clio 172 cup no ABS, uprating brakes to safer or just as safe as ABS..

[lindleyp]

as we all know the cup comes without ABS, but my question is how to cure it.. i dont want 4 pots or anything like that

i WAS thinking braided brake lines better pads and grooved/drilled discs, but that will lock up eventually too with enugh pressure, as in an emergency natural response is to hit the brakes and i will lock up, but wit time to think yes pump the pedal and steer out the way

but id like to uprate the brakes to make them just as safe as ABS of safer, any suggstions or advice is very welcome.

thanks

 

[Peperami]

Eh? Abs just means that you can steer and brake in an emergency stop situation.

Things that make your brake activate harder wont replicate abs, they'll make the brakes lock up sooner.

Id learn to drive with good observational skills so that you dont get into situations where you'd need to brake that late, nothing you do to the braking system will replicate abs.

Have you had situations of control loss/ skidding under braking thus far with the cup?

 

[lindleyp]

Eh? Abs just means that you can steer and brake in an emergency stop situation.

Things that make your brake activate harder wont replicate abs, they'll make the brakes lock up sooner.

Id learn to drive with good observational skills so that you dont get into situations where you'd need to brake that late, nothing you do to the braking system will replicate abs.

Have you had situations of control loss/ skidding under braking thus far with the cup?

no, i havnt had to do this before, but better to be safe than sorry before anything like this could happen

im in two minds wether to get the cup 172 or the old phase 1 172..

the only things keeping me from getting the cup is the worry of no abs, so i was sondering is ther anything i can do to make breaking safer if the situation god forbid ever happens i can stop safely without locking up...

 

[White16valver]

Advanced driving skills will mean you look ahead further and don't have anything 'just happen' by 'surprise', hence you won't need to stamp on the brakes unless it really is a complete emergency.

Get yourself on a local IAM course and it will be a better investment than new pads.

 

[.Ben.]

Things that make your brake activate harder wont replicate abs, they'll make the brakes lock up sooner.

Id learn to drive with good observational skills so that you dont get into situations where you'd need to brake that late, nothing you do to the braking system will replicate abs.

^^^^ This is a sensible post.

"Cure" the lack of ABS? WTF? If you want ABS, sell up and buy a Fatboy(TM) 172...

Cadence braking FTW.

 

[lindleyp]

okay so from what ive gatherd i cant do Sweet F.A about having no abs and cant do anythign to make it better except human response and being more aware on the road... right well its buy a car with abs for me then, cheers for the help!

the phase 1 does come with abs though yes?

another quick question, with the milage of most phase 1's that go for cheapp, are they expensive to run and maintane, will i have ,ny problems with it havign so many miles looked after still?

 

[Peperami]

Seriously mate, are you aware of what abs does, what situations it works in, and what it feels like when it works?

It doesnt make the brakes 'better', sharper, or any of those things.

It means that you have some control over the steering in an 'oh s**t' moment.

 

[-Leigh-]

ABS means you can drive without a care in the world, it will save you.

 

[Fletcher]

ABS means you can drive without a care in the world, it will save you.

lol

I'd get some ferodo ds2500 pads, brembo HC discs, and some goodbridge braided lines.

 

[White16valver]

If you can't be arsed to learn to drive properly then congratulations, this is exactly why ABS was developed - to help lazy drivers with no awareness of the road get out of situations that they've got into by not looking or planning ahead.

Get some training, understand how ABS works and what it will do (help you steer round what you're trying to avoid under heavy braking in a true emergency situation, not stop quicker when you've fucked up), and you will be a better driver.

Seriously, take some pride in your driving and elevate yourself above the other muppets on the road. Don't be afraid to be told you have more to learn, a good driver is always learning. No-one knows it all or is perfect, and if they say they are then they have an over-inflated sense of self importance and are probably a shocking driver! lol

 

[Peperami]

Always make sure you're able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear...

But, yes id advise you getting the phase one mate. Have you seen any that you like?

 

[lindleyp]

lol

I'd get some ferodo ds2500 pads, brembo HC discs, and some goodbridge braided lines.

right for the cup i want to get i was thinkign of doing this,obviously it will making breking sharper and alot quicker but is ti somthing i have to be veryyyyy light footed with or can i use it with ease but caution not to just stamp all willy nilly on it and lock the buiggers up?

 

[lindleyp]

Seriously mate, are you aware of what abs does, what situations it works in, and what it feels like when it works?

It doesnt make the brakes 'better', sharper, or any of those things.

It means that you have some control over the steering in an 'oh s**t' moment.

yes im aware what abs is and does, it allows yyou to steer safelly whilst breaking and they DONT lock up....

what im trying to get at and want to know is how can i make a cup safer to break in alongst human response, what can i do to the breaks themselfes to make them better and safer if i can at all?

 

[Fletcher]

right for the cup i want to get i was thinkign of doing this,obviously it will making breking sharper and alot quicker but is ti somthing i have to be veryyyyy light footed with or can i use it with ease but caution not to just stamp all willy nilly on it and lock the buiggers up?

You should be fine with this set-up.

 

[lindleyp]

If you can't be arsed to learn to drive properly then congratulations, this is exactly why ABS was developed - to help lazy drivers with no awareness of the road get out of situations that they've got into by not looking or planning ahead.

Get some training, understand how ABS works and what it will do (help you steer round what you're trying to avoid under heavy braking in a true emergency situation, not stop quicker when you've f**ked up), and you will be a better driver.

Seriously, take some pride in your driving and elevate yourself above the other muppets on the road. Don't be afraid to be told you have more to learn, a good driver is always learning. No-one knows it all or is perfect, and if they say they are then they have an over-inflated sense of self importance and are probably a shocking driver! lol

FFS!! i hope you dont think ima lazy s**t driver whos a muppet on the road if thats what all this is implying...:S

yes i do know how abs works and im aware on the road and i do love to drive, what im trying to get through is can i do anything abou having no abs to make me stop better and safer other than human response and skill, can i do anyhing to the brakes... not myself..........

 

[Peperami]

right for the cup i want to get i was thinkign of doing this,obviously it will making breking sharper and alot quicker but is ti somthing i have to be veryyyyy light footed with or can i use it with ease but caution not to just stamp all willy nilly on it and lock the buiggers up?

If you brake properly with good use of your right foot, they shouldnt lock up. You dont have to be light footed, but dont stomp the pedal, and feather off at the end before they lock.

yes im aware what abs is and does, it allows yyou to steer safelly whilst breaking and they DONT lock up....

what im trying to get at and want to know is how can i make a cup safer to break in alongst human response, what can i do to the breaks themselfes to make them better and safer if i can at all?

Im not sure you do, as if you understood what it was, you wouldnt be asking how to replicate it.

Unless you fit abs itself, or learn to cadence brake (and even if you learn, whether you will be able to do this when a deer/ child runs out without freezing is debatable), the only thing that will replicate abs is driving in a way that you wouldnt need to use it.

Better pads will help (lines and discs will make little difference, more of a benefit for track use/ prolonged hard brake use) decrease stopping distance, but you'd risk locking the wheels up, which sounds like what you're afraid of doing.

If it worries you that much, id get the phase one mate. It'll be in the back of your mind while you're driving otherwise, and it sounds like its the better suited car for you.

 

[White16valver]

yes im aware what abs is and does, it allows yyou to steer safelly whilst breaking and they DONT lock up....

what im trying to get at and want to know is how can i make a cup safer to break in alongst human response, what can i do to the breaks themselfes to make them better and safer if i can at all?

Uprating your brakes will mean they don't fade when you have been driving hard for a while, if anything they will have similar or slightly worse 'bite' from cold due to the harder compounds in the pads that will take longer to warm up, hence not being as 'grippy' on the disks as they would be when hot when you are doing an emergency stop.

You don't need to worry about whether you're going to lock up and die in a ball of fire from uprating your brakes. Just drive normally, taking into account that they are slightly worse when cold but offer better stopping power over a longer period of time if you're going for a hard drive.

If you're worried about crashing due to stamping on the pedal, as I and others have already said, get some more driver training from the IAM or another organisation (such as those in the back of evo magazine) and they will teach you to look further ahead, plan your driving, and avoid 'surprise' situations where things happen that you have to slam the anchors on for.

 

[Munson]

Braided lines will give a slightly shorter, more consistent pedal. Better pads will allow you more control, as you'll get better retardation for less pedal effort. The brakes will still lock up eventually though. Only grip will affect the lockup point. In fact, a very good driver will be able to brake slightly harder, in the dry, without ABS.

 

[White16valver]

FFS!! i hope you dont think ima lazy s**t driver whos a muppet on the road if thats what all this is implying...:S

yes i do know how abs works and im aware on the road and i do love to drive, what im trying to get through is can i do anything abou having no abs to make me stop better and safer other than human response and skill, can i do anyhing to the brakes... not myself..........

As Peperami has already pointed out above, you can't replicate ABS other than by doing cadence braking, which you may not do if you 'freeze' in an emergency situation, therefore you can't rely on it.

Better planned driving avoids these situations, hence you won't need to worry so much about locking up!

I'm not saying you're a muppet, just that if you spent £150 on IAM training it will benefit you far, FAR more than if you just bought new pads

Do it!!

 

[Peperami]

Uprating your brakes will mean they don't fade when you have been driving hard for a while, if anything they will have similar or slightly worse 'bite' from cold due to the harder compounds in the pads that will take longer to warm up, hence not being as 'grippy' on the disks as they would be when hot when you are doing an emergency stop.

You don't need to worry about whether you're going to lock up and die in a ball of fire from uprating your brakes. Just drive normally, taking into account that they are slightly worse when cold but offer better stopping power over a longer period of time if you're going for a hard drive.

If you're worried about crashing due to stamping on the pedal, as I and others have already said, get some more driver training from the IAM or another organisation (such as those in the back of evo magazine) and they will teach you to look further ahead, plan your driving, and avoid 'surprise' situations where things happen that you have to slam the anchors on for.

It'll also make you faster, safer, and you'll enjoy driving a whole lot more

 

[ForceIndia]

I'd rather a ph1 all day long. Pretty much the same weight, but you get abs and ac. I've done a few advanced driving days, but to say that makes ABS irrelevant is naive. Even the very best drivers can get caught out, it happens. I'd rather have ABS than not.
A ph1 + decent coilovers (KW, H&R) could be had for the price of a good cup. Would be better to drive, better throttle response etc.

Cost under 4.5k. Car, KW V2 coilovers, wheels, brakes, seats, steering wheel, xenons.

 

[Craigus]

The other thousands of drivers of 172 cups seem to manage fine without ABS, why are you so worried about it. If you worry about having to do an emergency stop in a car, how do you get out of bed in the morning for fear of the satellites watching you?

If you aren't driving like a d*ck then you won't need to brake hard to avoid a lamp post so this is a null and void question, if you have to lock up to avoid a person in the road, ABS isn't gonna stop you any quicker.

 

[ForceIndia]

if you have to lock up to avoid a person in the road, ABS isn't gonna stop you any quicker.

Sorry, that's nonsense. If you're a frigging excellent driver that would be true, but for 99.9% of people on here you'd stop quicker.

 

[White16valver]

Not if it's icy - ABS doesn't work if it's sheet ice as it needs friction to 'un-lock' the wheels lol

 

[lindleyp]

You should be fine with this set-up.

thanks

 

[Craigus]

Sorry, that's nonsense. If you're a frigging excellent driver that would be true, but for 99.9% of people on here you'd stop quicker.

Not nonsense, if you are driving at 30 where it is most likely for there to be a person in the road, it is pretty hard to lock the wheels from 30 and not stop in time,

I have driven lots of cars without ABS and have only locked up once when I was doing 60 on an A road to avoid a Horse, in a town doing 30 you may lock up at the very last bit before stopping, if your brakes are in good condition, not like on some old bangers?

 

[lindleyp]

thanks for all the advice much appriciated
i will be getting the cup next if funds allow it and uprating the brakes but using them with precaution still.....

 

[White16valver]

Have a look at the IAM near you - it will make you a much better driver all round

http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroups/groupdirectory/

 

[lindleyp]

Have a look at the IAM near you - it will make you a much better driver all round

http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroups/groupdirectory/

thanks mate il take a look into this

 

[DrR]

Don't worry what even model you get they'll all break, I imagine the older ones more so.

 

[paulos]

isn't the cup version without abs 1 level higher insurance group? Or have I just made this up. I think the ABS is a handy thing for a car this powerful. You can steer in an emergency braking situation and it does shorten you stopping distance too. I braked quite hard the other day as I went over a drain cover at a set of traffic lights and the ABS cut in there. Also remember when I was doing 85 in the outside lane of the M25 and as I drew level with a van in the middle lane, he came across into my lane. F**k me I had to brake hard. The car started weaving all over the place and the esp was cutting in like it was posessed. Managed to gain control but think tbe ABS/ ESP systems save the day more than my driving skills if I'm honest.

 

[DrR]

I find that odd as my abs and ESP only come on if I'm driving like I'm on a mission.

 

[Aluco]

My 182's abs takes a hell of a lot to kick in but that could be good tyres ?

Abs is horrible in the snow too I liked not having it in my 106 it was more fun

 

[mark smith87]

I've put DS2500 pads on the front on my Ph1 and it does make a difference on a run with lots of hard braking or track days. They dont fade as long as your brake fluid isnt full of moisture. Also change the fluid if its been in the system for a while, you'll be amazed how much difference it makes. Brake fluid absorbs water and eventually gets to the point where it boils up and becomes useless leaving you with no brakes. Drive within your limits and work out your braking point as you approach a corner or hazard. In time you will learn how to read the road ahead and drive accordingly.As has been suggested go on an advanced driving course,it'll teach you a lot about setting a car up for corners and when to brake and accelerate.

 

[Munson]

Pad fade is different to boiling fluid though TBH. Pad fade results in little or no braking effort but with a firm pedal. Boiling fluid results in the pedal going soft and heading towards the floor. If you have normal pads, the odds are they will fade with heavy use, before the fluid gets hot enough to boil. Changing to race pads moves the weakest link to the fluid. IMHO. Obviously you need good fluid anyway, though.

 

[MarkCup]

Braided lines will give a slightly shorter, more consistent pedal. Better pads will allow you more control, as you'll get better retardation for less pedal effort. The brakes will still lock up eventually though. Only grip will affect the lockup point. In fact, a very good driver will be able to brake slightly harder, in the dry, without ABS.

Not always true. I found Pagid Blues to be fade resistant, but you had to lean on the pedal hard to get the best out of them.

 

[Munson]

Never tried them. I only speak from my experiences. I'm a relative novice.

 

[Baal]

If you can't be arsed to learn to drive properly then congratulations, this is exactly why ABS was developed - to help lazy drivers with no awareness of the road get out of situations that they've got into by not looking or planning ahead.

Get some training, understand how ABS works and what it will do (help you steer round what you're trying to avoid under heavy braking in a true emergency situation, not stop quicker when you've f**ked up), and you will be a better driver.

Seriously, take some pride in your driving and elevate yourself above the other muppets on the road. Don't be afraid to be told you have more to learn, a good driver is always learning. No-one knows it all or is perfect, and if they say they are then they have an over-inflated sense of self importance and are probably a shocking driver! lol

This....

Getting ABS is not upgrading the brakes, it downgrading them, you are only adding a safety system that will increase braking distance and give horrible pedal feel.

You shouldnt stomp on your brakes ever, not even in unexpected emergency situations, learn to react properly.

Actually getting higher friction pads will archieve the opposite of what you want.

 

[sideways danny]

My 182's abs takes a hell of a lot to kick in but that could be good tyres ?

Abs is horrible in the snow too I liked not having it in my 106 it was more fun

shocked it took 33 posts for someone to mention tyres. With good tyres, locking up is a lot harder. clio ABS is pretty decent, but it's not a deathtrap without it. Tyres are no1 IMO

 

[172_Cup_Lew]

threshold braking FTW lol