200bhp in a 172?

[Snake182]

Turbo is undoubtedly the way to go for a significant amount more power, but it then tempts you into getting carried away and before you know it you are 10K in!

Made me lol, I have a mate like this, vtec mini conversion, supercharged 1380 mini, always spending ££££

 

[renty]

Yeh thats my plan (going off topic a little here) just purchased mine cheaply but its a tidy car with sh ill put a pic of it on here then the haters will arrive lol as I tow it on a frame behind my tractor so I can drive it home when im working away

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeh thats my plan (going off topic a little here) just purchased mine cheaply but its a tidy car with sh ill put a pic of it on here then the haters will arrive lol as I tow it on a frame behind my tractor so I can drive it home when im working away

I assume you are aware that towing on an A-frame (unless done under very specific circumstances) is a pretty dubious thing legally?

 

[renty]

I assume you are aware that towing on an A-frame (unless done under very specific circumstances) is a pretty dubious thing legally?

Im covered on my insurance and have my hgv license so dont panic

 

[renty]

Made me lol, I have a mate like this, vtec mini conversion, supercharged 1380 mini, always spending ££££

How about a 12v turbo u see on ebay lol cant believe how many they sell

 

[Chip-mk1]

Im covered on my insurance and have my hgv license so dont panic

Its not about insurance or license, its about the laws regarding what constitutes a legal trailer in the UK.

Ie it has to be braked if its over 750 kg.

It is possible to convert a car to comply in theory, but its not trivial.

 

[renty]

The dolly is braked but I can tow 3 tonne unbraked behind a tractor legally

 

[Chip-mk1]

The dolly is braked but I can tow 3 tonne unbraked behind a tractor legally

Dolly is different to A-frame and the laws are even more complicated on legality, its no good the dolly being braked as the law states that ALL wheels on the ground on a trailer over 750kg must be braked.

They are only legal for recovery of a broken down vehicle sadly, not for vehicle transportation.

Maybe there is some exception for a tractor though, that isnt something I have looked into

 

[Grandpa Joe]

It's an easy enough target I think
I was just wondering if anyone knew of what else I could do to get an extra 4-6bhp out of the engine to bring her up to the 200+ mark without spending mega bucks.

Currently mapped and RR'd to 196bhp with the following mods
K-Tec induction kit and cone filter.
Matched inlet manifold.
Stealth cat back system.
piper cam 270 kit.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers

I have the same mods along with a ported and polished head and a 182 manifold. I made 184bhp on Dyno Dynamics rollers at RS Tuning where Paul mapped it.

To break 200bhp (I hope anyway!) I'll be fitting ITBs

 

[Knuckles]

The 182's are just as hard to get over 200bhp even thought they should have a higher initial output than the 172's (supposedly). I had my 182 RR'd at 172bhp/153fltbs so no wonder...its hard enough to get them above the 182 they should have lmao.

Because they're the same car

 

[underdog]

i read an article on passionford by motorsport developments on dyno manipulation and after that i find it hard to beleive any bhp figures from rolling roads now. its so easy to fake a few extra bhps by moving the temp sensor to a hotter part of the engine. im not saying they have done that to yours cos i dont know.

but do you know your bhp figure before correction??

 

[Chip-mk1]

i read an article on passionford by motorsport developments on dyno manipulation and after that i find it hard to beleive any bhp figures from rolling roads now. its so easy to fake a few extra bhps by moving the temp sensor to a hotter part of the engine. im not saying they have done that to yours cos i dont know.

but do you know your bhp figure before correction??

There are SO many ways of making a dyno misread its untrue.

I was mapping a 1.6 fiesta on bodies and some mega wild MWM cams a couple of years ago and the owner was saying it should be able to make more power as his friend's one had, I said to him about dyno figures being not very trustworthy, then just to show him what I mean I moved the temp probe and his car jumped 10bhp, he was over the moon till I explained it wasnt really any more power now than before, it was just I was now misusing the dyno, he went away with a figure a couple of bhp lower than he expected, but his car was actually faster in the real world than the one with the "higher" figure.

Its no good trusting the figures from them, they vary anyway just because they arent identical but throw in a bit of creative use from the operator and they can do so even more.


I'd wager that the two cars mentioned in this thread of similar spec that made 184@Rstuning and 196@519 actually have almost identical power outputs if you put them both onto the same rollers.

So where do you want 200bhp? Cause I bet you are 10-15bhp from it not 4bhp if you used the rollers I do or the ones at RS Tuning etc.

 

[underdog]

There are SO many ways of making a dyno misread its untrue.

I was mapping a 1.6 fiesta on bodies and some mega wild MWM cams a couple of years ago and the owner was saying it should be able to make more power as his friend's one had, I said to him about dyno figures being not very trustworthy, then just to show him what I mean I moved the temp probe and his car jumped 10bhp, he was over the moon till I explained it wasnt really any more power now than before, it was just I was now misusing the dyno, he went away with a figure a couple of bhp lower than he expected, but his car was actually faster in the real world than the one with the "higher" figure.

Its no good trusting the figures from them, they vary anyway just because they arent identical but throw in a bit of creative use from the operator and they can do so even more.


I'd wager that the two cars mentioned in this thread of similar spec that made 184@Rstuning and 196@519 actually have almost identical power outputs if you put them both onto the same rollers.

So where do you want 200bhp? Cause I bet you are 10-15bhp from it not 4bhp if you used the rollers I do or the ones at RS Tuning etc.

until i read that article i was unaware it was possible to do that so its opened my eyes. before i would have just believed whatever they say and took it as truth. id rather have the figure before correction now as on the day thats what it truly made regardless of air temp correction

 

[Chip-mk1]

until i read that article i was unaware it was possible to do that so its opened my eyes. before i would have just believed whatever they say and took it as truth. id rather have the figure before correction now as on the day thats what it truly made regardless of air temp correction

Air temp is only one factor, you can fudge the figures in lots of other ways too.

Personally I would sooner have the corrected figure as it IS more meaningful really, but done by a competent operator who is being honest.

 

[Adamm.]

Turbo is gay on a clio, get some jenveys on there, winner winner.

 

[underdog]

Air temp is only one factor, you can fudge the figures in lots of other ways too.

Personally I would sooner have the corrected figure as it IS more meaningful really, but done by a competent operator who is being honest.

im clueless to how rolling roads work so they could fudge me all day long. am i correct in assuming though a non corrected figure is the genuine bhp the car makes on that day?
i know they correct to set air temp but if im on track on a cold day then my car is making roughly the same bhp it made on a cold rolling road day and same with a warm day.
for me im correction just confuses things.

 

[Myfanwyi]

i read an article on passionford by motorsport developments on dyno manipulation and after that i find it hard to beleive any bhp figures from rolling roads now. its so easy to fake a few extra bhps by moving the temp sensor to a hotter part of the engine. im not saying they have done that to yours cos i dont know.

but do you know your bhp figure before correction??

It was 181bhp before cam fitment and remap and have two other RR print outs that are only -2bhp from 181bhp and ones 0.4 above 181bhp from two different sets of RR's

To everyone else saying how much RR's can differ, yes i am aware of that. This isn't my first rodeo and as an ex head mechanic for johnsey racing (team now split) spending 6 years tuning two stroke and four stroke race engines for quads/mxbikes in the british acu championship along with grasstrack racing mini's including hayabusa and zx14r turbo lumps I am more than aware of how to get power out of an engine and how some tuners can and do manipulate figures. I know most of the tricks from tyre pressures to jack loads.

As dan at 519 is pretty highly recommended, I've no real reason to disbelieve the figures provided by 519 and judging on how the car has fared against other clio 172s and 182s, I've certainly not got any reasons to disbelieve them there.

All I really wanted to know was what was needed, how others had achieved it and how much I'd realistically be looking to spend for now to get those figures. Not looking for people to say it can't be done as we all know it can.

 

[Adamm.]

RR, will you ever get the same reading between 2 different rollers? You could probably go on everyone in the country and get a different reading every time. I'm sure some companies just under read just so they can say all the others are fobbing them off lol..

 

[George182]

Like I said on the first page, to get 200bhp NA you need to add throttle bodies or an Rs2 manifold to your current set up.

I don't think anyone has said it can't be done have they?

 

[Myfanwyi]

RR, will you ever get the same reading between 2 different rollers? You could probably go on everyone in the country and get a different reading every time. I'm sure some companies just under read just so they can say all the others are fobbing them off lol..

Nope........Which is exactly why she's been on two separate sets of rollers along with tried and tested against other cars.

My gsxr has been on a few different sets of rollers in it's time and none have been to far apart at all. Biggest gap was 3bhp but that was down to one being done in winter and one being done in summer on the same RR.

Some people seem to have forgotten that ambient temperature can help manipulate readings as well.

 

[Myfanwyi]

Like I said on the first page, to get 200bhp NA you need to add throttle bodies or an Rs2 manifold to your current set up.

I don't think anyone has said it can't be done have they?

Nope and i haven't said anyone has said that, merely stated that in regards to the doubters/so sayers.

 

[George182]

Nope and i haven't said anyone has said that, merely stated that in regards to the doubters/so sayers.

Fair enough.

I wish you all the best in your quest for 200!

 

[Coops Mk1]

rofl, my cars pulled anywhere from 253 to 285 on various RR's over the years and its not changed spec at all in that time. and still ran consistent mid to low 12 second 1/4 miles over the same period too.

so someone was fudging something

 

[Munson]

Chasing numbers in a road car is a slippery slope to ruining both the car and your bank balance.

 

[Myfanwyi]

Fair enough.

I wish you all the best in your quest for 200!

Cheers George.

rofl, my cars pulled anywhere from 253 to 285 on various RR's over the years and its not changed spec at all in that time. and still ran consistent mid to low 12 second 1/4 miles over the same period too.

so someone was fudging something

That's not so uncommon with turbo lumps to be fair Coops.
The boosted ZX14R mini we used to run would light up the wheels so we never got a true reading with that car, didn't help being chain driven either.

 

[Coops Mk1]

and tbh, mines not exactly smooth delivery shall we say.............crap map on it, lol!

 

[Myfanwyi]

Chasing numbers in a road car is a slippery slope to ruining both the car and your bank balance.

It's not exactly a daily driver Munson. Have use of the wifes car for running around in and the bike for sunny days. For me it's more of an ongoing project/weekend weapon.

and tbh, mines not exactly smooth delivery shall we say.............crap map on it, lol!

Then that'll be where your problem lays Coops. Get it sorted!
Got a thread for your car old boy? Wouldn't mind having a look.

 

[MicKPM]

Like I said on the first page, to get 200bhp NA you need to add throttle bodies or an Rs2 manifold to your current set up.

I don't think anyone has said it can't be done have they?

I think with some serious fettling of the internals of the upper inlet plenum you could see the standard inlet flow a damn sight better but that is some work just to open it up, work the ports and then stich it back up again. I'm sure Mark said he'd flowed one recently and saw good results on the flow bench from this.

 

[Coops Mk1]

Then that'll be where your problem lays Coops. Get it sorted!
Got a thread for your car old boy? Wouldn't mind having a look.

theres a sort of catchup one here, but may not be exactly what your looking for chap, its an older F7P powered Mk1 vehicle

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?658549-M11-GTT&highlight=m11

pikie fastchips off the shelf chip on a set of pistons with a disco spud to get it shifting, not exactly perfect but does a good job of surprising most

 

[Myfanwyi]

I think with some serious fettling of the internals of the upper inlet plenum you could see the standard inlet flow a damn sight better but that is some work just to open it up, work the ports and then stich it back up again. I'm sure Mark said he'd flowed one recently and saw good results on the flow bench from this.

I've toyed with the idea in my head of seeing whether a set of GSXR throttle bodies would fit and make much difference. Have a spare set laying around that got taken off the bike with just 6000 miles on it so might have a bodge in future but I'm not sure if the injectors would match as it's the 600 throttle bodies not 1000's or whether plenum work would be needed as well to get the air/fuel ratio flow correct.

 

[Snake182]

Because they're the same car

lmao I can believe it, I think they all have the same power from factory, its all a lie lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

I've toyed with the idea in my head of seeing whether a set of GSXR throttle bodies would fit and make much difference. Have a spare set laying around that got taken off the bike with just 6000 miles on it so might have a bodge in future but I'm not sure if the injectors would match as it's the 600 throttle bodies not 1000's or whether plenum work would be needed as well to get the air/fuel ratio flow correct.

Plenum work?
what management are you planning on using and why would you have a plenum on those bodies?

given how cheap they are, sell yours and buy 1000cc bodies if you do it

 

[Myfanwyi]

theres a sort of catchup one here, but may not be exactly what your looking for chap, its an older F7P powered Mk1 vehicle

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?658549-M11-GTT&highlight=m11

pikie fastchips off the shelf chip on a set of pistons with a disco spud to get it shifting, not exactly perfect but does a good job of surprising most

Fair play that's smart as f*ck boyo.

 

[Myfanwyi]

Plenum work?
what management are you planning on using and why would you have a plenum on those bodies?

given how cheap they are, sell yours and buy 1000cc bodies if you do it

I haven't looked in to management systems yet Chip, it's just an idea for now.

Though I'm sure if i were to use the 600 ones it would need PW to balance the air pressure inside of the throttle bodies, can't just bolt them on can i. Would either have to adapt them to the clios chambers or make a set of my own. Either way would be a lot of work.

Hense it just being an idea for now old boy.

 

[Chip-mk1]

to balance the pressure of the throttle bodies, cant just bolt them on can i. Would either have to adapt them to the clios chambers or make a set of my own.

Just use tps as main load not Manifold pressure.

 

[Myfanwyi]

Just use tps as main load not Manifold pressure.

Could do but would still be more work than that Chip, they're not fly by wire so would be a case of changing a lot more than i "dreamed" of.

Having just read through an old post on here http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?501739-Throttle-bodies-Cheap-alternative
It wouldn't be worth the hassle.

 

[SharkyUK]

I'm not worried sharky old boy, just a glutten for power.
The previous owner spent some ££££££ on the whole car in general going through the service history and receipts so I haven't had to spend much myself yet at all.

Hey, less of the 'old'... actually, you're not far wrong.

I think there may have been one or two builds where folks have used bike throttle bodies, but I believe the setup and subsequent maintenance is sometimes more trouble than it's worth. I'm no expert whatsoever and this is simply based on what I've read in the past. Obviously there have been some replies from experienced and technical-minded folks in this thread but, if I was in a similar position, I'd be keeping an eye out for an RS2 coming up for sale. Get it fitted, remapped and then see where it's at. Possibly. Maybe.

 

[Myfanwyi]

Hey, less of the 'old'... actually, you're not far wrong.

I think there may have been one or two builds where folks have used bike throttle bodies, but I believe the setup and subsequent maintenance is sometimes more trouble than it's worth. I'm no expert whatsoever and this is simply based on what I've read in the past. Obviously there have been some replies from experienced and technical-minded folks in this thread but, if I was in a similar position, I'd be keeping an eye out for an RS2 coming up for sale. Get it fitted, remapped and then see where it's at. Possibly. Maybe.

Hmmm I may well travel down the rs2 inlet route then.
The bike bodies seemed like a good idea at the time, I stumbled across a thread early where someone had used gsxr1000 tb's, saw how much work had to go in to it and realized it was a lot more work than I had anticipated.

Darklite mentioned in a pm that you had TB's on your trophy, bet that's a frisky little fooker!

Cheers to everyone who's given constructive input by the way..much appreciated.

 

[aucky]

How much road and track use does it see, respecitively?

 

[SharkyUK]

Hmmm I may well travel down the rs2 inlet route then.
The bike bodies seemed like a good idea at the time, I stumbled across a thread early where someone had used gsxr1000 tb's, saw how much work had to go in to it and realized it was a lot more work than I had anticipated.

If you go the RS2 route, and decide it isn't for you, you will easily sell the RS2 on and make most of your money back, too. They are rare and much sought after items.

Darklite mentioned in a pm that you had TB's on your trophy, bet that's a frisky little fooker!

It was, then it wasn't... no end of problems with one thing and another mate. However, it's spent the last year at BTM Performance and I get it back in a couple of weeks time or so - complete with new ITB setup, forged internals, Schrick cams and a few other goodies. I can't wait. It should drive well.