Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]

[Bren Rogers]

Such an awesome weekend, lets hope for good weather at Cadwell.

 

[f0xy]

Dan/Jord, What gerabox, flywheel, starters are you using? All 172 stuff? Just a thought but it could be a mismatch of parts, starter not ngaging properly and failing prematurely

Looking good Jord, Looks like u need more front camber tho, now its not on the road you can. We went through 7 Valeo/Volvo alternators last year, gave up and stuck a genuine cup one on. They dont like the revs see.

Shame u were using the chicane at the end of the back straight, lake esses is a great corner

Im on a 172 Flywheel, 172 Starter and 1.8(Valver/JB3) gearbox. If it wasnt for my gearbox having the 'bolt in diff plate' I would probably have used a 172 one from the start. Although this is the first time its happened with the starter.. It sounds like its engaging and the motor is spinning but it just sounds like its slipping on the flywheel so to speak. I tested the starter on a battery last night with jump leads and it works fine, so I'm going to pop down and try it on the car/check the flywheel later...

The alternator is the same shape as a Volvo/Mk1 clio, but its actually off an Espace diesel lol, I have to run a small washer/spacer on the bracket to get it lined up nicely. I may experiment with some more camber before Cadwell, thats the sort of stuff I can mess with now the car is in one piece (for now!)..

Yeah, it was better the previous two years without the Chicane, but I suppose it made it a bit different for a change to what its previously been

 

[Jay Payne]

Any idea how much camber its running now?

 

[f0xy]

Quickly measured it with a spirit level last time I was down there... had it upright so it was 'level' sat between each edge of the rim. Diameter of the rim is 381mm, gap at the top was 17mm... giving approx 2.55deg when worked out with tangent.

 

[Jay Payne]

No where near enough if its track only

 

[f0xy]

I bet only 1deg more is available at a push, as the inside of the wheel starts getting close to the shock. Will have to have a look sometime

 

[chrispy.clio]

I bet only 1deg more is available at a push, as the inside of the wheel starts getting close to the shock. Will have to have a look sometime

If thats the case then maybe the use of a small spacer is the answer!

 

[f0xy]

Fitted my old starter motor back to the car the other day, and it started fine. Although, I got a loud squeeking from somewhere around the starter area. I put it down to it being the motor, as it originally wouldnt work at Mallory - thought it could possibly be the bushes inside it. So from that I sourced a new starter motor, fitted it earlier, but it hasn't solved the loud squeek/screech when starting. The noise does not happen any other time when its running, just the initial start up....

 

[f0xy]

Well I had a pretty disastrous day at Cadwell on Wednesday, not getting much time on track at all. Fitted a new steering wheel (finally), added more camber (maxxed the shocks out in their slotted holes) and re-did the tracking. Loaded the car up onto the trailer and set off on Tuesday evening...

I had only taken the one set of wheels with me (slicks) so was hoping for good weather. The forecast kept changing, but luckily it was fine first thing upon arriving at Cadwell...

I needed to lower the bonnet pins for the new bonnet slightly after it kept lifting slightly at Mallory, so got on with that and eventually got it sorted after quite a bit of messing...

Then headed out onto track while it was still dry. Got about 10 good laps in and all was well. I kept getting a hard vibration when turning right but after checking the suspension/wing I put it down to the drive shaft. The rain came around 10am and the track was soaked for a good 2 hours, a 172 put it into the wall after hitting standing water so I just waited around for it to clear up. I managed to get back out at around 12.15, just before lunch for another good session.

I was getting a bit of a smell from the car but didnt think anything of it, thought it was probably another car on track putting out a bit of smoke and left it at that. The weather had cleared up so I went back out straight after dinner. The smell was there again and slightly worse, but again didn't really think anything of it and went back out on circuit for around 20 minutes. Over the course of the laps the smell got worse to a point where I had to come back in (as you'l see on the video) and try to find out what it was.

It smelt 'hot', so started by checking underneath the car, but all was fine. Everything was OK in the engine bay also. Checked behind the passenger seat and the battery was smoking! The battery box was red hot, so we managed to remove the lid to find the battery had expanded by quite a lot.

The battery is only 4 weeks old, and the alternator even less. I ripped the passenger seat out quickly and chopped the battery leads off so I could get it out of the car. The battery had been fine at Mallory so I didnt really know what it could be. After trying to bump and jump start it to no avail I realised the ECU was not working... but I'm pretty sure it can be put down to the alternator regulator failing putting too much voltage through everything killing the ECU and battery. We tried to the ECU on another Mk1 172 to confirm it was not working, and it wouldn't start the other car.

So I gave up and loaded it onto the trailer... leaving me with a knackered ECU, useless battery and broken alternator. Even worse that the battery and alternator are less than a month old!

Anyway, got a bit of (HD) video footage, the 'new' camera still needs configuring properly with regards to upload quality and mic gain, but that can wait until next time...



More soon :boring:

 

[daveski]

Gutted about the battery / alternator. Are they covered by any warranty?

Car looks great in this pic http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/f0xy_2006/---%20Cadwell%20Park%20July%202011/IMG_6093.jpg really mean

 

[Bren Rogers]

Absolutely awesome 20 minute session even though I nearly had my arse blown off by that battery. Absolutely insane grip in the corners on these slicks. Even though it's a treck half way across the country Cadwell Park is a supreme track. Whoever took some of them photos is a pro.

 

[f0xy]

Gutted about the battery / alternator. Are they covered by any warranty?

Car looks great in this pic http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/f0xy_2006/--- Cadwell Park July 2011/IMG_6093.jpg really mean

Yeah the alternator is under 12 months warranty, and the battery itself 24 months. Although, im going to kick up a fuss with the alternator place saying its knackered my ECU and battery and see what they say..

Absolutely awesome 20 minute session even though I nearly had my arse blown off by that battery. Absolutely insane grip in the corners on these slicks. Even though it's a treck half way across the country Cadwell Park is a supreme track. Whoever took some of them photos is a pro.

Yeah it really is the best track in the UK for the Clio, it was a lot better on the slicks as can be seen in the video. Lucky we came in when we did otherwise it may have blown up with you sat on top of it lol.

Cheers for the pics on track, even if there are a few of mine thrown in there too lol.

 

[Jonny1*2]

bloody hell mate. That's dodgy with the battery. Could have been worse I suppose. Where is that on your car? Not sure if dry cell ones explode. :S

 

[Bren Rogers]

bloody hell mate. That's dodgy with the battery. Could have been worse I suppose. Where is that on your car? Not sure if dry cell ones explode. :S

Right behind, almost underneath the passenger seat. I could feel the heat, it was actually smoking and had some form of liquid leaking from it too.

 

[wilky19]

that proper mental with the battery, what have the company who refurbed the alternator said. also is the starter fixed or is it still squelling.

should have kept to original steering wheel must have been one of the only original parts by now

edit: just checked start off thread and its not the original anyway so doesn't matter

 

[chrispy.clio]

Yeah it's a real pain in the ar*s what has happened. Such a waist of a track day even if you get a new alt and Bat from the company.

Your new camera is so much better than your old set up, video see's so much more. Does it have a slightly fisheye lense?

 

[f0xy]

that proper mental with the battery, what have the company who refurbed the alternator said. also is the starter fixed or is it still squelling.

should have kept to original steering wheel must have been one of the only original parts by now

edit: just checked start off thread and its not the original anyway so doesn't matter

Waiting to hear back from the battery company....alternator is being dropped off at the place I got it from in Manchester tomorrow, so we'l see what happens...

Yeah not much left original, I think the only thing is the rear beam!

Yeah it's a real pain in the ar*s what has happened. Such a waist of a track day even if you get a new alt and Bat from the company.

Your new camera is so much better than your old set up, video see's so much more. Does it have a slightly fisheye lense?

Yeah it is miles better. Its a ContourHD 1080p, basically dependent on what mode you have it on (720p or 1080p etc) the angle of the lens changes. I ran it in 720p for Cadwell, which uses a 135deg lense at 60fps. It was basically sat between the two seats on a long mount, needed to be a bit further forward to miss the sides of the seats mind. If you run it at full 1080p it uses something around 112deg at 30fps. I still need to toy around with the rendering/editing, as its not saving it as I want.....need to sort some proper mounts for it too!

 

[chrispy.clio]

Oh so its a bullet camera type of recorder. I love the lense on video from Cadwell.

My Sony HD (hard Drive not High Def) camera cuts out when its attached to my roll cage. Even when i'm not going over bumps or shocking the thing it cuts out and its missed footage from some trackdays which is sooooo annoying. I've tryed changing setting but still cuts out when in my car but is fine when using it by hand.

Anyway, about £200 for ContourHD 1080p, i might invest

 

[AdamAnderton]

Yeah, I got the camera, a 16gb card, 4 batteries and loads of other bits for quite a lot less than that, just keep an eye out for any bargins that pop up. I even modified a USB cable so it would charge + record at the same time if I needed to charge it 'in car'

 

[f0xy]

Nothing is EVER simple.....

Following on from the alternator fault, I took it back and got it fixed under warranty last week. Next was the ECU, I thought it might just be the emulator, so Andrew Cooke kindly sent me one of his spares to try out and see if it would run. It came and i put it onto my ECU, then plugged it into the car and it started. The car wouldn't idle (from cold), the ICV wasn't even turning on or showing any signs of life.

So last night I got my spare ICV back from Wilky to try. Before trying it I replaced the + battery wire which runs inside the car (which was cut off when we removed the battery at Cadwell) and tidied up a few other things. The fixed alternator was fitted back and wired up. I also got hold of an LCD volt-meter so I can keep an eye on it when running and shut it off if it gets silly again. Couldn't decide where to mount it at first, but then realised it would fit inside the clocks...

Small hole in the bottom to feed the wires through...

Then wired it up to a spare ignition live behind the dash. I fitted the spare ICV and attempted to start it, good news is the volt-meter works and the alternator charging, but the bad news is the car still wont idle and the battery light will not go out. Its wired up exactly as before, so it points to a regulator issue AGAIN, sigh.

Also, the car wouldn't run smoothly, sounds like it was running on 3 cylinders. Held the revs at 1500rpm and unplugged each injector in turn. Injector four made no difference to the running of the engine, so I gave it a check over. Connector for the injector was fully in, used a spare lead and plug to see if cylinder four was sparking which it was, so it looks like the injector isn't working. All the injectors were obviously fine before Cadwell...

IMO it points to an ECU issue, maybe the injector driver for number four on the board itself - which might explain why the idle control valve does not work either, maybe the control part of the board for that is damaged too. Gave up after that and went home!

8 days until Donington, great! :dead:

 

[Gray]

 

[wilky19]

if your desperate mate i can pop up with some spare injectors and my ecu to see if either of them fix it.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Have you no spare injectors to try jord? Strange icv had gone dodgy :S

 

[Keith185]

What software are you using to edit the sound on your videos or is that unedited?

I have same ContourHD camera and the sound quality is awful, distorted to hell. Mines 3years old and I know they've made changes to the mic on newer ones.

 

[Laine_16v]

Looks like you've been quite unlucky! (trust me i know how you feel!)

That squeeky noise when you heard at the end of cranking is purely down to the starter motor alignment, they seem to be quite fussy, i had the same problem on my old F7 and also had it on the F4, you have to experiment with the small amount of adjustability you have until it sounds spot on.

As for injector 4 not firing, im not 100% sure on how the stock 172 ECU works, but i suspect it would fire them in pairs so if the injector driver was fried you would lose 2 injectors not 1, which may indicate an actual problem with the individual injector.

 

[sideways danny]

as laine says, the ecu runs semi sequential so you'd lose 2 injectors if it was a driver.

 

[chrispy.clio]

Oh dear mate, sounds a little similar to my engine not ideling but sounding better when revving and it was due to a poor connection on my TPS but it's all a little different because of the ecu and ITB's.

I don't mean to copy you but where did you get your LCD volt reader as the ones I can see on eBay are either 4 digit of look a bit pants!

Fingers crossed you get it running properly soon

 

[f0xy]

if your desperate mate i can pop up with some spare injectors and my ecu to see if either of them fix it.

Heading down there to try my spare injectors shortly, not sure if any of them are any good mind... Il let you know!

Have you no spare injectors to try jord? Strange icv had gone dodgy :S

Yeah, as above

What software are you using to edit the sound on your videos or is that unedited?

I have same ContourHD camera and the sound quality is awful, distorted to hell. Mines 3years old and I know they've made changes to the mic on newer ones.

Its unedited, I had just left the Gain setting as it was on the camera. With it being the 1080p when you plug it into the computer you can configure how it focuses, does the whitebalance, the exposure, the mic gain, etc... Then you save it and its then set on the camera...

Looks like you've been quite unlucky! (trust me i know how you feel!)

That squeeky noise when you heard at the end of cranking is purely down to the starter motor alignment, they seem to be quite fussy, i had the same problem on my old F7 and also had it on the F4, you have to experiment with the small amount of adjustability you have until it sounds spot on.

As for injector 4 not firing, im not 100% sure on how the stock 172 ECU works, but i suspect it would fire them in pairs so if the injector driver was fried you would lose 2 injectors not 1, which may indicate an actual problem with the individual injector.

Il have to p*ss around with the starter then, wierd how its never ever done it before and its been off umpteen times, must have just been lucky I guess. Its missing the dowel on the box for the starter so that could be a reason why, as it used to be there..

as laine says, the ecu runs semi sequential so you'd lose 2 injectors if it was a driver.

Makes sense, will have to try some injectors and see what happens...

Oh dear mate, sounds a little similar to my engine not ideling but sounding better when revving and it was due to a poor connection on my TPS but it's all a little different because of the ecu and ITB's.

I don't mean to copy you but where did you get your LCD volt reader as the ones I can see on eBay are either 4 digit of look a bit pants!

Fingers crossed you get it running properly soon

Il PM you about it later...

 

[f0xy]

Baaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it wont even f*cking start now. Cranks and cranks and cranks and cranks, the usual.

I had taken another (3rd) coilpack down to try out too, but couldnt even get it running on the 'working' one first.. Could not find my spare injector set either, looks like someones had off with them on a trackday out of my box, along with my various tools that have seemed to go missing this year. Lending a set off wilky later, but its kinda pointless at the moment considering it wont even start!

 

[Bren Rogers]

bummer. week to go.

 

[Laine_16v]

Is the fuel pump priming?

 

[f0xy]

Yeh. Its just the same as whats happened every single time when the emulator has failed, I.E. the immobiliser is active. Fuel pump primes........does not run when cranking. No spark and no injectors. Pretty much the same as when the TDC sensor is not working, but I know it is fine as its only just been replaced, ive got a spare too.

I think certain parts of the ECU are fubar'd to be honest, more so with it not even giving the ICV wires any sort of signal to turn on..

 

[daveski]

When are you at Donington? Might pop over and say hello if you get it running.

 

[f0xy]

Week today

 

[Andrew Cooke]

as laine says, the ecu runs semi sequential so you'd lose 2 injectors if it was a driver.

I'm not sure that's the case, the injectors are wired individually. There's supposed to be a fancy algorithm that works out which cylinder is firing even though there isn't a cam sensor.

 

[f0xy]

Well from what it seems the injectors must be individual, as it started, idled and ran completely fine on another ECU just then, without swapping anything over from what was there already, i.e. all my injectors and old ICV.

Tried my ECU on Adams car, does not start. Sooooooo, its the ECU (again, for the 50273th time). Sigh.

Also removed the passenger drive shaft to investigate the knocking I had at Cadwell on right hand turns. The CV is knackered and has lots of sideways/in-out play. I picked up another drive shaft a week or so ago and replaced the outer CV boot a few days ago as it was split. Fitted it to the car and set the suspension again, but it rumbles if the wheels are straight and you spin it. Wierd thing is, if you put any lock on it (either way) and spin the wheel, its silent and there is no rumbling. Got a feeling the shaft is from a 182 or something and is too long. F*cking nightmare.

 

[Daniel]

Do you think its anything to do with vibrations rattling the solder to bits inside the ECU?

 

[wilky19]

at least you know what it is that's wrong with it. its just the ball ache of getting another decoded and emulated ecu in time.

 

[f0xy]

Do you think its anything to do with vibrations rattling the solder to bits inside the ECU?

Nah, some part of it has shorted inside due to the alt putting out like 20v probably! Its completely dead now...

at least you know what it is that's wrong with it. its just the ball ache of getting another decoded and emulated ecu in time.

Yeah, I've got no chance of decoding another and getting it back before the weekend so Andrew is kindly lending me his for Donington, then I'l see what to do after that....... I've been looking at what we were talking about last night too much lol.

 

[bataleon]

Hello Jord!

I am reading this post day by day and since you are having lots of trouble with the ECU, is there a special reason why you didn´t fiitted an Engine Management System(Fuel Tech, Megasquirt)??

Hope you tackle this problems before Donnington!

Best regards

(sorry for mi s**tty english)