Clio 172 phase 1 turbo

[Chip-mk1]

Shiney bits!

Lol, I always smile when I see new shiney forged pistons despite how many sets ive used over the years, just something very cool about them

Going to make a start on yanking the engine out tomorrow if the weather is good (the garages are full so im on the driveway for this project)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well me and Danpl6 got distracted from some mapping we were meant to be doing on his car today and instead decided to pull the turbo engine apart.

It has PROPERLY bent one of the rods, like literally more than half a cm down the bore on that cylinder.

So the answer to can you run this sort of power on standard 172 rods? Is clearly NO, lol

The CR on the 197 head and megane gasket was a little higher than I was expecting, measure up at around 9.9:1 on the cylinder that didnt have a bent rod (I say around as my beurette got smashed so best I could do was measure with a syringe, far from ideal)

So the good news is that my new pistons will be spot on as the head is only a few cc bigger than the 172, not as much as I was expecting.

Going to run it around 9.5:1 on the new setup by using a clio gasket rather than a megane one.

 

[McGherkin]

LOL, it was running like that?

 

[Chip-mk1]

LOL, it was running like that?

When I took a load of you out in it at the last Exeter meet, that was the last time it was driven, so it wasnt just running, it was absolutely pulling like hell, lol

 

[Jay Payne]

Nice work. So just too much boost caused that? Or too high a compression?

Whats your best guestimate on what can be run on stock rods then?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Nice work. So just too much boost caused that? Or too high a compression?

Whats your best guestimate on what can be run on stock rods then?

Too much cylinder pressure which is a combination of boost and compression.

I think the sensible limit is as per the graph on the first page, 250lbft and 260bhp. It was mint like that, anymore is taking risks, which is fine if like me you are having some fun with an engine you are going to replace anyway but no good if you want to have it reliable.

 

[Jay Payne]

Oh so you turned it up and thats when it bent the rod?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Oh so you turned it up and thats when it bent the rod?

Yes mate, I've been running way more boost since I got it. That graph is from when I very first mapped it when Mwm were using it as a testbed.

 

[Jay Payne]

Were you still running the stock cams and dephaser?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes mate, stock 172 cams in a 197 head, stock 172 dephasor

 

[McGherkin]

When you put it back together will you be running it at the original 1 bar or cranking it up a bit?

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

When you put it back together will you be running it at the original 1 bar or cranking it up a bit?

This is chip we are talking about! He will be sensible and run a bar for about a week. Then it will be 2bar+ again!

 

[Dan@SJM]

The conversation went along the lines of "Ah, I was hoping to have a bit higher compression to help it go a bit better top end, Will just have to add a bit more boost to solve that"

 

[Jay Payne]

Yes mate, stock 172 cams in a 197 head, stock 172 dephasor

Would it be pants with fixed timing on stock cams? Does anyone do 'turbo spec' cams for these engines? Seen them for other makes

 

[Chip-mk1]

Would it be pants with fixed timing on stock cams? Does anyone do 'turbo spec' cams for these engines? Seen them for other makes

No need for the dephasor. You could leave it unplugged. The standard cams work really well turbo tbh, I think a 197 inlet one would be a good option if chasing big power but tbh on the standard box there just isn't any point IMHO in chasing numbers on these engines.
A slightly milder exhaust cam would be good for a modest power one, would imagine the f4rt cam would be suitable.

 

[Chip-mk1]

The conversation went along the lines of "Ah, I was hoping to have a bit higher compression to help it go a bit better top end, Will just have to add a bit more boost to solve that"

Tbh although the cr was high, actual compression wasn't because the rings were so tired. So I'm confident even on slightly lower cr it will still go at least as well as it did, which was plenty anyway.

 

[Paul172sport]

Ouch you did that in style. Have to keep that in mind if and when I actually get myself sorted and boost mine.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ouch you did that in style. Have to keep that in mind if and when I actually get myself sorted and boost mine.

Yeah its certainly worth keeping it in mind. The fact two have done it not just one rules out just getting unlucky on a rod too.

That said, I'm sure with the boost kept at a sensible level they would still be fine, so I would hate it to put anyone off building a 250bhp or so turbo which shouldn't have this issue. Going much past that though rods will clearly need swapping for steel ones, megane ones would be a mild upgrade but for all the hassle of changing them its silly not to just go forged really.

 

[Tutuur]

This is chip we are talking about! He will be sensible and run a bar for about a week. Then it will be 2bar+ again!

Lol! :lolup:

 

[dmallett]

Good work chip! Look forward to seeing it rebuilt and abused

 

[batesey]

How on earth was that still running lol fair play chip!

 

[Chip-mk1]

This is chip we are talking about! He will be sensible and run a bar for about a week. Then it will be 2bar+ again!

Flol

No mate, the exhaust manifold and intercooler as you know arent really suitable for massive power anyway, and I dont want the gearbox to break too often, so not really interested in chasing numbers with this particular car, you're just too used to seeing me mapping things like cosworths where the drivetrain is a lot stronger!

Genuinely going to keep this one sensible in the interests of reliability so the mrs will be able to use it on trackdays to get some experience as so far she's only really done a lot of days in her RS2 car which is a lot easier to drive, and if it keeps spitting the box out, she wont be able to use it lots.

 

[plymcl172]

What boast were you running when you took us for a ride?

Never ever been in a car like it in my life.... it was somthing else

 

[Zmaster2k]

K'inel Chip!

Thats a brilliant use of 172 rods lol!

 

[McGherkin]

What boast were you running when you took us for a ride?

Never ever been in a car like it in my life.... it was somthing else

2 bar IIRC. With banana shaped conrods!

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

2 bar IIRC. With banana shaped conrods!

Wasn't as much as 2bar I don't think. Maybe peak 1.8 holding 1bar

 

[Chip-mk1]

No mike mcgherkin is right, I had upped it again since i took you out in it, it was touching 2 bar just briefly on the over boost.

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

You utter jippo! No wonder your poor rods had a s**t!

I never expected it ever to be push that hard and stay in one piece. Bless Epic Clio!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Almost 3 times the boost you specced it for. Flol

 

[BrianB]

Chip do you have any means of preventing turbo stall (if its even an issue)? Ill be going forged later in the month and am slightly concerned about the "stall" damaging the turbo

i posted a question in the engine forum but didn't really get a straight answer, I would really like to hear your opinion on the matter as you sound like you really know your beans

 

[Chip-mk1]

Mine is a journal bearing turbo so its not really an issue mate, so Ive not fitted a dump valve or anything like that.

On my nova which has a GT35R I have a pair of atmospheric dump valves which works well, but the noise gets on my nerves so I only fit then when I have to.
A recirc one is the best compromise.

 

[Aydon182]

2 bar of boost chip? s**t. Double what I had, what bhp was it running with 2 bar of boost through that turbo?

 

[Chip-mk1]

2 bar of boost chip? s**t. Double what I had, what bhp was it running with 2 bar of boost through that turbo?

Didnt have it on the rollers mate so cant tell you, probably under 300 still I would imagine, torque was a bit nuts though, wont be that high when it goes back together though wasnt as driveable but I was just messing around having a bit of a laugh with the old engine as it was going anyway so thought I would see what it could take just out of interest.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well the rebuild all seems to have gone well, full details here: http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?672154-Clio-172-197-forged-turbo-engine-build

But thought I would copy in the main couple of updates so this thread has everything in it.

A few pics I took.

Thanks.
All went together fairly easy although one ring needed loads of filing as it was way too tight, was definitely the ring not the bore at fault as the bores were all within half a thou, but one ring was tight enough it could easily have caused a problem if I hadn't corrected it, scares me so many people just fit them without measuring!
not really a massive fan of wossner tbh but they are about the only people who do sensibly priced forged pistons for these engines so not a lot of choice.

Supertech uprated valves being lapped in by the mrs to the freshly prepped head:

Hands going so quick the camera on my iPhone couldnt keep up, lol

I will be timing the 197 cams in slightly different to how we do it on N/A 172 engines as I dont want as much overlap because it can lead to elevated EGT's which im keen to avoid given the exhaust manifold that I am using etc.

Previously the only 197 parts on my engine was the head itself, and it was using 172 cams (bear in mind Mike was only after 260bhp when he first built the car as to why he didnt do so then).

Neil isnt pricey at all IMHO for someone of that standard, the only thing to remember is that half the time you will end up needing things like valve guides and valve seats as well as the porting, which can instantly double your bill, but one of the people that I use for machine work is someone that Neil works very closely with anyway, so all those bits I get sorted prior to the head even ending up with Neil, so my bill from him is only for the actual porting work, where as if you are paying his hourly rate for him to do simple stuff like fitting valves and lapping them etc then that puts the cost up, where as I have always done that side of it myself (well until recently, my mrs now does all that instead which saves me a job although I sometimes give her a hand like I did with this head as it is marginally quicker with one person doing the spring compressor and one fitting the collets)

Couple more pictures as managed to progress a little more now, arp studs fitted and head placed on ready to torque down after lunch.

Danlp6 popped round today and gave me a hand getting the engine and box finished off and in.
I decided to time it up on standard marks rather than to retime the 197 cams like we do on the N/A engines, just because I think it will suit the power band a little better so I borrowed mike from MWM's genuine renault cam timing tools and me and Dan used those to do it.

Decided to go for a 6 paddle clutch as they tend to last a bit longer and not be quite as grabby as the 4 paddle I was running, and then to make sure it can still handle the power I swapped to using a new uprated cover rather than a standard one, total bill for the clutch inc delivery was 477, ouch!

Degreased it as they have a protective coating on which needs to be removed:

Then it was just a case of lobbing it in the hole.

Hopefully will get a chance to plumb it all in next weekend and then the weekend after I can start with mapping it and running it in so its done before bedford as Ive got a ludicous amount of work on at the moment so just having to try and squeeze it in around that, TBH if it wasnt for Dan giving me a hand a few times I think that I probably wouldnt be done in time so Im really greatful to him for that

Dan was round again this afternoon so we cracked on, all back together now and we have done the first twenty miles to start running it in, with dan driving and me adjusting the map as we went as obviously with different cams now its fuelling requirements have changed.

Feels mint so far




MASSIVE thanks to danlp6 as I'm now a couple of weeks ahead of schedule thanks to him helping me out the last few weekends.

Decided I'm going to take this with me while working away from home this week. So it should be completely run in by the time I get home for next weekend.

Must say im not looking forward to it in m25 traffic tbh with the paddle clutch and no icv. It's very easy to stall!

Done about 270 miles now, started to very occasionally rev it to around 5krpm just to vary the load but only for a couple of seconds every few mins of driving.

Still driving mint so far. Going to leave it parked at hotel till Thursday now other than i need to drive about 100 miles to go fetch some arrow conrods for a duratec engine which i will probably do monday night then walk rest of the week rather than cold start it just to sit it in London area traffic for a couple miles a day which won't do anything useful.

By the time I drive it home Thursday evening it will be fully run in and I can change the oil then map it for some boost and revs.

 

[Hixle]

Brilliant work mate, got that in quick! Well done gents.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Brilliant work mate, got that in quick! Well done gents.

Yeah I am well ahead of schedule now which is a nice feeling. Was originally working on the timescale of having it in the hole by the weekend just gone, then getting it plumbed in and first start next weekend, where as by next weekend it will be run in now and should be mapped well enough for a shakedown, although Im probably not going to run loads of boost just yet, will probably just go for just around 10psi for now which should put it back in the 250bhp or so ballpark on a conservative map done on the road, unless I end up having enough free time to book some rollers before bedford (unlikely though, got too much paid work on at the moment which takes priority)


Once again HUGE thanks to Danlp6 from this forum for keep popping round the last few weekends, he has massively helped me out with this and if it wasnt for him then even hitting my original timescale would have been a real push on my own with only realistically having a few hours a weekend that I could work on it. He is far more familiar with these cars than I am so him being around got a lot of jobs done in less than half the time it would have taken me on my own.

 

[Craigie-B]

Had a quick lift in this yesturday - felt really fast even on 6psi and not reving too high as well.

Fantastic car

 

[Chip-mk1]

Had a quick lift in this yesturday - felt really fast even on 6psi and not reving too high as well.

Fantastic car

I actually gave Danlp6 a race in his RS2 and 197 cams Ph2, and there wasnt a huge amount in it, he beat me as I was changing gear at 5K (this was only a very brief pull from 50-100mph once as still running it in) but I reckon I'd actually beat a standard 172 already, lol, and with a few more rpm could have beaten him.

Your valver was looking good, great to see it back like that again after the crash, I thought it was a gonna when I saw the crash pics!

 

[Craigie-B]

I actually gave Danlp6 a race in his RS2 and 197 cams Ph2, and there wasnt a huge amount in it, he beat me as I was changing gear at 5K (this was only a very brief pull from 50-100mph once as still running it in) but I reckon I'd actually beat a standard 172 already, lol, and with a few more rpm could have beaten him.

Your valver was looking good, great to see it back like that again after the crash, I thought it was a gonna when I saw the crash pics!

yeah I thought it was pretty shot away mate, luckily my dads a magician and shes back You were deffinatly right, the mini is pretty much the same as a valver

 

[Jakey92]

I actually gave Danlp6 a race in his RS2 and 197 cams Ph2, and there wasnt a huge amount in it, he beat me as I was changing gear at 5K

Would the car still have the 5K kick even with the turbo or will that be mapped out?