BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Got to fabricate the front struts to relocate the top mounts further back, cut out old seat rails and weld in new, Cut out top of exhaust tunnel and weld in new with gear linkage repositioned, weld up quite a few holes in the front bulkhead and a little bit of welding on the pedal box

Dan519 · Oct 31, 2012

Nothing I can't do there if you can't get it done closer to home

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Thanks for that Dan I will keep it in mind

I'm trying to get someone to do it at my house as the shell even now its bare is going to be a pain to drag around!

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Just wanting to order my oil fittings for the oil cooler, the outlets on my cooler are JIC -10. I was just going to buy the -10 but then have read getting the correct bore size is important for oil pressure so was just wanting to check -10 on the oil cooler pipes is okay? If I need to go up or down that is okay but just don't want to buy the pipes and fittings and then need to change the whole lot lol

Tony Hunter · Oct 31, 2012

BIGASH said:
(apart from the brake fluid that just dripped in my eye )

Has it stopped you blinking.?

Cup_Phil · Oct 31, 2012

I did ask the guy who did my cage but he said Leeds is further than he really likes to go on a mobile callout but he'd think about it - not heard anything back but i'll nudge him next time we speak mate

frenchthing · Oct 31, 2012

Are you allowed to relocate your top mounts?? I thought that was a no-no in some race catagories??

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

frenchthing said:
Are you allowed to relocate your top mounts?? I thought that was a no-no in some race catagories??

Yeah I was surprised at that one too, even series which are much more liberal with allowing loads of other modifications (time attack etc) insist on standard suspension locations, and even in things like touring cars where you can move mounts there are finite distances they can be moved etc.

I would definately get an email fired off to the organisers of the series, not just rely on interpreting the rules BEFORE cutting the strut tops out.

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Tony Hunter said:
Has it stopped you blinking.?

luckily not yet

Cup_Phil said:
I did ask the guy who did my cage but he said Leeds is further than he really likes to go on a mobile callout but he'd think about it - not heard anything back but i'll nudge him next time we speak mate

No worries mate but thank you for asking

Let me know if he changes his mind, would like to use someone that is recommended rather than a random chap and it seems like good welders are hard to come by round here

frenchthing said:
Are you allowed to relocate your top mounts?? I thought that was a no-no in some race catagories??

I *think* we are Stu, Our series is pretty much in line with Blue book and I haven't read anything there which says I can't

Chip-mk1 said:
Yeah I was surprised at that one too, even series which are much more liberal with allowing loads of other modifications (time attack etc) insist on standard suspension locations, and even in things like touring cars where you can move mounts there are finite distances they can be moved etc.

I would definately get an email fired off to the organisers of the series, not just rely on interpreting the rules BEFORE cutting the strut tops out.

It certainly doesn't say it in the series reg's but yeah I will drop them a line

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

Ive been reading through some of the MSA regs that your series I believe is meant to comply with as well, and they have quite strong roles about what happens to the inner wings rewards of the axle and that sort of thing, I would be amazed if the strut top relocation you are planning didnt fall foul of that.

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Any chance you can send me the link please Chip as I couldn't find anything?

Thanks

I don't mind if I can't do it as had a chat with someone yesterday and have worked out another way to get a good gain but it still wouldn't be perfect

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

This is oine of the docs I found and is a similar series that has the MSA stuff detailed in it:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...gYGwAg&usg=AFQjCNGSdoaBc0lCeO0hn9qVhbx8YJasog

BBM me what you are planning now then, or is it similar to we were discussing at the weekend anyway?

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Thanks for that Chip

Yeah they are the series reg's for that series and as you say the mod's i'm planning aren't allowed in that series but the Tintop's reg's are considerably less detailed. However as you say I will ask them for confirmation

Will do

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

BIGASH said:
Thanks for that Chip Yeah they are the series reg's for that series and as you say the mod's i'm planning aren't allowed in that series but the Tintop's reg's are considerably less detailed. However as you say I will ask them for confirmation

Will do

I cant find it now, but I am sure that when I was looking at tintops a few years ago there was a line somewhere about "must also conform to MSA technical regulations" or similar.

But because it was intended as a "stick a cage in your daily and race it" series they didnt ever bother going into intimate detail as far as im aware.

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Oh yeah we do have to stick to MSA tech reg's but that is just the contents of the bluebook and then any supplementary series reg's

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

Ironically you might be ok then, as the bluebook doesnt go down to that level of detail either, as its series specific what mods you can and cant do to suspension mounts.

So your entry level tintop series might actually accidently allow you to push the car changes far further than other "higher" series do, lol

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Yeah it's a good point I had best check other series as it's a bit silly if I just build the car for one series lol!

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

BIGASH said:
Yeah it's a good point I had best check other series as it's a bit silly if I just build the car for one series lol!

Yeah, In britcar for example you can spaceframe for the production cup, but it then moves you up a class IIRC, so you might find that just cause you move that, you then get classed as non original chassis and effectively classed as a spaceframe. Ie you would end up in production 2 not production 3 (as although you are sub 2.0 litres you are over 130 DIN at the wheels), and you would get annihilated there I suspect, lol

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

I don't even attempt to understand the Britcar classes lol, it's all weight, engine size and power so haven't even tried to work it out!

frenchthing · Oct 31, 2012

Mike might know (he races the blue 106 in your series)..

Im sure he had to keep the turret tops the same but could use custom top mounts to get the most out of what the shell would allow..

Theres been a few people enquire about the custom topmount+turret top i make until they read the rules then realise they cant do it..

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

I will drop Mike a message to double check then thanks

I guess his could be for the CNC races he does aswell as the tin tops

Yes I have seen a picture of his, unfortunlty the clio turret is a dome shape so can't use a flat plate type adjustable mount. My plan was either to elongate the dome to make a sliding system or install a flat plate and then fit these

I remember Cup Phil sending me a link to pictures of your top mounts and the fab work you did on them was awesome

frenchthing · Oct 31, 2012

Yeah clio turrets are shite to work with/modify... The only real way is how kenny has done it and cut the whole friggen lot out and start again...

Tony Hunter · Oct 31, 2012

James, where are these from please.

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

Tony, given that you are no doubt going to want the slider always to the max, you might be better off with ones like I have on my nova:

Although I chopped the edge of them down so I could move them ever further back, lol

Tony Hunter · Oct 31, 2012

Ok then, where did you get those from.?

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

http://www.compbrake.com/suspension-accessories/top-mounts.html

Tony Hunter · Oct 31, 2012

Still think I like the ones James is showing, at least there is an option to adjust if needed, or file out more if needed.

I always hear about BMW top mounts for this on Clio's ? dont't know where that comes from though. Unless it's the AST BMW top mounts that you have to use.?

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

I think because of the rubbish domed underside, you will struggle to get much thats a direct fit, its probably going to involve some messing about whatever you do if you want a decent amount of caster.

Tony Hunter · Oct 31, 2012

Oh yeah I'm aware of that. I know some welding has to be done, I've seen it done on another clio.

mark123 · Oct 31, 2012

Tin tops regs are deliberately vague I think, just original silouette, engine, gearbox and induction type.

Although blue book does say things like "just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can".

I'm pretty sure the Track Day Trophy wouldn't allow it. I remember when I was thinking of entering that I felt I even needed to query if ASTs were allowed as the spring position is moved.

Tony Hunter · Oct 31, 2012

Same as I read somewhere, that you cannot mount the cage to the suspension pick up points, but a lot of people have done it.

Jonny1*2 · Oct 31, 2012

surely that's the issue with any regs are they are open to interpretation. I would assume if they are classed as beyond the regs you can revert back?

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

frenchthing said:
Yeah clio turrets are s**te to work with/modify... The only real way is how kenny has done it and cut the whole friggen lot out and start again...

Yes exactly and then to get a top mounts with a decent PCD in you have to start chopping even more stuff out

Kenny has done the right thing but I don't want to chop out the bulkhead/scuttle panel

Tony Hunter said:
James, where are these from please.

Those were from a company that seem to have now gone gone bust and the closest I can find are http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAMBER-PL...589&pid=100015&prg=1006&rk=1&sd=181006349108&

Tony Hunter said:
I always hear about BMW top mounts for this on Clio's ? dont't know where that comes from though. Unless it's the AST BMW top mounts that you have to use.?

Yes the BMW E30/E36 top mounts are a good system to use if modding the top of the turret to a flat plate. Ideally the AST one's are the easiest to fit but offer limited adjustability. The clio 197/200 adjustable top mounts from AST would also work but again limited adjustment and expensive at around £360

These are for a BMW and are nice and cheap, My only concern is the quality of the spherical bearing and how easy it is to get replacements
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E36-P...arts_SM&fits=Car+Make:BMW&hash=item1c29d787eb

Chip-mk1 · Oct 31, 2012

Jonny1*2 said:
surely that's the issue with any regs are they are open to interpretation. I would assume if they are classed as beyond the regs you can revert back?

If you have chopped you strut off and welded it on further back, its going to be a BIG ballache putting it back again.

Hence I would want it in writing (email is ok) that it was allowed BEFORE I did the work.

MG cup · Oct 31, 2012

If its just caster your wanting, plasma cut out a oblong piece from the strut top, spin it 180 and re-weld it, then you can still use PM top mounts and strut brace. You would have to be told it was done to notice it. Not suggesting you cheat or anything if regs don't allow, just bend them a little. Picturing the strut tops , you would get 20-30mm.

BIGASH · Oct 31, 2012

Yes Morgan I think that is what I was thinking if I retained the PMS stuff but I was just going to insert a straight part to make it adjustable and it could keep the strut brace too. 35mm at the top at 10mm at the bottom is roughly what I'm looking for

PS just realised I am useless and still haven't taken those photo's for you, if you don't get them by tonight then please pester me

Kenny.s · Oct 31, 2012

I spoke to the elegibilty scruitineer for the sprints and hill round this way before I did anything to my car that could be considered to be in a grey area as far as the regulations go for modified series production cars.
I sent him pictures with redline mark ups on them indicating what I was planning to do, he was quite happy with everything I had in mind, I've saved the email trails from all the discussions.

From the book:

Suspension
12.8.1.

Additions and modifications to springs, shock absorbers or suspension height are free.

12.8.2.

The original type of suspension must be maintained (e.g. twin wishbone set-up cannot replace a single wishbone suspension; a sliding pillar cannot be replaced by a MacPherson strut; a trailing link cannot be replaced by wishbones or coaxial springing).

12.8.3.

A live rear axle may not be replaced by an independent system or De Dion.

12.8.4.

A live rear axle is allowed location links. If leverarm shock absorbers are an original fitment, they may be replaced by a single location link.

12.8.5.

Suspension pick-up point positions may be altered, providing the suspension system is maintained as being the original type.

12.8.6.

Road springs are free.

12.8.7.

The wheelbase must be to the dimensions of the original vehicle, plus or minus 2% or 5cm whichever

is the greater.

So from that, cutting the top off the strut tower shouldnt be an issue but you would be better consulting the eligibility scruitineer for your chosen series before doing anything like that, just in case.

The guy I spoke to said him self that the MSA rules contradict them selves in various instances and a lot of it is down to interpretation and being seen to play the game and be sensible about what your doing.
Most people would consider modfiying a strut tower to gain some castor an acceptable modification for a race car.
What I've taken from my numerous discussions with him is that they dont mind you cutting or modifying parts of the car even when it's within the wheel centres, if you have a legitimate reason and that it's going to either make the car safer or has no detrimental impact on the strength of the chassis.

A case in point is the standard seat brackets, I asked before replacing them with 40mm T45 tube and he was all for it

Quote:
Yes, ok to remove standard column mount from bulkhead and also to remove pressed tin ! mounts from floor. Much better to do as you intend with tubes welded from sill to tunnel.

Tony Hunter · Oct 31, 2012

Swede cup said:
If its just caster your wanting, plasma cut out a oblong piece from the strut top, spin it 180 and re-weld it, then you can still use PM top mounts and strut brace. You would have to be told it was done to notice it. Not suggesting you cheat or anything if regs don't allow, just bend them a little. Picturing the strut tops , you would get 20-30mm.

Interesting, but I'm not quite with you ?

MG cup · Oct 31, 2012

Yeah you could still use PMS brace if you were to use the BMW style that you linked but with the rotational type you would have to drill a lot of holes if you wanted to keep them adjustable and changed your setup regularly.

PS no rush if its too much bother just now.

Tony Hunter · Oct 31, 2012

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAMBER-PLA...81006349108%26
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E36-PI...item1c29d787eb

I know both of these say camber, but all you would have to do is turn them 90 deg.

BMW one's are cheap.

BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

Similar threads