Black Clio 172 ph2 from Russia

[Chip-mk1]

F4r geometry is that of a pimped up 1800, that's the problem. The Williams engine was a case of trying to cram extra capacity into an 1800 block in the first place then the f4r just copied it. Leaves very little room for an aftermarket builder to manoeuvre.

Xe can go to 88mm easily which means much better valve area than you can ever get in an f4r, and you can go up or down in stroke to then end up either with a mega revvy 300bhp or so 2.0 or a mega torquey 2.5 or anything in between. There is also a taller GM block you can use to get a longer stroke and still have a decent rod ratio.

For a basic competion build of off the shelf forged internals, hot cams etc and 230-240bhp the two are much of a muchness but going further the XE starts to shine.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Yeah I'll look into Mark, it won't be a few years until I go verniers (or I hope so) so I have a while, cam cover chopped into 3 bits is an idea though.

Let me know as and when and you can borrow mine. It's been used to do porkies cams recently! Lol

 

[ayk2008]

Looks good. When will you map the new manifold?

Bad news: we went to the track day yesterday and after 20 laps the engine failed. Will need to open it today or tomorrow and look inside.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Bad news: we went to the track day yesterday and after 20 laps the engine failed. Will need to open it today or tomorrow and look inside.

What power did it make when you mapped it before the trackday?

 

[ayk2008]

Why would you want to run your engine colder than 90 degrees?

Found thet Clio 197/200 thermostat is 75C degrees too and is fully compatible with Clio 172's. P/n is 8200772994. And there are two aftermarket replacements:
Vernet p/n 6047.75/J and Gates p/n TH45975G1 - price is 10-15.00 GBP only!

 

[ayk2008]

What power did it make when you mapped it before the trackday?

We didn't go to dyno, just make some light ECU correction in the garage. Finished late Saturday night to go to the trackday at Sunday morning. It was the last trackday in this season, so I wanted to test the engine ... did this

 

[EVOgone]

You don't need a dry sump for 8500rpm on an XE. That's what I used to rev my nova to.

JRE are upto 325bhp and 240lbft now on their top spec N/A XE. That's 17500 quid including everything, ecu, alternator, exhaust manifold, even a new starter motor. How much for the same on an f4r then mate?

im talking keeping it 2 ltr so your comparing apples with apples. A 2 ltr xe from JRE with 260bhp like the pm engine will be near twice the price as PM one. Any competition builder ( not home grown) of xe's will dry sump it if the limiters 8.5k.

In your later post you agree for a 240 bhp comp engine the f4r is no harder to tune than any other engine, which is the main point of discussion. Even to 260bhp I don't see there being any difference and that's a lot for a 2 ltr n/ a without going steel crank.

the latest JRE 2.4 is a little bit more than 17 k now, just over 20k i think, well when you get it a as follow competitor to my car has moved up a class and bought one but did take 6 months to built it and actually get it!

 

[Chip-mk1]

We didn't go to dyno, just make some light ECU correction in the garage. Finished late Saturday night to go to the trackday at Sunday morning. It was the last trackday in this season, so I wanted to test the engine ... did this

How did you test AFR under load in the garage?
Or did you do so on the road?

Or were you not able to do so at all?
If so then I guess if its melted then it shows the manifold is allowing a lot more air to pass through the engine, so kind of good news!

 

[Chip-mk1]

im talking keeping it 2 ltr so your comparing apples with apples.

Thats a bit silly though when one of the strengths of the XE is how much easier the geometry lends itself to increased capacity. Same for the Duratec or YB for that matter.

 

[EVOgone]

Thats a bit silly though when one of the strengths of the XE is how much easier the geometry lends itself to increased capacity. Same for the Duratec or YB for that matter.

why is it as in competition you would jump up a class going over 2 ltr. How tuneable was the point not engine capacity.

s2000 k20 engine is the easiest and cheapest to tune. Itbs and ecu and decent exhaust is 260 bhp and factory reliability. Loads available too.

 

[Chip-mk1]

why is it as in competition you would jump up a class going over 2 ltr. How tuneable was the point not engine capacity.

But increasing capacity is a good way to tune an engine, obviously depends on what rules are present, for trackdays I dont have to worry about such things though so its irrelevant to me personally.

s2000 k20 engine is the easiest and cheapest to tune. Itbs and ecu and decent exhaust is 260 bhp and factory reliability. Loads available too.

Yeah the best 4pots are hondas without a doubt.

 

[MG cup]

Yeah the best 4pots are hondas without a doubt.

Disagree lol, the k-series is potentially the best and lightest 4 pot inline block/head of them all and the Honda is a heavy copy of but yeah standard the Honda has all sorts of exotic metals in it so good out the box up to a certain level.

 

[MG cup]

Bad news: we went to the track day yesterday and after 20 laps the engine failed. Will need to open it today or tomorrow and look inside.

Not good news but like Chip says it is probably a good thing in a way from a power potential side.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Disagree lol, the k-series is potentially the best and lightest 4 pot inline block/head of them all and the Honda is a heavy copy of but yeah standard the Honda has all sorts of exotic metals in it so good out the box up to a certain level.

The K series is probably the best basic engine design of any road car, but sadly its badly implemented, so the end result doesnt live upto the genius of the core design, typical rover TBH, lacking the details that honda always get right to make it reliable!

 

[EVOgone]

Not good news but like Chip says it is probably a good thing in a way from a power potential side.

was it mapped after fitting the manifold? That's what I would ask. When I changed manifolds on the rally car the fuelling needed quite a bit doing as it created a lot of lean spots. Could be a reason for failure.

 

[MG cup]

Yup but the Honda engine was actually developed alongside Rovers engine branch hence it keeping that 'K' name as I'm sure you know. Shame it was frittered out to low level company's and allowed to have coolant system changes and poor ancillaries bolted to it as the core is 2nd to none.

 

[Chip-mk1]

was it mapped after fitting the manifold? That's what I would ask. When I changed manifolds on the rally car the fuelling needed quite a bit doing as it created a lot of lean spots. Could be a reason for failure.

Already been mentioned mate, he said they just made a few tweaks in the garage which doenst sound promising, so it probably leaned out and melted as a result of better VE.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yup but the Honda engine was actually developed alongside Rovers engine branch hence it keeping that 'K' name as I'm sure you know. Shame it was frittered out to low level company's and allowed to have coolant system changes and poor ancillaries bolted to it as the core is 2nd to none.

Rover were very good at nearly getting things right!
Some brilliant engineers and rubbish accountants!

 

[MG cup]

was it mapped after fitting the manifold? That's what I would ask. When I changed manifolds on the rally car the fuelling needed quite a bit doing as it created a lot of lean spots. Could be a reason for failure.

Yeah I would guess that's one of the reasons, it wasn't mapped before, he did mention earlier that due to time constraints he would have to map it after the trackday, I think he knew there could be trouble as he adjusted some things by guessing how well it would perform before going.

 

[ayk2008]

Yeah I would guess that's one of the reasons, it wasn't mapped before, he did mention earlier that due to time constraints he would have to map it after the trackday, I think he knew there could be trouble as he adjusted some things by guessing how well it would perform before going.

Yes, ECU was a bit "overfuelled" ... And my older manifold was also not the standard 182, but some custom designed and mapped for bigger input-output head channels etc, ... Unfortunately I was not yesterday all the day on the track, leave it 1-2 hours before this happens ... As I was told that compression in cyl #3 was lost... Will know exactly today o tomorrow (my mechanics is very busy today) ...

 

[MG cup]

I hope its a quick fix for you and you get it up and running with the same spec so we can all see what kind of results the PMS manifold is capable off.

 

[Advikaz]

Looks like a good build

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes, ECU was a bit "overfuelled" ... And my older manifold was also not the standard 182, but some custom designed and mapped for bigger input-output head channels etc, ... Unfortunately I was not yesterday all the day on the track, leave it 1-2 hours before this happens ... As I was told that compression in cyl #3 was lost... Will know exactly today o tomorrow (my mechanics is very busy today) ...

compression gone totally, or just lowered?

If is gone totally, its probably a burned valve.
Just lowered probably a melted piston.

 

[ayk2008]

If is gone totally, its probably a burned valve.

Both valve (supertech) and spring (catcams) are broken - will put the photo tonight. Respective piston and cylinder are damaged. Need to build the new engine

Any ideas if it is possible to buy just two inlet and two exhaust Supertech valves?

 

[mark123]

Sorry to hear that. Any idea what caused it?

Love your build.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Any ideas if it is possible to buy just two inlet and two exhaust Supertech valves?

Yes it's possible to buy individual inlet/exhaust valves from supertech mate. Shame about the failure.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Both valve (supertech) and spring (catcams) are broken - will put the photo tonight. Respective piston and cylinder are damaged. Need to build the new engine

Any ideas if it is possible to buy just two inlet and two exhaust Supertech valves?

Yes it definately is possible to buy then individually, PM me your email address and I will fire over the details of the guy I get them from in the states seeing as you are no doubt going to have to have the imported to russia no matter were you get them from.

I'd buy 4 of each so you have a couple of spares for next time as the postage will be way more than the valves!

 

[ayk2008]

Yes it definately is possible to buy then individually, PM me your email address and I will fire over the details of the guy I get them from in the states seeing as you are no doubt going to have to have the imported to russia no matter were you get them from.

I'd buy 4 of each so you have a couple of spares for next time as the postage will be way more than the valves!

Thank you for your help! I order 4 of each here: http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/supertech/valve-apps-Renault.html

 

[ayk2008]

BTW - what springs are more reliable, at your mind: Supertech or CatCams?

 

[Chip-mk1]

BTW - what springs are more reliable, at your mind: Supertech or CatCams?

I've used but not properly tested them I'm afraid so can't comment reliably. Both "seem" ok.
Some of the German makes are particularly good but not sure how available they are for a Clio in particular.

 

[ayk2008]

Some photos:

 

[MG cup]

Ouch, do you run any data logging? Was it an over rev?

Is that standard springs too?

 

[ayk2008]

Ouch, do you run any data logging? Was it an over rev?
Is that standard springs too?

No over rev, it was on the last lap - cooling the engine/brakes and return to paddok. The springs are CatCams ....

 

[BIGASH]

Do you think the spring was just a total failure or was there anything that could of caused it? What have catcams said about it? Do you know what rate the springs were?

 

[Ph1 Tom]

A clean shear failure like that would be a bad spring, possibly a material defect.

I assume they aren't that old. And are specified for use with the cams you have fitted.

I would not be happy with Catcams.

 

[Grant89]

This car's a credit to you, awesome bit of kit!

That's a shame about the engine but it definitely got a lot of potential with the new manifold on, it will be interesting to see how far you manage to push it power/ torque wise.

 

[ayk2008]

Do you think the spring was just a total failure or was there anything that could of caused it? What have catcams said about it? Do you know what rate the springs were?

Yes, it seems that the spring was the primarily reasons. It was CatCams springs, specially for F4R73x engine with hihght lift cams. I bought them near 3 years ago (not from CatCams but somwhere else) and all that time they was somewhere in my garage. Unfortunately I didn't save the box, so can not found the p/n, it was something like PAC-...

Yesterday I got a box with Supertech SPR-TC25S springs, will try them in my next build

 

[Chi]

Good luck with rebuild. . Awesome car this

 

[GodSpeed]

To bad with the faliure. Did you feel any differance with the new exhaust manifold?

 

[BIGASH]

Yes, it seems that the spring was the primarily reasons. It was CatCams springs, specially for F4R73x engine with hihght lift cams. I bought them near 3 years ago (not from CatCams but somwhere else) and all that time they was somewhere in my garage. Unfortunately I didn't save the box, so can not found the p/n, it was something like PAC-...

Yesterday I got a box with Supertech SPR-TC25S springs, will try them in my next build

Best of luck with the rebuild Do you find it difficult buying performance parts in Russia?