Towing car capacities and driving to races

[Codfather]

Hi all,

I'm new to racing and all the associated things that go with it so I apologise in advance for the plethora of questions I'm going to be spamming the forum with.

My project is for rallycross and hillclimbs, maybe some other stuff here and there.

I'm currently in the process of replacing my company car and really want something which can tow the car on a trailer, but with a budget of £18k, options are not broad.
At the moment the only reasonable car I can get within budget with a fairly economical diesel engine is a Seat Leon hatch or estate. Towing capacities across the 1.6 and 2.0 diesel are 1500 and 1600kg respectively (12%) 1800 for all (8%).

With all the weight reduction, I imagine the completed car will be around the 1000kg mark and two axle braked trailers seem to hover around 500kg.

Is anyone else towing a car and trailer with a 1500kg limit or is everyone else using higher capacities?

In an ideal world I'd love to have a big meaty estate with 4wd and a 6cyl diesel but the budget is immovable and the ceiling for towing capacity seems low.

In addition, the lead time on the car seems to be until at least April or May, so I likely won't have a tow car for the first races in March and April.
Has anyone driven a race car (road legal) to rallycross/hillclimb events before? Obviously would rather not, but without any other option I also don't want to miss half the calendar.
Obviously would have someone with me with a support car.

Any help on this welcome as I'm a towing/racing newbie.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[JamesBryan]

You'll get a decent tow car for £18k!

I'd look at something with a 1800/2000kg tow capacity tbh.

Most of the modern estates will do that, BMW 5 series, Skoda, Ford Mondeo.

 

[Codfather]

Aye but brand new?
This is the issue with it being a company car - has to be unregistered with zero miles on the clock.
The owner:driver route is available but as I have very little NCD (haven't had a private car much at all) the insurance is extortionate.
If I could have something with delivery miles or a bit second hand then yes, the options are enormous.
New though.....
Even getting the Leon with the 2.0 requires 20%+ discount that's only available because it's the dregs of the current shape before the new one is released.

 

[JamesBryan]

Oh brand new! Didn't realise that.

Thought that was your budget based on a car allowance.

Yeah you're going to struggle then lol

Something with a 1600kg limit would do it but it's cutting it close probably on total train weight by the time you add extra wheels/tools to the total.

 

[botfch]

Probably better off buying something old for a couple of grand to use exclusively for towing.

 

[Codfather]

Sadly no.
Second hand as you say the market is wide open with Mercs BMs Audis et al with torquey 2.0 diesels that would more than do the job.
But even with no claims or convictions, my relatively short license period and low NCD, plus high annual miles means insurance is £2.5k plus for most.

I think 1600kg would be alright as long as I carry the bare minimum of spares/tools, but in an ideal world I'd like to push it up a bit.

Re: buying something second hand separately - this would be great if I could spare a couple of grand, plus another grand for insurance, on top of all o the funds needed for prepping/building the car. A the moment I think that's a no-go sadly. I've looked into the options and it seems the second hand options are not financially feasible.

 

[JamesBryan]

Do you have a weight limit for the track car?

Can easily get it down to less than 1000kg.

 

[Codfather]

970kg I believe (or 930 [30kg one side of a round number]), but any serious weight reduction is not that easy while keeping within the Production class limits - there's not that much you can actually do.
I don't know what difference replacing the glass with Lexan will make - need to find out if this is something I can feasibly do myself as well.
I would imagine the glass will make a fair difference, as will all the unnecessary electronics if I can get them out.

 

[JamesBryan]

970kg I believe (or 930 [30kg one side of a round number]), but any serious weight reduction is not that easy while keeping within the Production class limits - there's not that much you can actually do.
I don't know what difference replacing the glass with Lexan will make - need to find out if this is something I can feasibly do myself as well.
I would imagine the glass will make a fair difference, as will all the unnecessary electronics if I can get them out.

Probably looking at around a 20kg saving for the glass all round excluding the windscreen.

My road going 182 with bucket seats is 1030kg, so 970kg is easily done.

 

[sburrell93]

I think I know the answer already based on what's been said so far, but is the £18k the set in stone budget you're given to get a company car, or is that your figure based on a car allowance you get?

 

[Codfather]

Okay, sub 1T looks very doable then. The issue is that it's great giving these weight numbers as limits in the regulations, but most people realistically have no way of weighing a car on the fly during preparation.

£18k is indeed set in stone sadly. It's £2k more than others in my position have been given so I don't want to push my luck so £18,000.00 for a brand new car, economical, decent towing capacity and decent space. Seemingly not a small issue.

 

[JamesBryan]

You'll need to do a B+E trailer test too.

 

[TheEvilGiraffe]

.. and ask for a tow bar to be fitted

 

[Hyperhatch]

I’ll stand to be corrected but it’s what the Clios plated weight is that is the weight they go by. It can be 950kg but if the door plate says 1350kg then it’s regarded as 1350kg

 

[JamesBryan]

I’ll stand to be corrected but it’s what the Clios plated weight is that is the weight they go by. It can be 950kg but if the door plate says 1350kg then it’s regarded as 1350kg

They'd just take you to the nearest weigh bridge.

 

[Codfather]

You'll need to do a B+E trailer test too.

I already know how to break into a house. Oh you mean the towing test....
Is that not only if the gross weight+payload > 3500kg?

I’ll stand to be corrected but it’s what the Clios plated weight is that is the weight they go by. It can be 950kg but if the door plate says 1350kg then it’s regarded as 1350kg

I thought the plated weight only applies to the tow car? Surely the plated weight of the trailered car is irrelevant as it's dead weight and really not a car at that point - just a collection of bits that happened to be bolted together in a car shape?

 

[Codfather]

.. and ask for a tow bar to be fitted

This is also non-trivial as Seat charge £795 for the pre-reg fitment of a towbar! Apparently because it HAS to come with a spare wheel that isn't otherwise included and is the bulk of the £795.

Apparently it's fine to get it done aftermarket, post-reg as long as car + fitted towbar is <£18k.

Such a nightmare.

 

[JamesBryan]

I already know how to break into a house. Oh you mean the towing test....
Is that not only if the gross weight+payload > 3500kg?

It's 3500kg MAM (maximum authorised mass).

MAM is the limit on how much the vehicle can weigh when it’s loaded.

So it's similar to what @Hyperhatch said.

It's the heaviest the tow car can weigh plus the weight of what the trailer can hold (it's plated weight).

 

[Starlet_gt]

It's 3500kg MAM (maximum authorised mass).

MAM is the limit on how much the vehicle can weigh when it’s loaded.

So it's similar to what @Hyperhatch said.

It's the heaviest the tow car can weigh plus the weight of what the trailer can hold (it's plated weight).

Depends when he got his license? If its pre '97 then he'll be fine. I think its 97 anyway.

 

[JamesBryan]

Depends when he got his license? If its pre '97 then he'll be fine. I think its 97 anyway.

His profile suggests he's 25.

 

[Codfather]

His profile is correct. I've only had my license for 3 or so years so it might be best to do the B+E.
Legality of towing aside with X license at Y weight, the more imminent issue is selecting a car which will actually tow the required weight (as factory lead times are of the order of four months plus).
I'm happy doing an additional training/test day if that's what's required. But the big issue is whether or not I can get a car which will actually tow it.
I might re-look into a second hand Disco or similar less-breaky Japanese equiv.

 

[welshname]

Aye but brand new?
This is the issue with it being a company car - has to be unregistered with zero miles on the clock.
The owner:driver route is available but as I have very little NCD (haven't had a private car much at all) the insurance is extortionate.
If I could have something with delivery miles or a bit second hand then yes, the options are enormous.
New though.....
Even getting the Leon with the 2.0 requires 20%+ discount that's only available because it's the dregs of the current shape before the new one is released.

On the private car front for insurance, a lot of companies will honour your work one against your private one if you contact them directly. I know LV used to as that's how my dad did his.

 

[Mertin]

His profile is correct. I've only had my license for 3 or so years so it might be best to do the B+E.
Legality of towing aside with X license at Y weight, the more imminent issue is selecting a car which will actually tow the required weight (as factory lead times are of the order of four months plus).
I'm happy doing an additional training/test day if that's what's required. But the big issue is whether or not I can get a car which will actually tow it.
I might re-look into a second hand Disco or similar less-breaky Japanese equiv.

Older discovery like you say or a shogun sport, problem is finding a good looked after one that isnt going to cost you the earth on repairs. Audi / skoda estates also and avoid the 4x4 running costs. Depends how often the tow car would be used?

Is it completely out the question to drive to events? I dont as I already had a trailer and tow car at my disposal but plenty in the scottish sprints and hills do 200 mile + round trips for events

Be careful with lexan windows as that will stick you into the modified class and presume your aiming for the road going class?

 

[1985michael182]

This is a really hard subject to explain but I'll give it a go....

So with your tow vehicle I would be extremely surprised if a seat leon can tow 1600kg???? You defo need to double check that! Small modern hatchback are usually around 1000kg maximum tow weight some dont even do that!
But the guys are right it's the MAM maximum authorised mass that you NEED to get right.
A Leon's MAM will be around 1800/2000kg fully loaded. So 4 adults, full tank of fuel and a boot full of crap.

That mean you need the trailer and the object on the trailer to be below 1500kg or you will breach the 3500kg limit without a full B+E trailer licence which allows you to have a train weight upto 7500kg.

But.... that stamp on the tow vehicles vin plate and the stamp on the trailer must also not exceed 3500kg aswell.

So ideally your trailer needs to weigh 500kg or less, be able to carry 1000kg payload for a combined weight of 1500kg and be stamped up with a MAM of 1500kg which is your full payload and trailer weight combined.
Your tow vehicle needs to be able to tow 1500kg or more and have a MAM on the vin of a maximum of 2000kg.

The kerb weight of a Leon will be 1400/1500kg maybe which is a complete car with a full tank of fuel.
So legally you can add 500kg of weight into the vehicle like yourself, spare wheels, tools, extra fuel. But if you put any of that weight on to your trailer you would be over weight and illegally towing.

I hope that all made sense?
I only know this as i was in the same position as yourself and did alot of research. To make your life easier regarding your total train weight just do the trailer test and the you are good for 7.5tons.

Also once you have built your car and it's ready, take it to a weight bridge to be weighed, they will charge about £10 and they give you a certificate from their calibrated scales which I laminated so if I'm ever pulled over I can show them exactly how much is on the trailer regardless of what the vin plate says on the clio. Makes you look good aswell s
As you are organised.

 

[1985michael182]

This helps...

So your gross train weight needs to be 3500kg. Your gross vehicle weight needs to be 2000kg or less to make your tow weight 1500kg.

 

[Codfather]

Really grateful for all of the help given above.
I think as far as the legality of towing on my license goes I think I understand the implications of the respective numbers on the cars and trailer and in all likelihood, it looks like the complete ensemble would be above the 3500kg limit, so the B+E test is probably a must.

The question is a more academic one now regarding whether or not it will be physically possible (and safe) to tow the car and trailer with an assumed mass of ~1500kg with any car which is in budget.
Seat provide the following figures for the 1.6 and 2.0 diesel Leons;

Which implies that it would be possible. Just.

But as @1985michael182 says, the question is how far to actually believe these numbers in the real world.

So I'm therefore putting it out there; is anyone on the forum towing a Clio + trailer with something Golf shaped with a mid sized diesel engine?

@Mertin I've had another look again at Discos, Shoguns etc this morning and I'm reaching the same conclusion again that it isn't financially viable.
The insurance alone is ~£2k somehow, plus we run into the complex and not very interesting issue of the managed parking in the village thing where I now live. Me having a third car would then take the total in our four person shared house up to six now and seven in the near future. With the Clio garaged, two in the car ports and only three on street parking permits, it becomes very difficult.
I did put in my initial message about driving to the events, with a support car. The issue then, especially with rallycross, is what happens if the car gets binned and can't be driven?
Perhaps it might make sense to stick to driving to and from hillclimbs for the time being until a tow car can be sorted.

I'd love a disco or similar because my other time and money vacuum is mountain biking and having something big and hefty with 4WD that I could slowly mod (did someone say roof tent?) would be ideal. But the insurance is crippling and 30mpg unladen is hardly an attractive number when you start adding 1.5T of weight on the back.

@welshname maybe this is something to look into even if I don't fully understand the implications. But tbh I'm putting off contacting my insurers for as long as possible because when I tell them I've moved from Welwyn to Hatfield they're going to put the Clio insurance through the roof.

Realistically I think having a separate tow car is out and I need to either find a company car which will do the job, or stick with driving to races for the foreseeable future.
The curses of being young....

 

[Bluebeard]

Can you not get a van for a company Vehicle? Less company car Tax, bigger towing capacity, Your employer can claim all the VAT back too.

Something like a Citroen Dispatch, Transit Connect etc will tow a clio and a trailer and you van get them in a 5 seater variant. Bloody comfy and well specced too. You could even sell the idea to your company by having it signwritten.

Just a thought.

 

[Codfather]

Can you not get a van for a company Vehicle? Less company car Tax, bigger towing capacity, Your employer can claim all the VAT back too.

Something like a Citroen Dispatch, Transit Connect etc will tow a clio and a trailer and you van get them in a 5 seater variant. Bloody comfy and well specced too. You could even sell the idea to your company by having it signwritten.

Just a thought.

Sadly no.
This would be ideal for me as I can chuck bikes in it, set up a bed and tools etc.
But another stipulation is that it NEEDS to be 5dr for the odd occasion when more than one person from head office in Japan comes over for visits to customer sites.
A lot of these rules are very annoying and somewhat arbitrary, but trust me, there is no changing them

 

[Hollidog]

Who have you contacted about insurance? I'm with REIS and when I contacted them for a quote for a 335d touring they quoted me £850 on a car worth £8k, fwiw I'm 27 and haven't lived here long enough to get a decent NCD. That also included £1500 of cover for tools, safety equipment, etc. This was under their "support vehicle" policy

 

[1985michael182]

Looking at your figures that Seat have, you are well under the gross train weight.
1870 + 1500=3370kg
You just need to find a trailer that is stamped up with a 1000kg pay load and a gross weight of 1500kg and you are sorted.
The 1500kg on the cars tow weight at 12% is for novices. The 8% is for more experienced people. Aslong as you respect the rig and dont drive like an asshat you'll be fine.

 

[Soot1e]

Looking at your figures that Seat have, you are well under the gross train weight.
1870 + 1500=3370kg
You just need to find a trailer that is stamped up with a 1000kg pay load and a gross weight of 1500kg and you are sorted.
The 1500kg on the cars tow weight at 12% is for novices. The 8% is for more experienced people. Aslong as you respect the rig and dont drive like an asshat you'll be fine.

You can also re-plate the trailer weight lower than the manufactures recommendation. Just find out the racecar weight and allow for wheels and full Jerry cans that will be carried on the trailer. Buy a new chassis plate and have it engraved/stamped with the new max capacity, it’s completely legal to do that as I have downgraded my 4 wheel trailer to 1200kg.
Most of the trailer regs are for commercial drivers, you just have to adhere to the 3500kg moving mass as you are young driver.

 

[Subaru addict]

Thinking a bit outside the box Is a pick up an option? You could get a double cab so you have 5 seats. Also do dacia do anything with a 2L diesel in it? They are cheap new?

 

[Subaru addict]

Iv just solved all your problems... ssangyong Korando. Brand new 17 to 18k with a 3k discount. Autotrader... Blurb says...
This entry level Korando SE comes with a £2,000 discount! The best tow car on the road, It's not just us who think it. It's been awarded 'Tow Car of the year' 4 years in a row. , Our entry level SE features front and rear parking sensors, reversing camera, TOMTOM Sat- nav, Heated seats, Bluetooth, Cruise control and much more!, Finance? We've got it covered. Choose from deposit contributions, PCP options or take us up on a 7 year finance agreement to spread the costs a little bit better., Clarion Cars is a family run business which strive to deliver excellent customer service -

 

[Subaru addict]

2.2 diesel 295lbs/ft ridiculously cheap and 2 ton towing capacity. Gotta love autotrader!

 

[bob the builder]

we used to have a korando bloody fantastic 4x4 and was pretty good on fuel aswell. we got a top spec, 1 year old, still with 4 years warranty on for £16000 and as said 2 ton tow capacity.

 

[Cub.]

Dacia Duster. New, and in budget and number 6 on this list;

Top 10 best tow cars 2024 | Carbuyer

Choosing the best tow car can be tricky, so we’ve selected a range of our favourite cars with excellent towing credentials

www.carbuyer.co.uk

 

[P-Co]

I've had company cars for a long time but always kept a personal one too.

Be careful with towing with a company car because not all of their insurance policies will cover you to tow as in if you damage another vehicle with your trailer they will not pay out or may even void your warranty.

That's why I got the 4x4 it's an 04 Santa Fe 2L diesel turbo with a tow weight of 2ton and tows my horse and box every weekend with no issues.

Only repairs over the past year have been discs and pads as they were needed when I got it and a wishbone which again needed when I got it, pulls better than my yard managers old Disco 2 (I borrowed it one day [emoji16]).

 

[Kev@KAM]

I wouldnt want to tow with a 1.6 Diesel Seat!
Wait till you get to a hill and you will cry!
Also the wheelbase is short which means if theres an issue its not that stable.
Bigger is always better when towing. Sounds like Korean is the way forward