Megane 225/230 engine fuelling questions

[Danith]

OK - I await all the 'don't be a fanny' comments and 'its 50/50' or 'my mate's has been on 3246236 bhp with no issues' :smile: - I'm not a gambling man, I don't do 50/50, but yes, I am a fanny.

So my Megane R26 is currently on ktec turbo back with sports cat, 630cc injectors, ramair open cone, pro perfekt recirc and 60mm intercooler. It made 276bhp 301 (capped) lb/ft at EFi.
After now reading up on numerous megs now failing on blown engines recently (mainly due to cyl 1 fuel starvation causing ringland failure, rather than bent rods due to torque), I've decided I don't want to be driving around in a ticking time bomb as I really don't need the expense or hassle for a few extra bhp/lbft, so I'm going back for a detune, it's not like I need all that power - think it wasn't far off being perfectly balanced after the sports cat but hey ho - it definitely needs mapping to suit the bolt ons to be safe and have the emissions light for SMF mapped out.

So would like to know regarding leaving the 630s in - although RS tuning did recently publicise that oem injectors are at almost 100% duty even on a standard map (plus oem injectors are about as reliable as Conservative's NHS promises), so 630s may be better to reduce the risk of fuel starvation - however, do they put more stress on the fuel system? Really it all sounds down to a poor fuel rail with no return - but then how does mapping increase the instances of engine failure if it's down to a crap rail!?

 

[imprezaworks]

Girl

 

[Danith]

I'll start a group buy style count:

1. @imprezaworks

 

[sladen1720]

Female

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[bloke]

speak to chris and trust what he says.

 

[Danith]

Female

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F**k a duck you're on here too!? ha. Defo to do with fuel starvation innit? You have got away with it a lot by sounds of things! That time at Aintree wasn't it cutting out due to fuel starvation?

 

[Danith]

speak to chris and trust what he says.

Yeah that's the plan. Going back for a check on the 28th after I've had my clutch done. Literally days after having mine done I've seen at least 5 bloody meg 2's with blown engines for one reason or another. No doubting the quality of his maps.

 

[bloke]

could just go with a centre fed rail or a return on the other end to the feed.

 

[Danith]

could just go with a centre fed rail or a return on the other end to the feed.

Seems to be mentioned a fair bit, no idea how tho. Just weird that if it is down to a badly designed rail then why would it be more prevalent on cars with higher powered maps, wouldnt have thought maps would have anything to so with that

 

[JamesBryan]

I've not heard of blown mk2's for ages, where are all these?

Can't see it being a problem with 630cc's. More like fuel pump failure or low fuel on track.

 

[Danith]

I've not heard of blown mk2's for ages, where are all these?

Can't see it being a problem with 630cc's. More like fuel pump failure or low fuel on track.

Mark Black's blew recently. Darius' this weekend. And at least 3 other lads on the fb pages in the last month.
Don't think its a problem with 630s, just yeah maybe more like a combination of poor rail design, low fuel and loading it up, plus bad luck on premature ringland Wear.
Saying all this there are a load of meganes running the power no probs, even over the magic 300lbft. I'd just like to lower the probability as I'm no mechanic and would be relying on traders and my credit card for any potential failure.

 

[JB21]

I've not heard of blown mk2's for ages, where are all these?

Can't see it being a problem with 630cc's. More like fuel pump failure or low fuel on track.

As above likely to be a full pump issue if fuel starvation is being detected, on the MPS engine the fella who tuned mine and most of the forum cars wouldn't touch a map unless the fuel pump internals had been uprated, no sure if its similar on the Meg engine though but a lot of the VAG TC cars have this issue as well.

 

[Danith]

As above likely to be a full pump issue if fuel starvation is being detected, on the MPS engine the fella who tuned mine and most of the forum cars wouldn't touch a map unless the fuel pump internals had been uprated, no sure if its similar on the Meg engine though but a lot of the VAG TC cars have this issue as well.

Yeah I remember he insisted on the uprated fuel pump internals on the mps

 

[JamesBryan]

Tbh i don't see the point in going more than 'stage 1' on these.

My brother's has been on that for 4 years and it's plenty quick enough at 250bhp.

 

[sladen1720]

F**k a duck you're on here too!? ha. Defo to do with fuel starvation innit? You have got away with it a lot by sounds of things! That time at Aintree wasn't it cutting out due to fuel starvation?

Cutting out due to no fuel after that long bend. Ha ha. But yeah you can say I have been lucky. Should have got a black meg

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[Danith]

Tbh i don't see the point in going more than 'stage 1' on these.

My brother's has been on that for 4 years and it's plenty quick enough at 250bhp.

Yep, thats what I'm going for. Plus I'm used to having to work and engine with clios and the honda, its too easy/effortless with 276 and hopefully reduces any potential horrors and stresses on engine components (which were, lets be honest, designed for 230 bhp)

 

[leeds2592]

 

[JamesBryan]

Yep, thats what I'm going for. Plus I'm used to having to work and engine with clios and the honda, its too easy/effortless with 276 and hopefully reduces any potential horrors and stresses on engine components (which were, lets be honest, designed for 230 bhp) :smile:

Still don't really need to work it even with 250bhp.

 

[Danith]

Ha, I fully expect the abuse

Gonna get bantered at efi thats fo sho

 

[bloke]

Seems to be mentioned a fair bit, no idea how tho. Just weird that if it is down to a badly designed rail then why would it be more prevalent on cars with higher powered maps, wouldnt have thought maps would have anything to so with that

easy enough to sort a rail out, wonder if you could do a twin feed even? one from each end? remind me and i'll speak to chris about it when you go.

can sometimes just be something daft like harmonics in the pump/rail at certain revs etc...

 

[Danith]

easy enough to sort a rail out, wonder if you could do a twin feed even? one from each end? remind me and i'll speak to chris about it when you go.

can sometimes just be something daft like harmonics in the pump/rail at certain revs etc...

Way over my skillset! Ill only be there an hr or so on the 28th he said so sure it'll be reet once checked with new (working) Clutch.
But yeah that sounds interesting to consider between you two who are a lot more in the know than I am!

 

[TimR26]

I run 330bhp and 360lbft with my 630cc injectors on the standard fuel pump and rail. Yes, it's forged with a hybrid turbo but shows what it's capable of. I'm at 90% duty so doubt you're anywhere near the limit of the fuel system.

I would speak to Paul at RS Tuning about whether to keep the 630cc or not, sure he'd be happy to advise.

My opinion though would be to keep it as it is and not worry about it.

 

[bloke]

Way over my skillset! Ill only be there an hr or so on the 28th he said so sure it'll be reet once checked with new (working) Clutch.
But yeah that sounds interesting to consider between you two who are a lot more in the know than I am!

what time you booked in for?

 

[Danith]

First thing chum. 10am.

 

[bloke]

message me the day before to remind me and i'll pop along.

 

[Danith]

message me the day before to remind me and i'll pop along.

Will do pal nice one

 

[JamesBryan]

Bringing this to Oulton on the 29th or the Civic?

 

[Danith]

Bringing this to Oulton on the 29th or the Civic?

Ha you read my mind! I've booked the megane on as I wanted to see what it's like. It's only 3 x 20 min sessions innit, so might still do. Otherwise it's the chav wagon for a nurburg warm up.

 

[JamesBryan]

Ha you read my mind! I've booked the megane on as I wanted to see what it's like. It's only 3 x 20 min sessions innit, so might still do. Otherwise it's the chav wagon for a nurburg warm up.

Yeah f**k it, it's only a few sessions.

 

[Danith]

Will be at EFi the day before to change my tampon anyway.

 

[masekwm]

Can see why you'd do it tbh, why run at the absolute limit when you can have just as much fun with 40bhp less.

 

[Danith]

Can see why you'd do it tbh, why run at the absolute limit when you can have just as much fun with 40bhp less.

Its not really at full limit, its been capped for safety.
I don't want a fire breathing monster at all, ruins the balance of the car.
Had the exhaust, sports cat, etc all done and 630 injectors cos oem are shite.
Then a custom map to suit. Will get it dropped to around 240/260 and torque as well. As I said, I'm more used to the clios and civic and working them hard.

 

[Gray]

F4R's have always been prone to weak ring lands... Even on the 172 / 182 NA engines.

IMO it' just potluck if you break or not, you don't know the history of the cars which have broke. They could've been running lean, poor maintenance , bad mapping "stage 37 generic map M8"

I suspect we are seeing more failures now due to a mixture of age / mileage.... weak injectors, weak fuel pumps on a dead head system (returnless) and a car being hammered around on track

My r26 was running 300hp with 630cc injectors on stock internals for 2.5years / 30,000 miles... numerous track days, trips across Europe etc. without issue - I was fulling expecting it to go 'bang' and it never did.

 

[Danith]

F4R's have always been prone to weak ring lands... Even on the 172 / 182 NA engines.

IMO it' just potluck if you break or not, you don't know the history of the cars which have broke. They could've been running lean, poor maintenance , bad mapping "stage 37 generic map M8"

I suspect we are seeing more failures now due to a mixture of age / mileage.... weak injectors, weak fuel pumps on a dead head system (returnless) and a car being hammered around on track

My r26 was running 300hp with 630cc injectors on stock internals for 2.5years / 30,000 miles... numerous track days, trips across Europe etc. without issue - I was fulling expecting it to go 'bang' and it never did.

Yeah its definitely got a lot to do with age and condition now. 10 year old plus most of them now.
Even the n/a f4r suffers from ringland damage?

 

[Danith]

A lad on fb has suggested a modified 182 rail like below

 

[Dan@SJM]

I always advise changing the pump for a new one. I've had quite a few in with shite fuel pressure now.

 

[Danith]

I always advise changing the pump for a new one. I've had quite a few in with shite fuel pressure now.

New oem or new walbro mate? Think it's due to age then that we see so many starve on cyl 1 recently?

 

[charltjr]

If one cylinder is running so lean as to cause damage because of fuel starvation shouldn't the car be chucking an "ooooh f**k" code? Or are those protections removed/wound back by the mapping to gain the extra power?

Genuine question, I've no idea, I wouldn't have thought a relatively modern engine would permit that level of damage without at least logging a fault code but that's nothing more than an assumption.

 

[andybond]

As @Gray said - its pot luck. Same as the rods bending. The rods bent at all sorts of power , the ringlands will do the same.

Ran 313.5 and 325ibft for 2 years and several trackdays. Zero issues.

I would be curious to the cars that have failed have ever run generic maps tbh.

 

[Danith]

As @Gray said - its pot luck. Same as the rods bending. The rods bent at all sorts of power , the ringlands will do the same.

Ran 313.5 and 325ibft for 2 years and several trackdays. Zero issues.

I would be curious to the cars that have failed have ever run generic maps tbh.

Would defo be good to see any common factors.

I think dan@sjm kinda hit the nail on the head a bit. Clio 200 pumps are prone to failure too. Think its tired pumps having a lot to do with it. Gonna look into the walbro upgrade