company could supply moth balls to add to the fuel tank like in the late 50s.. hee hee.
And, no, I am not stuck in my ways Chavvs lol.. I work on facts, something that ecotek, conveniently, dont have.
and, please, feel free to post my reply as written.
Hi TB. (Tony)
excellent input on octane, however, let me add a wee bit.
higher octane is SLOWER burning.. more controlled... it will do nothing without ignition adjustment. Modern ecus can compensate via adaptive knock sensing / variable storage. so as to take advantage. (The longer burn requires the spark to occur SOONER)
Joe.
Ta Joe i knew it was something like that
Basically this device is bypassing sensors that actually tell the ECU what air/fuel mixture it should be getting, what it is getting is something different and thus the reason Brun had lumpy idle?
The ECU didnt know what was happening and couldnt compensate..... how much do these things cost? 15-20 quid? damn thats an easy way to naff 5ks worth of engine up!
Tony
Almost everybody seems to think that the higher octane petrol packs more power or energy somehow. The fuel companies do nothing really to dissuade these guys from buying the expensive stuff because they can charge more for the higher octane brews.
Octane is really just a measurement of the resistance to knock/pink. If your car isnt knocking on 95 dont bother with 98. You will notice a performance gain if you have a knock sensor and your car was knocking/pinking and was running a retarded timing as a result.
Look inside your fuel cap. Dont bother buying anything with a higher rating unless you have upped the compression ratio or added a turbo. You are throwing away money otherwise! You are not gaining any performance or mileage!
It gets better though m8..
the ecotek guru on the forum is now saying its the turbulence that does it..
shhhhhhhhhhhesh..
me thinks they need to study basic 4 stroke design and airflow characteristics..
there only sales pitch is that, apparantly they have ripped off (sorry - sold units to) 20,000 unsuspecting people who WANT it to work, but are not interested in any facts. The magnetic fule flow polarisers probably sold more, until people got over the fad and starting looking at facts and figures...
When the flag drops, the bullsh*t stops..
as Eddd rightly says.. where are the units on race and performance cars ?... errrrr.. there aint any... where are the results.. errrrrrr there aint any..
People WANT it to work if they have paid there dosh... thats about it really.. many products throughout the ages have sold based on cult type beliefs that are NOT supported by any factual information.. and, this certainly is one of them...
How many muppets bought those stupid ground earth straps for the rear bumper ??? LMFAO !!.. that was ANOTHER load of bollox..
Sorry to be blunt, but..
They try to talk the talk, but, they definitely cannot walk the walk..
ooooooooooo, the emporer has no clothes !!!!.. and that was HUNDREDS of years ago in a fairy tale written to advise of scams such as this one.
Joe.......
Joe
Joe,
re the earth straps for cars.... hmmmm rubber tyres?
Wasnt it suppose to stop you getting travel sick or something stupid? so why not just take the tables you can get
Eddd,
i do actually get better performance running SUL or Optimax then again my ecu is set to run on 97ron fuel and the improvements are better mpg (i normally get over 320miles out of a 60ltr tank on a modified uk impreza turbo! and i dont drive slowly either ) and ive seen over 40mpg out of the car too!! (but that was during the fuel crisis, ive never seen that happen again for some reason? )
The figures for performance on my car with the PPP are 237bhp (UL fuel) and 250bhp with SUL, now tested on SUL the car ran 249bhp on a rolling road so it was pretty close but i got some heat absorbsion in the intercooler so i could have had a few more BHP rather than sitting there with the engine running and letting it soak into me intercooler.... ooooooops! (must take some water next time )
Tony
Hi Eddd,
re higher octane in a lower octane engine..
if no ignition compensation is made.. it CAN reduce power slightly.
the slower burn of the higher octane fuel causes peak pressures to occur later - after TDC - top dead center - so some of the power is wasted as the pressure in the cylinder to A?F mix is the power producer.. if the burn is not finished in time the effect is continued burning partly into power stroke.. at a much reduced pressure.
so, yes it can have a very negative effect.
Joe..
Tony,
You are right about the higher octane in your Scooby. And I believe there is a procedure to follow if you have had to load up with lower octane and the stock unit has more or less reprogrammed to allow for it for it, ie. backed off the timing and boost.
You will get better mileage with the premium fuel as you are able to run advanced timeing and get more bang out of every stroke.
What Im against is all the poor buggers out there with normally aspirated low compression, knock sensor-less lumps who think that by paying for the super they are getting more HP, mileage or whatever. they are getting ripped off and I think in some cases, they are actually happy getting shafted.
Just like the guys who buy these ecotek units.
The funniest thing is that if you have a big engine you are supposed to link two up in series! Think about it. In series? Are we talking electricity here?
Ed
Eddddd - hmmm thats interesting that because I have fitted an Ecotek and know that it works, you lump me in with those who believe that higher octane fuel is like some kind of power boost formula or something. If you look back in the archives you will see that almost as soon as Optimax came out I wrote to Shell and called their bluff on the claims they were making for it and they replied basically admitting that it would only make a difference on a car with an adaptive ECU that actively advanced the ignition for more power when this was possible, rather than pulled the timing once it got into the danger zone.
I know about fuel octanes and I know my car, Ive been driving it for long enough. I know what mods work and what dont, regardless of whatever claims are made for it.
This is because rather than endlessly chewing the cud over something giving my theories and ideas to all and sundry - I actually have always gone out and *done* the mod to find out if it works. If it works, good. If it doesnt, thats too bad.
It constantly amazes me how up in arms people seem to get because of their fundamental lack of knowledge about scientific technique, or perhaps refusal to follow it. Here IMHO is how to disprove a performance enhancing mod...it goes like this...SUGGEST A THEORY/REASON WHY IT WONT WORK - TRY IT FOR REAL ON YOUR OWN CAR AND SEE IF YOU ARE CORRECT - IF THE MOD WORKS THEN YOU NEED TO CHANGE YOUR THEORY.
Joe and your fellow doubters; by all means you can turn this common-sense procedure all on its head and try and debunk something without actual real results, but please dont tell people that theyre imagining things, when theyve actually gone out and done it and can tell the tale.
From my generally neutral standpoint on things I just tell it how it is. If something works I keep it. If it doesnt I get rid of it (Ive been through a lot of different induction systems for this precise reason). I have kept my Ecotek on, because IMO it works full stop. It has given me a consistent 4 or 5 mpg better over the years that Ive had it on when Ive been driving sensibly, and its livened it up when Ive wanted to go fast. That is good enough for me, although I dont doubt that it may only work on certain inlet manifold designs because of the nature of the device. Nevertheless, on my 16v, it works, so there is no theory that will convince me otherwise.
You could tell me that black was white and up was down, but if the facts dont seem to agree, then the theory is wrong, its as simple as that!
Nick,
Not wishing to get in a pissing match, but I would suggest that if the device in fact works, and gives you those results, you were in all probability running just a bit rich to start off with.
Ive been involved in motorsport for twenty years and we are always looking for the edge. Id go out and buy something that actually cuts fuel consumption 20% and boosts power tomorrow and would be willing to pay £1,000+ for it.
Believe me, every car on a race course would have one of these things, or one for every cylinder, or valve, or whatever if it made the slightest bit of difference!
These guys are fleecing you. Plain and simple.
Ed
Joe, if we have time at the RR day, and Ken agrees, i would be happy to use my car for 2 power runs, one with Ecotek on, and on another i would turn it off
that way you would have two power plots so you could have a look at some hard evidence and get your conclusion from that
Look guys,
you are all beginning to fall into the "its better for your car" category due to the fact you feel its better for your car because its running leaner and giving you the feeling its running better....
The fact is that if your car runs leaner its more prone to det, det kills your engine, engines cost 5k+, so whats better, 8-10k miles worth of what you thing is better running or a new engine?
simple fact is a new engine is more expensive.... point taken yet??
Fooling the ECU is BAD for your engine, the ecotec does exactly this! ie will knock thousands of miles off your engine
What you think is good isnt actually good so take that crap off your car and let it do what it was suppose to do, run with the ECU
Tony
follow this thread it explains it all
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=127957
If you dont want to follow it, it basically says it sucks big time!
Tony
Ok, heres a pointer or two for the guys that think it works... and sorry, but I mean think, not know.
Brun posted 2 small emission graphs apparantly showing a DECREASE in emissions.. the lower graph is at idle.. yet, Brun himself was told by ecotek that the unit does not operate at idle ??... x files huh ??.. a magical change... do dooo doo dooooo...
Now, Nick et al..
if the unit was to increase fuel economy.. and again, the Ecotek, are NOW saying in response to the post I made here, that the economy is gained by more complete combustion by the turbulence effect ..
you cant have it both ways guys lol..
IF the unit, somehow, magically, caused a more complete burn, then the following MUST apply.
More complete Burn= more fuel turned to power production for a given stroke cycle.
the imaginary econy gains MUST therefore come from YOU holding BACK on the GAS ??.. some hope lol..
The effect of that HAS TO be that for a given stroke cycle more power is produced due to a more complete burn. If you dont HOLD BACK on the gas, then you MUST have more power..
So, all you BELIEVERS.. you are getting a proportional increase in power at the same factor as the decrease in fuel consumption you , and ecotek, wildly claim.
I say again....... SNAKE OIL , BS, NO WAY.
show me the power graph that clearly shows the benefit ??.. you CANNOT have better burn without better power..
WHERE are the graphs on the site extolng the virtues of this little miracle ??.... ooooooops. there aint..
face it, it sucks big style (sic) .. but the sucking does nothing, apart from relieve you of pound notes.
Joe
there is now a cracking reply on the ecotek thread from the head honcho himself.. !!!
check out the thread pointer he links to .. ROFLMAO !!!
when asked about if and how it is supposed to works
This is getting into the realms of commercially sensitive information – you doubtless appreciate that firms such as ourselves dont hand out copy our product kits to all and sundry and if you are not happy with the information we provide then perhaps you will feel it appropriate not to buy the product. Your reference to the Patent would also lead us to believe that your interest is more than just a general retail query.
http://l2.espacenet.com/espacenet/viewer?PN=GB2336404&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD
link to patent..
Now the guru is trying to say that ford follow his thinking aghhhhhhhh...
also
In any event, the impact of the leaning is less significant than the economy gains (10% fuel gains from a 5% leaning are commonplace and test data available from our web site shows even more significant improvements). So, far from being extraordinary, any A level student would confirm that there is more at work than a change in AFR.
The guy should be a politician.. he cant even answer simple questions.. like.. SHOW ME THE RESULTS ??.
I bow to the audacity...
Joe
last one for now, it gets better..
the official test results were done by
a company that no longer exists or can be contacted (Very convenient)
and
a service manager at Evans Halshaw garage...
it is interesting to note that Evans Halshaw are NOT fitting the devices to customers cars.. or recommending such..
the thot plickens....
I will drop a line to Evans Halshaw PLC, the parent company .. on monday, also to the DTI and Warren Labs parent company.. it wil be interesting to see if they KNOW of the tests, and SUPPORT the claims on the ecotek website..
Joe..
HAHAHA, just read the rest of this thread.....man, i can believe you, JOE, is single handedly destroying a company!!!!
haha, i knew it didnt work, and i left it at that, i cant be bothered to try convince such convinced people.
Fact is, these is no scientific proof or theory to suggest that this thing works. As for people who say "i dont care about theory, i know it works" sorry, but life is based on scientific principals.........governed by them.
the placement of the servo pipe on many cars is offset to one side (like mine and BRUNs), so how can you possibly think that it reaches all cylinders, so 2 cylinders are running diferent to the other 2!
But you also have to think basic air mass flow. the amount of air bled by the valve is so minimal, that it cant possibly affect teh a/f ratio, not induce any swirl....its like trying to help blow up a hot air balloon with a straw!......no affect at all!
and incidentally, this is all that this product seems to be.......HOT AIR.
tumble is produced after the inlet charge flows over the valve.......the end.......and swirl theoreticaly created is negated right there and then.....if any WAS indeed created.
p.s. and joe! i can correct one! thing one you!!! YES! the theoretical best injector positonning is as far from the valve as possible (@ high engine speed where max power is created) as the fuel absorbes the heat from the surrounding air, effectively cooling teh charge....hence motorbike shower type injection systems and F1......yes.....im now waiting for a correction i hope is not goin to come...please god, let me get this right!
Hi Ben M8
you are correct.. PROVIDING the power is achieved at high rpm.
the lenghtening of the injector placement in high rpm units is to allow time for mixing as the gas velocity is higher. it does have a benficial coolig effect, but, the main reason is the mixing
and Brun, by all means.. ask ken to do 2 runs.. providing your ecu has been reset between runs.. otherwise the adaptive table dont have time to react to the negative effects of the ecotek.
Joe..
PS, my only interest is in informing people of the realities of increasing power. I have said many times here, if a device is sold to increase power, then prove it, without proof, you may as well buy a chocolate fire guard.
what sort of injector angle do you think works best for mixing then? i mean, theoretically, the angle the fuel is sprayed in shoud be againt teh flwo of air....but of course, this wont work at low rpm......not even high rpm really.
anyway,
i know this guy who is running 2....YES 2! of those electric turbo thingys.....he swaers it give s him like 40bhp!!! haha.....so funny.
and a mate has also removed the headlight on his golf to make a ram air inlet......haha.....@100mph, he swaers that it gives him 10bhp!! how the hell can you tell!!
I think that IS a difficult one to answer Ben..
we need to go back to basics really.
the sole purpose of the injector is to add the fuel to be burnt to the air ingested or forced.
there is a finite time take for the fuel to mix and also variables such as temp, density, pressure of fuel etc come into play.
A rough(ish) srface to the induction system can help keep fuel away from and from condensing on, the wall of the induction tubing.. but it is not perfect.. so an attempt is made to inject the fuel at a point that will minimise the chance of the particles becoming unsuspended in the flow.
That is a simple explanation of why SPI is not as efficient as MPI.
as for angle.. well, one would presume that the angle that offered the least restriction into the airflow would be best, but because of the above re tract wall effects, most manufacturers have adopted a slight down angle towards the inlet valves. The 172, along with a lot of modern vehicles, actually has 4 injector nozzles per injector unit.. you get 2 spray patterns on each each inlet valve.. or, more correctly, as the vavle is open(ing) at the point of spray, then you get 2 spray patterns at the point of entry to the chamber.
The new renault f5 engine uses EDI (my french is crap, but something like essence direct injection) ie - it fires fuel directly into the combustion chamber at an EXTREMELY high pressure..
woudnt be good for my turbo though lol.. my Dynamic CR would probably cause the fuel to go back to the tank
Joe
well.....thats kinda what i was expecting......
im never poslidhed the inlet ports.....boundary tubulance....seen an experimental ilmore engine that has golf ball style dimples to aid turbulance...i have even seen rifling and directional sanding!
all in the search.....for POWER!!! YES!
i love wacky ideas....there more fun than conventional....
i gotta get to work on my rotating barrel valve train system!
right then boys and girls, if an ekotek doesnt lower emmissions how come when my lamba sensor was knackered the car was well over the limit on idle, but running it was within the legal bounds?
im not saying it gains power, or even smooths ya engine out, just that it must lower emmissions
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