I didn't realise you upped the boost. What power is this making roughly now?
This thread makes me wish I kept my Clio. Once I sell my car I'm set on buying another Clio and setting about doing a budget boost build over time
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I didn't realise you upped the boost. What power is this making roughly now?
This thread makes me wish I kept my Clio. Once I sell my car I'm set on buying another Clio and setting about doing a budget boost build over time
never had it back on the rollers again mate. I'm not a massive chaser of numbers tbh, especially not for low power cars like this.
At a guess about 300lbft and 280bhp when the engine was still in reasonable nick. By the time I took it off the road probably back down to 250 again.
This thread makes me wish I kept my Clio. Once I sell my car I'm set on buying another Clio and setting about doing a budget boost build over time
They are epic fun mate. Although this car is only temporary. I bet I will keep it ages just cause me and the mrs both enjoy it so bloody much. Lol.
Thanks for the numbers mate, 9:1 f4rt pistons might not be too bad then if I run a 172 gasket instead of the megane one which is thicker.
iirc that will claw back about 4cc or so. Bit of a block skim and a head cleanup and I should be high 8s, I can live with that.
iirc that will claw back about 4cc or so. Bit of a block skim and a head cleanup and I should be high 8s, I can live with that.
Bluebeard
ClioSport Moderator
Whichever has fuel
Gods honest truth, you may as well have written that in japanese becaue it means NOTHING to me.
All I want to know is when is it back and can I have a go?
Head alone doesn't. Mine is on a thicker gasket too.
will have to check the numbers but iirc mine is about 12cc bigger, with just over half that in the head and the rest in the gasket.
Wonder what pistons the 197 turbo boys are running.
I'm aiming for about feb/march time mate. And yes of course you can.
Well i guess now you have these figures you could work it out
i have some 225 pistons in great nick which i would sell so just let me know!
Thanks for the offer but I would want forged ones.
Will have to get the head off mine and cc it for some definitive answers.
Do you have the standard head volume for the williams head?
Only I have found some 11.2:1 compression pistons listed for the williams, which look like they might be promising for turbo pistons for the 197 head, as going on your spreadsheet there, the williams are a little bigger dish than the F4R in the first place, so a higher comp version of the williams ones potentially could be a good option for being close to the standard F4R ones.
The Pin height of the williams ones was higher iirc, as you could potentially fit a set of williams ones to an 74r and get a semi high compression.
0.4mm difference on that sheet, yes that would indeed more than cancel out the 0.6mm deeper bowl.
So that rules those ones out too.
Looking like being a real PITA to find a readily available (hence sensibly priced unlike a custom set) piston to work with the 197 head
Really dont want to go back to a 172 head though as I dont like the inlet.
So that rules those ones out too.
Looking like being a real PITA to find a readily available (hence sensibly priced unlike a custom set) piston to work with the 197 head
Really dont want to go back to a 172 head though as I dont like the inlet.
I look to be free on saturday now mate, Just got to build the box up with the quaife and then I can fire across?
R5 gtt, R27 F1 team
I've had a few jc and jb's split up. It isn't too hard really.
There's a manual floating around the internet which would be of help.
But are you seriously considering spending that much money on the Clio?
Afaik the pistons will do the exact same cr in either of the engines.
So f4r pistons will be a worthwhile upgrade for a f7r when tuning NA.
Why don't you just use the stock pistons again? It worked flawless right?
Source a low mileage BE, fit the head and spend the rest of the money on the mk1
I know someone who has a low mileage f4r for sale ( based in the UK, lol)
Edit: this is the one:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/uijen/MRBVJBJC.pdf
Although it's in Dutch maybe you could use the pics or translate it.
I do believe i've seen one in English too
There's a manual floating around the internet which would be of help.
But are you seriously considering spending that much money on the Clio?
Afaik the pistons will do the exact same cr in either of the engines.
So f4r pistons will be a worthwhile upgrade for a f7r when tuning NA.
Why don't you just use the stock pistons again? It worked flawless right?
Source a low mileage BE, fit the head and spend the rest of the money on the mk1
I know someone who has a low mileage f4r for sale ( based in the UK, lol)
Edit: this is the one:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/uijen/MRBVJBJC.pdf
Although it's in Dutch maybe you could use the pics or translate it.
I do believe i've seen one in English too
Last edited:
Thanks for the manual link.
TBH there seems little point using standard pistons if I can find some that are suitable CR, as it doesnt change the cost by much, I can probably get rods and pistons (if I can decide which ones, for under 800 including rod bolts)
(prices rattled off the top of my head and intended to be approx only)
Rebuild standard bottom end and fit diff:
diff: 900
donor low miles motor: 200 (wouldnt want one thats done a belt either these pistons are weak to start with let alone after being whacked!)
ARP head studs : 200
Supertech valves : 400
Gaskets and belts : 200
pumps and fluids: 250
Piston rings : 150
ARP rod bolts : 75
Running in fuel : 50
Remapping fuel and time on rollers I rent : 200
Total : 2225
Same thing but swap:
donor motor : 200
pistons rings: 150
rods bolts: 75
= 425
for
Machining work: 100
rods/pistons/rings/bolts : 800
= 900
So it only puts the cost up from 2225 to 2700
Thats a pretty small increase to have the extra security of steel rods and forged pistons and the extra benefits of a bored block not just a honed one in terms of durability
TBH there seems little point using standard pistons if I can find some that are suitable CR, as it doesnt change the cost by much, I can probably get rods and pistons (if I can decide which ones, for under 800 including rod bolts)
(prices rattled off the top of my head and intended to be approx only)
Rebuild standard bottom end and fit diff:
diff: 900
donor low miles motor: 200 (wouldnt want one thats done a belt either these pistons are weak to start with let alone after being whacked!)
ARP head studs : 200
Supertech valves : 400
Gaskets and belts : 200
pumps and fluids: 250
Piston rings : 150
ARP rod bolts : 75
Running in fuel : 50
Remapping fuel and time on rollers I rent : 200
Total : 2225
Same thing but swap:
donor motor : 200
pistons rings: 150
rods bolts: 75
= 425
for
Machining work: 100
rods/pistons/rings/bolts : 800
= 900
So it only puts the cost up from 2225 to 2700
Thats a pretty small increase to have the extra security of steel rods and forged pistons and the extra benefits of a bored block not just a honed one in terms of durability
R5 gtt, R27 F1 team
i meant you'll leave the BE untouched bar the arp bolts. but fair enough i get the point if you're rebuilding it better to do it right at once.
mwm has fitted the inlet mani on the 172 head before right? if you like the mani you could adapt it to the 172 head and just buy some low CR pistons for the 172, problem solved
probably you could sell the head for decent money too for someone's low boost build.
only 900 for the diff? that's cheap! plate or atb?
i don't have the balls to fit a lsd to a box which is already made of chocolate
mwm has fitted the inlet mani on the 172 head before right? if you like the mani you could adapt it to the 172 head and just buy some low CR pistons for the 172, problem solved
probably you could sell the head for decent money too for someone's low boost build.
only 900 for the diff? that's cheap! plate or atb?
i don't have the balls to fit a lsd to a box which is already made of chocolate
Yeah adapting the 197 inlet to fit a 172 head is a possibility, then I could use f4rt 9:1 or 9.5:1 forged pistons, have already considered that
Quaiffe diff mate, atb type, I get a good deal on quiaffe stuff.
agreed on being a bad idea in the standard box. That's why I'm going Honda for the mk1.
but without it the car will be a lot less enjoyable on track than with so I will risk it.
Quaiffe diff mate, atb type, I get a good deal on quiaffe stuff.
agreed on being a bad idea in the standard box. That's why I'm going Honda for the mk1.
but without it the car will be a lot less enjoyable on track than with so I will risk it.
Ps
based on some assumptions, which I need to measure when the head is off. I think f4rt forged standard cr pistons with a 172 gasket (thinner) and 197 head (bigger) would give me about 8.14:1
bit low but not end of the world I suppose. Head doesn't look like it would let me chop the 2mm off that I would like to. Lol.
based on some assumptions, which I need to measure when the head is off. I think f4rt forged standard cr pistons with a 172 gasket (thinner) and 197 head (bigger) would give me about 8.14:1
bit low but not end of the world I suppose. Head doesn't look like it would let me chop the 2mm off that I would like to. Lol.
R5 gtt, R27 F1 team
well atleast the jc5's are beefier than jb3's. and tbh i do think lot's of gearbox failures are driver induced!
personally i don't get why you are going through such hassle when the solution is already there. with a bit of luck Mike(?) still has the head.
i believe the only thing to accomodate the manifold was redrilling for the other bolt pattern?
8,14 is way too low imo, i have around 8,9 now not considering the head and deck skimmage so guess somewhere around 9/9,1:1.
personally i don't get why you are going through such hassle when the solution is already there. with a bit of luck Mike(?) still has the head.
i believe the only thing to accomodate the manifold was redrilling for the other bolt pattern?
8,14 is way too low imo, i have around 8,9 now not considering the head and deck skimmage so guess somewhere around 9/9,1:1.
What you are saying completely baffles me.
So you are going to build a new engine which is much more reliable and strong to enable you to run more power?
Also what does the 197 head actually allow you to do?
Explain in simple terms please
So you are going to build a new engine which is much more reliable and strong to enable you to run more power?
Also what does the 197 head actually allow you to do?
Explain in simple terms please
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
I have a 172 head adapted to accept a 197 inlet manifold. It's not just a simple case of re-drilling the head to accept the manifold either.
There's a lot of reshaping to do on the inlet ports as well. Read that as s**t loads!
Cub.
ClioSport Moderator
I have my old gearbox you can have, let you practice on it without breaking yours lol. It's kaput, so after you've finished with it, throw it away. You'll need to let me know as its up in Warwick at mates so I'll need to pick it up.
Northloopcup, Yeah I was around when mike and jack did it. That's what I was referring to about the ports not being a good match.
Dmallet, it's the inlet I want more than the head, can get to plugs easier, better access down the front for filter changes, no fuel rail guard needed etc. not a big deal, just stuff I don't want to lose if I can avoid doing so.
Dmallet, it's the inlet I want more than the head, can get to plugs easier, better access down the front for filter changes, no fuel rail guard needed etc. not a big deal, just stuff I don't want to lose if I can avoid doing so.
Cub.
ClioSport Moderator
Ps. I have sad panda face that I have not had a ride in this yet.
Cub.
ClioSport Moderator
No worries, I've left it at aforementioned mates garage, so when I finally get a garage I'll take it apart, stare at it like a gormless monkey, then attempt to put it together, telling myself its a learning experience.
Cub.
ClioSport Moderator
A new frontier of exploration Chip old boy
I've done 1 or 2 JC5's, Hate the things. THey're spring loaded I swear as they always just fall to bits just as your putting the case over the other side of the bench. The 02M is a pleasure to build tbh, Remove, strip/rebuild/install Diff, check end float/adjust/fit the case and refit in the car in under 7 hours.
These turned up today, Wossener Megane forged pistons and some steel conrods.
I believe that by running the clio headgasket rather than the megane one like I am on currently (clio one is thinner), and by skimming the 197 head, I can get the CR to somewhere back where I would like it to be using these pistons (dont want it under 8.5:1, somewhere around 9.0 would be good now that im using the same manifold again, was thinking of going as high as 9.5:1 if I went for a bigger turbo and better manifold but there is just no point on the standard gearbox, so im just looking for the same power that I had before but on a nice fresh engine)
I believe that by running the clio headgasket rather than the megane one like I am on currently (clio one is thinner), and by skimming the 197 head, I can get the CR to somewhere back where I would like it to be using these pistons (dont want it under 8.5:1, somewhere around 9.0 would be good now that im using the same manifold again, was thinking of going as high as 9.5:1 if I went for a bigger turbo and better manifold but there is just no point on the standard gearbox, so im just looking for the same power that I had before but on a nice fresh engine)
PS
You can see how they arent massively bigger dish than a standard piston compared to this picture:
So I am pretty confident that by losing a few cc out of the head gasket and a couple of cc with a head skim, I will end up not too far away where it is now which im happy with how it drives.
You can see how they arent massively bigger dish than a standard piston compared to this picture:
So I am pretty confident that by losing a few cc out of the head gasket and a couple of cc with a head skim, I will end up not too far away where it is now which im happy with how it drives.
