Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]

[jamie rigby]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

f**king nightmare last night was!!! after all the effort over the past 4 days like you said! sigh

hope you get it sorted over the next few weeks now you dont have to rush to the last minute as the next event is on the 21st may iirc

 

[wilky19]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

ah s**t i forgot you made your own loom.

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Could be the interior loom also yep, mine is a one off loom now (wont match up with yours or Adams loom, was going to try his last night)...ive no idea at all where to start with it though lol!

Plug an RSTuner in and watch the channels? I've just had mine plugged in, quick blip to 4K from the comfort of my car seat, what bliss

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Yeah, ive still got the obd wired up, but no longer have my RSTuner Il have to see if I can find someone local with one!

 

[Torretto]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

I have one!!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Cheers for the PM mate, although Im not really in the market to buy one as I have no need for it apart from just plugging it in to get the diag/codes up. Ive had one in the past and already flashed my ECU with a different setup... I used it on other 172's for diag too, as they didnt need to be locked to a specific car to do diag...

 

[AFerreira_PT]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

after reading about your problem i remembered of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AuaxpWoZPA

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

after reading about your problem i remembered of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AuaxpWoZPA

good reminder, what's your coil pack bolted to?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Side of the cylinder head on a bracket made from 3mm plate...why do you ask?

Im guessing the video is saying that problem is caused by bad spark or bad leads?

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Side of the cylinder head on a bracket made from 3mm plate...why do you ask?

Im guessing the video is saying that problem is caused by bad spark or bad leads?

it is, but you have 2 virtually separate ignition circuits, it's unlikely to have both die at the same time, that said, your 12V might be iffy when cranking? If you unplug one lead you can see how big the spark is whilst cranking ~20KV per inch, so you should be able to jump a fair gap.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Il give it a try shortly - What I dont understand is though, its been started about 10 times since that night when it wouldnt start... It fires up on the second rotation of the engine every time now, and hasnt played up since...

Its kinda worrying as I dont want to drive it anywhere and then it not start either. When it fires up it chugs for a few seconds like its missing slightly, then settles down (something else which it never did in the past) which is odd!

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

did it smell fuelly when it didn't start?

Do you have a drawing of the loom you made? Specifically with respect to grounds.

final one, watch to see if the rev counter moves when cranking.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

It did smell fuelly, BUT thats probably because I had the fuel lines off to check for fuel lol.

Loom wise, how ive done it is....cut all the sensors off - then mounted the ECU inside along with the original engine bay fuses/relays, then extended the wires and reconnected one by one to make sure everythings connected up right. I never got round to finishing the full 'one off' brand new one, as I was trying to get it ready for oulton...

So with regards to earths, the only two are the gearbox-to-chassis one (passenger wheel arch), and the sensor earth from the ECU (Usually goes onto the back of the gearbox, but now is earthed inside due to the ECU move - unsure if that would cause an issue - Maybe the engine/block isnt getting a good enough earth for decent spark/coil through the one earth in the arch?

I was just speaking to Whiteley also, who said his also chugs a bit on startup for a few seconds - he has also relocated his coilpack (from when he first did the conversion) so it has always done it. Although, hes never had it not start though, but that could have been something else I guess. BUT I wonder if the chugging issue is coilpack move related?

My Bracket...

As you can see the actual bottom of the coilpack mounting holes are not touching the bracket, so I guess they are not earthing to the bracket anyway...

Whiteleys bracket is slightly different and only mounts with one hole, but could be the same issue not getting a good enough earth?

Seems likely to be the case, but not so much for the complete cranking and non-start issue. The rev counter was moving (receiving TDC signal) on the day it wasnt starting, but I changed the sensor for a brand new one anyway. Its started every time since and ive drove it today which is the wierd thing...

 

[tricky nicky]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

could be miles out but my girlfriends clio was doing this, turned out to be a faulty temp sensor, wouldn't give a fault code as the car could be -20*c to 100*c due to country, the ecu would adjust the fuelling obviously for a hot or cold start, so would either not start, start rough and run crap or be perfectly fine.

just reminded me as andrew said about smelling rich when cranking

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Cheers for the suggestion - I changed it the other day as my temp gauge on the dash was not reading anything. Reads fine now so I guess it must be working lol

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

I'd consider extending the ECU earth back to the block, I've not trawled through the drawing to be 100% on that.

I'm told that the pack needs a good earth, but then mine sits on velcro and works fine, so maybe that's a red herring.

I think the 2 things to check next time it doesn't start are that the rev counter moves on cranking and that there is 12V at the coil. They should help with the fault finding.

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Cheers for the suggestion - I changed it the other day as my temp gauge on the dash was not reading anything. Reads fine now so I guess it must be working lol

maybe, maybe not.. RSTuner time

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Well there are 3 earths coming from the ECU to that one, all go into one crimp then usually onto the back of the gearbox. Im guessing it could have some effect, as its used as the sensor earths for the ECU itself...

Speaking of coilpack earths, my Inlet was painted last year when I still ran it on there, so there was paint between the coilpack and its mounting surfaces - never had a problem. But then again, there were four bolts holding it down, and I guess it could get some sort of earth through the bolts/threads themselves.

Im sacking it all off anyway and starting again with a 172 Ph1 loom and keeping it reletavely unmodified, its not worth the hassle after this happening the amount of times it has now! Still, it would be interesting to see what is acctually causing it...

With regards to temp sensor, ive ran it without it plugged in before - according to the Renault tech docs it only sets a lower limiter/parameters based on coolant temp

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

I'd consider extending the ECU earth back to the block, I've not trawled through the drawing to be 100% on that.

I'm told that the pack needs a good earth, but then mine sits on velcro and works fine, so maybe that's a red herring.

I think the 2 things to check next time it doesn't start are that the rev counter moves on cranking and that there is 12V at the coil. They should help with the fault finding.

Started it earlier and it fired up first time again...but now Im getting some crazy sort of missfire (sounds like its running on 3.5) and it dosent want to rev up.

Checked lead order and they are all fine, not tried my spare coilpack yet though. Im guessing something is definitely electircally wrong somewhere

 

[Cro]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

I've started and ran with the coilpack pretty much floating in mid air so you can rule out an earth issue with that I guess

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Yeah. Im going to compression test it tomorrow to be sure thats all good. I know the plugs are fine, the only other variables are the coilpack and leads. Oh - and then the entire loom lol.

Got another standard 172 Ph1 engine loom from Whiteley today, so Im going to start that and go from there. Kinda hoping it is a loom issue and nothing else, as Im really getting bored of it now!

 

[Matteh]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

I'd consider extending the ECU earth back to the block, I've not trawled through the drawing to be 100% on that.

I've relocated mine to the scuttle and it earths in there (so to the body)

would it be better to have it earth on the engine?

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

My coilpack is mounted the same and mines fine. i had a magnecor lead go down recently and it caused misfiring sometimes, not everytime. (i didn't think it was the lead and changed the plugs twice) the engine must be earthed or the starter wouldn't turn.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Yeah, still got my gearbox-to-chassis earth on (passenger wheel arch). Starter turns every time without fail.

Going to get this new loom sorted, get it on and then start changing stuff like leads until the problem f*cks off hopefully!

 

[snick01]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

FFS diddnt know you were having issues with this, bad times...

looked smooth driving the purple fez today though haha

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

LOL, I was hoping I wouldnt get spotted in it, luckily it was only for the day ha!

 

[snick01]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

haha, we were heading to KFC and my mate spotted riggerz, then i was like theres jord too, went round the roundabout to catch up with youse but the trafic lights caught me out lol.

 

[jamie rigby]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

LOL, I was hoping I wouldnt get spotted in it, luckily it was only for the day ha!

you know you love it really!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

My coilpack is mounted the same and mines fine. i had a magnecor lead go down recently and it caused misfiring sometimes, not everytime. (i didn't think it was the lead and changed the plugs twice) the engine must be earthed or the starter wouldn't turn.

Just fitted spare coilpack, hanging in mid air. Started fine - no chugging idle and no crazy missfire. I think its something wrong with the leads TBF, as the situation seems to change every time I unplug and re-plug them in. Going to try some standard leads when I get the loom on and go from there I think...

Had a small squeek (rotating bearing sorta squeek) coming from near the alternator, and I was hoping it was the alternator - removed the aux belt and the squeek was still there - I think its a cambelt idler/tensioner

 

[Gray]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

FFS :dapprove:

Sounds like you have as much luck as me at the minute!

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Just fitted spare coilpack, hanging in mid air. Started fine - no chugging idle and no crazy missfire. I think its something wrong with the leads TBF, as the situation seems to change every time I unplug and re-plug them in. Going to try some standard leads when I get the loom on and go from there I think...

sounds so similar to my problem i had

 

[Bloooor]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

I have no idea how you've kept going with this... definitely have more patience than me! Need to go Cosco soon... running out of hot chocolate and I want a massive Cake! :approve:

 

[jamie rigby]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Glad youve sorted the beetle-problem out, s**t news about the pulley!

 

[snick01]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

lulwhut?

 

[jamie_c]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

firstly.. my 1st post

i am seriously not taking the mick but why i have been reading this thread i have drank 8 tins of red bull, smoked 16 fags and my girlfriends mate has give birth (honestly)

you ARE an apsolute legend you have inspired me so much. i salute all your hard work and your patience.

i hope all of your future work goes well as clearly your luck dosent.

good luck anyway for you and the future of your car.

 

[snick01]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

lol, top first post!

now get to the hospital! haha

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

lulwhut?

Car was missfiring on idle and it sounded like a beetle from the exhaust, ha

firstly.. my 1st post

i am seriously not taking the mick but why i have been reading this thread i have drank 8 tins of red bull, smoked 16 fags and my girlfriends mate has give birth (honestly)

you ARE an apsolute legend you have inspired me so much. i salute all your hard work and your patience.

i hope all of your future work goes well as clearly your luck dosent.

good luck anyway for you and the future of your car.

Thanks for the comments, glad you enjoyed the read!



Now then - over the past few days ive started from scratch with the wiring. Completely fresh 172 Ph1 engine loom, brand new interior loom, different fusebox, all out of sight. Its getting there - hoping to have it all back on the car by tomorrow.

The bad news - I think I found the cause of the non-start issue :dapprove:

When I was removing the interior loom, I came to unplug the key barrel (4 wire connector, 2 of which are ingition lives) and I noticed one of the ignition lives was hanging out and not fully pushed into the connector on the interior loom side - like it had been pushed out backwards slightly when the plug had been inserted.

The one in question was ignition stage 2. Seemed to be sat just in position, but at the same time it looked like it could have been an intermittent connection - possibly causing the car not to fire up when cranking... That particular ignition live feeds the engine fusebox and relays (namely injectors/coilpack etc) so may explain why it wouldnt fire up.

I kind of hope that it was that, as then I would know there was no issue with the wiring (even though ive now re-done the whole thing) - but the bad part is that is was a stupidly simple fix

 

[Kneel]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Its a good thing Im in no rush with the 200, I recall you saying you'd help me with my looms when you had the clio's wiring sorted out

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

Lol! Im never touching another loom again if this works!

 

[Kneel]

Re: Mk1 F4R'd Track Car Project [2010 Winter Rebuild]

pft, you fcuking are mate lol I dont have the patience to do it, I only have encouraging words/beer tbh.

I'll leave it on your drive until you agree :rasp: