Uprated Inlet Manifold - Ideas/Thought/Gauging Interest

[Addymk2]

Sirs, Maams, Ladies and Gentleman.
I've started talks with quite a well known manufacturer (in the JDM scene anyway) of both inlet and exhaust manifolds in regards to an uprated inlet manifold for the 172/182.
The design will be of a similar vein to the RS2 manifold however, the price will be lower due to it being manufactured from aluminium.
There previous projects have included some very heavily boosted drag cars so there kit is more than happy with taking a beating.

Ideas spinning around so far; The manifold will be a one piece design, a welded affair with inbuilt velocity stacks to further increase flow.
An affordable price tag, bear in mind a full race spec inlet which they already manufacture for another engine is currently sitting at just under £700. That's with a lifetime warranty, inbuilt velocity stacks and the option to have additional vacuum points you may need if you decided to have a go with a turbo.

Is there anything you guys would like to see?

On a side note, who would be interested in one, if the price was right?

I've used there kit before, including a full ramhorn manifold which was custom made to my spec with great success.

I'll keep you guys in the loop with regards to the current discussion.

Thanks a lot, Craig.
(I WILL NOT BE THE DISTRIBUTOR FOR THE FINAL PRODUCT)

 

[Addymk2]

Craig,
Thank you are the additional pictures.
Just like you recommended, we shall work on the gasket ports in order to maximise flow on the intake manifold.
Is it possible to take some pictures (with a measuring instrument across to give me an idea of space) between the engine cylinder head and the front end, the length of the cylinder head across and how far to the battery. If there is anything close by which you think may hit the intake manifold, it would help considerably if you take pictures indicating the amount of space available.
We will consider all the help you are giving us when we get on with making an intake manifold for you.

Kind regards,
ZiscoPerformance



In the morning I'll be taking the required pics, unless anyone has the measurements to hand. The inlet will be flow tested etc. to ensure maximum performance.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

I'd like to see an option to have a long runner length, long enough that the bonnet catch needs to go (i.e long enough to suit the engine). A decent sized plenum and the trumpets flush with the back of the plenum (as to not choke the engine and provide better flow characteristics).

With it being a welded design I'm a bit sceptical of how good it will be and the price seems very high too considering its welded alloy.

Have you got a link to their website and examples of previous work with before/after dyno runs?

 

[Addymk2]

I'd like to see an option to have a long runner length, long enough that the bonnet catch needs to go (i.e long enough to suit the engine). A decent sized plenum and the trumpets flush with the back of the plenum (as to not choke the engine and provide better flow characteristics).

With it being a welded design I'm a bit sceptical of how good it will be and the price seems very high too considering its welded alloy.

Have you got a link to their website and examples of previous work with before/after dyno runs?

http://www.ziscoperformance.co.uk/
The quoted race manifold also includes a billet throttle body etc. which will be surplus on Clios inlet. This is still very much in the draft/design stages, bearing in mind that second hand RS2 manifolds are being punted for £1100. Myself and Zisco only started discussing this yesterday.

I'll pass on your ideas though, regarding losing the bonnet catch I'm assuming that pins would have to be used instead? With regards to that I'll recommend that it may be worth looking into 2 options, i.e fast road/race.

Cheers for the input mate!

 

[Cupman29]

After having looked into inlet manifold designs when making my own, now that's its made I can easily understand how it can cost £700.

The plenum design is as important as the size and the trumpets should be raised off the back plate and not flush. The air velocity is faster in this area and flows better. It also increases the runner length without making the manifold any longer. I opted to retain the standard bonnet catch so kept the runners short on mine.

 

[Addymk2]

After having looked into inlet manifold designs when making my own, now that's its made I can easily understand how it can cost £700.

The plenum design is as important as the size and the trumpets should be raised off the back plate and not flush. The air velocity is faster in this area and flows better. It also increases the runner length without making the manifold any longer. I opted to retain the standard bonnet catch so kept the runners short on mine.

I don't mean to be cheeky but I don't suppose you have any of your original measurements do you?

I won't be designing or building the inlet, but any extra input for the guys at Zisco would be a bonus. They're the chaps with the software and expertise to pull this off I'm just the middle man [emoji3]

Thanks a lot, Craig

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Not so, look at any oem and top end inlet and the runner radii are flush.

The option that needs bonnet catches would be my preference. It would be nice to see a manifold that would give close to ITB performance but without the need for an aftermarket ECU. Also with track use I didn't trust the standard bonnet catch anyway.

 

[Cupman29]

I have CAD drawings for all the parts used in making my manifold but as I intend on reproducing it once it has been fully tested I could give them out. I'll post a picture up which is on my build thread anyway.

 

[Addymk2]

I have CAD drawings for all the parts used in making my manifold but as I intend on reproducing it once it has been fully tested I could give them out. I'll post a picture up which is on my build thread anyway.

Cheers mate, every little counts!

 

[Cupman29]

Not so, look at any oem and top end inlet and the runner radii are flush.

The option that needs bonnet catches would be my preference. It would be nice to see a manifold that would give close to ITB performance but without the need for an aftermarket ECU. Also with track use I didn't trust the standard bonnet catch anyway.

All F1 inlets, BMW M engines and ones from cosworth, skunk, AMS, ect all have raised trumpets. OEM is purely for cost purposes, not for optimum performance. Why do all these companies and design have raised trumpets if it is detrimental to the flow?

 

[JD_RS172]

100% interested @Addymk2

 

[Cupman29]

Cheers mate, every little counts!

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Skunk inlet

Can't find a cutaway one of the Cosworth D power inlet.

Most F1 inlets I would expect to have trumpets becuase of the plenum design and pulse tuning runner length.

Only way to be sure is to do full flow analysis of both on the final design.

 

[Cupman29]

Skunk inlet

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=skunk inlet manifold&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=MPemVOHVE8qrU8uMgPAM&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=360&bih=592#facrc=_&imgrc=7VgDGwcWBt3uiM%3A;EVJouEJ1XY5nEM;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jhpusa.com%2Fstore%2Fpc%2Fcatalog%2Fskunk2%2Fsk2.ultra.k-manifold11_d.jpg;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jhpusa.com%2Fstore%2Fpc%2FviewPrd.asp%3Fidproduct%3D13272;648;488

Cosworth inlet example

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=skunk inlet manifold&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=MPemVOHVE8qrU8uMgPAM&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=360&bih=592#tbm=isch&q=cosworth inlet manifold&facrc=_&imgrc=qe3wXtx0xF5AmM%3A;zbfFuMOh1BwesM;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tdi-plc.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2Fcosworth_vq35_intake_manifold.jpg;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tdi-plc.com%2Fcosworth-vq35-intake-manifold%2F;500;332

AMS inlet

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=skunk inlet manifold&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=MPemVOHVE8qrU8uMgPAM&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=360&bih=592#tbm=isch&q=ams inlet manifold&facrc=_&imgrc=qIh995DOCKhMGM%3A;xaVKIJKERfFZ8M;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amsperformance.com%2Fcart%2Fimages%2FD%2FAMS_Performance_F1-I_Intake_Manifold_CAD_Cutout_1200x800.jpg;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amsperformance.com%2Fcart%2FAMS-Mitsubishi-Lancer-Evolution-VIII-IX-8-9-F1-I-Intake-Manifold.html;1200;800


Most cast inlets will be flat to the backplate due to the casting process but if it's a fabricated manifold then they nearly all have raised trumpets. Look at ferraris, m cars etc and they all have raised trumpets.

 

[NorthloopCup]

A performance boosted inlet and a performance n/a inlet are 2 completely different animals, so in turn the design will be different. It's worth keeping that in mind guys. Also, plenum volume I'd argue is just as important in the design

 

[Cupman29]

Inlet characteristics get very similar on a high boost engine as they would be with an NA setup. I spoke to Scoff about this when designing my inlet and he basically said if you produce an inlet that is good for NA then it will work well for boost as long as it can cope with the pressure.

Long runners give more torque in both turbo and NA application but you get away with it more on a boosted engine.

 

[NorthloopCup]

A yb cosworth inlet manifold and pulsar gtir inlet manifold are worth looking at as well as the ones you've listed above @Cupman29 and @Ph1 Tom . One has the trumpets inside (yb) and one has radiused inlets that are biased towards the air flow (pulsar). Both are used in boosted form, but work equally as well as each other in terms of performance.

 

[Cupman29]

Another point that I had a lot of head scratching was the location of the injectors. I read up on loads of conflicting stuff but ultimately the F1 guys know what they are doing. They have the injectors spraying directly into the trumpet parallel to the airflow. I tried to work out a way to do this but on the design I had gone for it would not have been easy or even possible.

If I was to look at redesigning it, I would go for this method but it would involve a far more complex design.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Inlet characteristics get very similar on a high boost engine as they would be with an NA setup. I spoke to Scoff about this when designing my inlet and he basically said if you produce an inlet that is good for NA then it will work well for boost as long as it can cope with the pressure.

Long runners give more torque in both turbo and NA application but you get away with it more on a boosted engine.

Yes totally agree with this wholeheartedly. The biggest question is, what is the end goal? What are you looking to achieve? The reality of it is none of us are building engines that are f1 spec. I've certainly not got the resources of cash flow to fund it! Lol!

I'm not being a dick about it, just trying to say it's easy to obsess about something like inlet manifold design than in n/a form will potentially never make 250hp.
OP - I'm not saying the company your in talks with isn't capable, I'm saying the inlet is the least of the engines worries in n/a trim for finding hp.

 

[Cupman29]

A yb cosworth inlet manifold and pulsar gtir inlet manifold are worth looking at as well as the ones you've listed above @Cupman29 and @Ph1 Tom . One has the trumpets inside (yb) and one has radiused inlets that are biased towards the air flow (pulsar). Both are used in boosted form, but work equally as well as each other in terms of performance.

Good point Mark, the performance on different engines may be negligible.

Another well known brand for boosted applications are Magnus. They have also opted for using raised trumpets for high powered evo engines.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...ishi-eclipse-2g-dsm-9599-p-45533.html;500;375

 

[Cupman29]

Yes totally agree with this wholeheartedly. The biggest question is, what is the end goal? What are you looking to achieve? The reality of it is none of us are building engines that are f1 spec. I've certainly not got the resources of cash flow to fund it! Lol!

I'm not being a dick about it, just trying to say it's easy to obsess about something like inlet manifold design than in n/a form will potentially never make 250hp.
OP - I'm not saying the company your in talks with isn't capable, I'm saying the inlet is the least of the engines worries in n/a trim for finding hp.

Also agree on this. With mine, as I was getting the parts made relatively cheaply as i did all the CAD work and design and had an excellent welder in @focrs, the design I went for was the best (bar the space constraints) that I could have. I certainly don't have an f1 budget either. Lol

 

[JD_RS172]

I think it's more the boosted guys looking for the better inlets. That's why I'm looking!

 

[Cupman29]

I think it's more the boosted guys looking for the better inlets. That's why I'm looking!

For most boosted cars, the standard manifold would be fine and is proven to over 300hp. If you are wanting big power then a custom inlet is advisable.

I would say a good NA manifold is what the majority will want.

There re loads to choose from for Hondas but none for clios since the rs2 was discontinued.

 

[JD_RS172]

For most boosted cars, the standard manifold would be fine and is proven to over 300hp. If you are wanting big power then a custom inlet is advisable.

I would say a good NA manifold is what the majority will want.

There re loads to choose from for Hondas but none for clios since the rs2 was discontinued.

Yeah that's a fairly good point!

I read that you can still get the RS2 but a few need to be ordered and they're ridiculously expensive.

There does need to be something else on the market. Like you say there's so much variety for the ricers.

 

[Addymk2]

For most boosted cars, the standard manifold would be fine and is proven to over 300hp. If you are wanting big power then a custom inlet is advisable.

I would say a good NA manifold is what the majority will want.

There re loads to choose from for Hondas but none for clios since the rs2 was discontinued.

This is what I was aiming for with my initial inquiries tbh, although as Zisco do with the starlets, I can't see why they won't have more than one design/pricing strategy depending on how well they sell/demand.

 

[Cupman29]

This is what I was aiming for with my initial inquiries tbh, although as Zisco do with the starlets, I can't see why they won't have more than one design/pricing strategy depending on how well they sell/demand.

Just had a look a their website and they seem to have a pretty good site and products. Have they flow tested their inlet manifolds designs that they currently make and could they test any other design. Is it only starlets they make for currently or do they do any NA stuff?

 

[Addymk2]

Just had a look a their website and they seem to have a pretty good site and products. Have they flow tested their inlet manifolds designs that they currently make and could they test any other design. Is it only starlets they make for currently or do they do any NA stuff?

They do flow test, atm there standard products revolve around Starlets, however they have made numerous other custom setups, hence the interest in having a go at products for the Clio and as there's a presumed demand, keeping the product line going as appose to a simple one off design.

Any input going into this thread is being fired over to the guys at Zisco so they can get it on the drawing board. ATM they're trawling ebay for a standard inlet manifold and then going from there.

 

[Addymk2]

Bare in mind, this is the demo car. And it's a 1.5.

 

[JD_RS172]

Jesus

 

[Cupman29]

Bare in mind, this is the demo car. And it's a 1.5.

Where was that, looks overseas? Not in the uk I guess as a 9.5 second car would be pretty famous.

 

[Addymk2]

Malta, thats where they're based but supply to the UK. Genuinely top notch service, I just thought that this may outline that it's not some rookie in a shed! Haha

 

[tom172cup]

Where was that, looks overseas? Not in the uk I guess as a 9.5 second car would be pretty famous.

Iirc that's a 1.3 and we are in the 8s over here now

 

[tom172cup]

This is going on mine under 400 notes with a 72mm body

 

[Addymk2]

Iirc that's a 1.3 and we are in the 8s over here now

You're right about it being a 1.3. It's a 4EFTE not a 5EFTE. My bad!

However, that is the fastest 4EFTE Starlet in the world.

 

[Cupman29]

Iirc that's a 1.3 and we are in the 8s over here now

Very true but a 9.5sec car would still be known.

Malta, thats where they're based but supply to the UK. Genuinely top notch service, I just thought that this may outline that it's not some rookie in a shed! Haha

Weather looked far too good to be over here. It certainly shifts anyway and for a 1.3! What power is it making?

 

[Cupman29]

View attachment 119673

This is going on mine under 400 notes with a 72mm body

Is that for a F4R head? Looks a good piece of kit but the injector cut outs on the flange won't meet up with the head. Out of curiousity, does this have flush or raised trumpets?

 

[Robmarriott]

Looks like a Honda inlet to me

 

[tom172cup]

Is that for a F4R head? Looks a good piece of kit but the injector cut outs on the flange won't meet up with the head. Out of curiousity, does this have flush or raised trumpets?

It's a Honda one I've bought a f4r flange and going to chop and weld it on. Injector bosses welded into the runners or just use the other 4 that are underneath. It's got flushed trumpets

 

[marinemackay2003]

I'm in the process of building one of these, well similar in concept

 

[NorthloopCup]

I'm in the process of building one of these, well similar in concept

Where did you get the base manifold from out of interest?