cs_rich's Fiesta ST3

[Willo40]

I know that 'i had a [insert supercar] off the lights' stories put me fully in pleb territory, but I already have fake carbon wing mirrors and a noisy dump valve, so wtf do I care....

Anyway, when I was nearly back home last night I ended up behind an M3 Touring. After a while the road cleared in front of us, we both accelerated hard and he didn't manage to pull away from me. (I know, usual caveats, not really trying, didn't know I was there, was cruising in 9th gear / comfort etc.). I've no doubt he'd have destroyed me off the line, or with a few manual gear changes slowing me down, but in-gear and not limited by traction I seemed to have the measure of him. (makes sense I guess, 290bhp/ton vs. 280bhp/ton).

I felt sorry for him though, as at the next roundabout we did the same thing. I smashed it up to 60mph and backed off, while he just kept piling on the speed..... the entire way through the average speed check zone. Clearly not a local.

Didn't take long did it...

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Didn't take long did it...

It would appear I've always been basic. It's just it's taken me 40 years to realise it.

 

[_Tom]

Awesome! Almost the same bhp per tonne as my C63. 😆

What sort of torque do they make?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Awesome! Almost the same bhp per tonne as my C63. 😆

What sort of torque do they make?

Looks like 280-300lbft from the dyno plots I've seen online.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Had a play with my Dragy and am somewhat unsurprised to find that my 0-60 time has actually got worse. On the old tune you got a little wheelspin in 1st but could just pin it in 2nd and it'd grip from then on. WIth the new setup, 2nd is spinning up from about 50mph and 1st is just a bonfire. Either the traffic light grand prix are going to have to wait or I'm going to have to learn some throttle control.

That said I'm seeing a nice improvement 30-70mph time. Stock figure was 7.2s and I measured 5.3s on the CP2-E tune. It's now doing 4.5s on the CP4 tune and I reckon with warmer tyres and a better road it'll go even quicker as I'm losing a fair bit of time going from 2nd to 3rd.

 

[Christopher.]

@The Psychedelic Socialist what rear beam bushes did you go with ?

How you finding the car now with the added power?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

@The Psychedelic Socialist what rear beam bushes did you go with ?

How you finding the car now with the added power?

Think it was a set of Powerflex purple ones.

Really good still. It's certainly a struggle to use all of the power in current conditions, but I'm able to use more than the 230bhp it had previously so it still feels like good value. When you get a nice bit of dry road and a little space it really does haul in 2nd and 3rd though.

Looking forward to some warm dry roads next year though...

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Decided to get a FORScan cable as I had a niggling feeling the car wasn't as fast as when it just had the CP4 package fitted. Got it all set up and took it out for a spin only to find that if anything it's making slightly more power now then before, so clearly I'm getting used to it. Must be time for a big turbo...

Going from the logs it's flowing 227g/s through the MAF which puts it around 325bhp @ 7,200rpm (the old figure was from a run at about 8C ambient while this run was probably closer to 3C, so not a huge difference).

The (private) roads round our way are still pretty cold and greasy so I couldn't get a full set of acceleration figures from the Dragy, but I did get a clear run from 60-100mph in 6.2s which compares to 14.9s stock. That said, it's much better at putting the power down in 2nd than I'd expected given the weather. If you're not too heavy footed in the mid-range it tends not to break traction much at all.

IATs looked good too with only a 5/6C rise after a pull. Collins had been a bit nervous about the Wagner intercooler but both their figures and mine show it being up to the job. Probably worth a test again in summer but I'd assume (?) that the rise would be consistent, it's just the soak for repeated runs might be worse.

I even found a thread with MarkCup's old MP215 logs on the Fiesta forums and they were showing a 14C rise above ambient, with some other guy showing a 21C rise on a different map, so I've hopefully got a good bit of headroom.

Graph, obviously:

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Im not sure you will find the rise to be the same in summer and winter but it does sound as if you have plenty of head room

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Im not sure you will find the rise to be the same in summer and winter but it does sound as if you have plenty of head room

That's the hope. IIRC that guy with the 21C rise was measured at something like 6C ambient so unless his engine went pop as soon as the weather perked up I'm probably a long way from any issues.

 

[Poopensharten]

How much power can these engines take on stock internals? That must fly!

 

[RSRowe]

330-350 is fairly ‘normal’ nowadays with a hybrid turbo on the standard internals. There’s obviously outliers who run more too.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

How much power can these engines take on stock internals? That must fly!

Yeah, quite a lot!

Pumaspeed will take it up to 380bhp on stock internals before requiring forged internals on their 400bhp package. Collins don't offer a forged package but their CP5 build is ~350bhp on stock internals too IIRC.

It's a really sturdy little lump (famous last words) and Ford even fitted it with an AP Racing clutch that seems to handle the torque on a hybrid build with no slippage. If you have a look at Mountune they are insisting on forged internals for their Mk8 285bhp package, but not on their 310bhp Mk7 package.

 

[Poopensharten]

Yeah, quite a lot!

Pumaspeed will take it up to 380bhp on stock internals before requiring forged internals on their 400bhp package. Collins don't offer a forged package but their CP5 build is ~350bhp on stock internals too IIRC.

It's a really sturdy little lump (famous last words) and Ford even fitted it with an AP Racing clutch that seems to handle the torque on a hybrid build with no slippage. If you have a look at Mountune they are insisting on forged internals for their Mk8 285bhp package, but not on their 310bhp Mk7 package.

What sort of money is involved to get them to 300bhp?

I’m planning on booking my S1 in for May!

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

What sort of money is involved to get them to 300bhp?

I’m planning on booking my S1 in for May!

I did it in a bit of an odd order, buying some 'Stage 2' [insert abuse] mods that had to be upgraded for the hybrid (notably the IC and intake), but I think £3k fitted would probably cover it all. Not bad for an extra 125bhp IMO.

I do love the Fiesta and struggle to think what I could replace it with, but a lightly modified S1 is right up there, especially in Vegas Yellow.

 

[Poopensharten]

I did it in a bit of an odd order, buying some 'Stage 2' [insert abuse] mods that had to be upgraded for the hybrid (notably the IC and intake), but I think £3k fitted would probably cover it all. Not bad for an extra 125bhp IMO.

I do love the Fiesta and struggle to think what I could replace it with, but a lightly modified S1 is right up there, especially in Vegas Yellow.

Mate i constantly wonder what i’d replace it with and i struggle - well spec’d, good history, why would i?

Looking seriously at going stage 2 in May to keep it interesting, its just fantastic i can only imagine with 360bhp it’ll be even better.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Mate i constantly wonder what i’d replace it with and i struggle - well spec’d, good history, why would i?

Looking seriously at going stage 2 in May to keep it interesting, its just fantastic i can only imagine with 360bhp it’ll be even better.

Definitely. I'm not regretting this power level with FWD, so a even more with AWD should be an absolute blast. Uprated clutch time though presumably?

 

[Not a Diesel!!!]

Really is mad power to weight.

Am I right in thinking you can get no where near this power on Mk8 without deeper pockets?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Really is mad power to weight.

Am I right in thinking you can get no where near this power on Mk8 without deeper pockets?

That's my understanding in general, though Pumaspeed do a 315bhp 'Stage 3R' package for £4k fitted (cheaper if you go with a decat) with no mention of forged parts.

Similar packages from Collins (CP3 - 300bhp) and Mountune (m285 - 285bhp) both require forged internals which is another £4k fitted (Mountune price).

I guess you could risk it, but when two major tuners insist on forging and one doesn't, I'd be nervous. None of them recommend forging for their Mk7 packages until you get close to 400bhp.

Plus with the Mk8 there's all kinds of nonsense around the GPF. I think all the tuners recommend / require it to be removed entirely for anything other than their basic map and that puts you into dodgy MoT territory. Mk7 has no such issues as mine still has a cat and passes MoT and emissions with no trouble.

 

[Poopensharten]

Definitely. I'm not regretting this power level with FWD, so a even more with AWD should be an absolute blast. Uprated clutch time though presumably?

Aye will need a clutch at the same time unfortunately, weak set up as standard!

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Some nice dry roads today and a bit warmer than last time, so I did a bit more logging:

IATs maxed out at 8°C above ambient (12°C today) which is a couple of degrees worse than last time (2°C ambient), so not significantly change given how much warmer it was. Probably worth my while leaving FORScan running for some back to back runs to get an idea of what the heat soak and recovery is like, especially as it starts to get warmer.

Tried to log a few other parameters but I'm not really making much sense of them.

The MAP sensor seems to clip at 255kPa (absolute) which I'm hitting at 4,500rpm, so my boost graph is just a completely flat line after that. Though I'm not entirely sure that I'm logging the correct sensor (MAP(kPa) on the OBDII channel on FORScan).

I had also wanted to try and get some AFRs but again, I don't know if I'm reading them right. I logged EQ_RAT(%) and EQ_RAT11 but the former was basically just 0.78 for the whole run and the latter was just 1. I think you can multiply the 0.78 by 14.6 to get an AFR of 11.4, but that seems pretty rich to me, and also seems wrong given that it doesn't change at all. Similarly I've seen tables that suggest an EQ of 0.78 is an AFR of 18.8, but given my pistons aren't currently a cooling puddle of ruined metal, I assume that's also wrong.

The only other log that seemed to make sense was the ignition advance:

But to be honest, I'm not really sure what to look out for here. Going from some other Fiesta ST data logs, 12° of advance seems fairly standard, though I've seen some maps go up to 20°. I'm running 98RON exclusively (and that's what the map requires) so I'd have thought there's scope for more advance, but I'm wondering if I'm limited on other factors now. Going from the MAF readings it's at the absolute top end of the S270 turbo's performance anyway so it's not like I'm missing out on any extra power.

While I was out I had another quick blast on the Dragy. Still struggling for grip but I managed a 0-60 time of 5.9s. It's still the launch itself that's the problem as on that run, 0-30 was 3.2s, while 30-60 was 2.6s. With ideal conditions I think I could probably find another couple of tenths, but it's really not a car for launching at the lights.

 

[McGherkin]

22psi of boost doesn’t sound too wild, but it’s unlikely that the engine would keep making more boost if the MAP sensor were really maxing out, so it’s probably how you’re reading it, or it’s hit a target boost pressure.

0.78x14.7=11.46 AFR which tbh is fairly normal for a boosted engine. When you say it stayed around 0.78 throughout, was that the whole time you were accelerating or even off throttle/light throttle?

Ignition advance varies per engine really, someone else might be able to run 20 degrees but they might be running far less boost or a different compression ratio.

Air flow suggests in the region of 320bhp so not bad at all tbh.

 

[David Stuart]

Glad I still subscribe to this thread. I’ve still got a clio but got myself a fiesta ST again at the tail end of last year.

It’s an absolute monster with a full engine build. Closed deck block, forged Internals, s280 turbo and water meth injection. 400bhp in a front wheel drive car it insane. It does have a diff but there is no chance getting any traction in lower gears.

Due to take it out on track in a few weeks time. I have taken it to a local hillclimb but there is just too much power and turbo lag for it to make sense there. Hoping at Knockhill it all comes together. I might take it back to get mapped by gear and get the power delivery a bit more linear depending on how the track day goes.

 

[R3k1355]

I had also wanted to try and get some AFRs but again, I don't know if I'm reading them right. I logged EQ_RAT(%) and EQ_RAT11 but the former was basically just 0.78 for the whole run and the latter was just 1.

The car has a Wideband sensor as stock yea?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

22psi of boost doesn’t sound too wild, but it’s unlikely that the engine would keep making more boost if the MAP sensor were really maxing out, so it’s probably how you’re reading it, or it’s hit a target boost pressure.

0.78x14.7=11.46 AFR which tbh is fairly normal for a boosted engine. When you say it stayed around 0.78 throughout, was that the whole time you were accelerating or even off throttle/light throttle?

Ignition advance varies per engine really, someone else might be able to run 20 degrees but they might be running far less boost or a different compression ratio.

Air flow suggests in the region of 320bhp so not bad at all tbh.

Boost hit 255kPa at about 4,500rpm and held it until ignition started to cut at 7,290. Literally didn't change, even by 1 kPa, so I have to assume that it's peaking above that figure otherwise you'd surely expect to see some variation over those ~3,000rpm?

That EQ reading was 0.78 for the entire WOT portion of the run. The whole logging period looked like this:

You can see where it drops to 0.78 on WOT between 20,000ms and 30,000ms, before shooting up to 2 once I lifted off the throttle.

Glad I still subscribe to this thread. I’ve still got a clio but got myself a fiesta ST again at the tail end of last year.

It’s an absolute monster with a full engine build. Closed deck block, forged Internals, s280 turbo and water meth injection. 400bhp in a front wheel drive car it insane. It does have a diff but there is no chance getting any traction in lower gears.

Due to take it out on track in a few weeks time. I have taken it to a local hillclimb but there is just too much power and turbo lag for it to make sense there. Hoping at Knockhill it all comes together. I might take it back to get mapped by gear and get the power delivery a bit more linear depending on how the track day goes.

Very nice, that's got to be a handful in the wet! Though the last thing I need is someone telling me how good their ST is with another 70bhp....

The car has a Wideband sensor as stock yea?

I believe so.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Graph of MAP sensor reading vs. RPM during the run:

That looks like a clip to me, and 255 is the maximum value of a single byte variable.

 

[McGherkin]

Yeah that all just looks weird, both lambda and MAP.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Yeah that all just looks weird, both lambda and MAP.

I've just had a look at MAP logging for other STs and it does seem like all the maps on the OE turbo keep below 36psi (absolute) which is 255kPa, though most of the stage 2 maps are getting close to it. It's probably not a leap to think that the hybrid is hitting that and just maxing out either the sensor / logging value, to give that razor sharp clipping.

f**k knows on the lambda though. Is it possible I'm reading the requested, rather than the actual value? Presumably that would be more constant, with the actual value varying more in practice?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

I have no clue what the graphs mean (EQ RAT?);

However - you want to look at MAT not on a fresh pull but after several. On track the MAT is going to be a very different story to what you are currently logging.

Super general but historically I have targeted 12.7:1 pre peak torque and 11.5 post peak torque. Dropping down to 11:1 at higher rpm, or when the WOT even has been extended, sometimes down to 10.8 on a very long run (wot for > 10s, which you would experience on a top speed run).

You drop torque/power with AFR much below 11:1 but gain cylinder cooling. Combustion chamber design has a lot to do with what AFR you run at peak torque, some cars make more torque when an AFR > 13:1 however you are always playing a bit of a cat/mouse game with knock ime.

If you are genuinely interested in this then you should install a separate wide band lambda and log that against map. You also have to be a tad careful where you pull values from, for example the timing table is absolute? or a boost correction table? To me 6degs at 4500 seems pretty retarded, while the absolute timing might be closer to 20degs peak - if thats makes sense?

Right now, if your EGT is within reason and you don't log horrid knock events (maybe graph that too if you can?) then all is well in the world - send it.

Retarded timing = very high egt = burn exhaust valves.
Overly advanced timing does not = more torque but can = more knock.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

And yes, that map value you show above is clipping.

 

[MarkCup]

I so want to have a ride in this at CSF 😁

I haven't been in an ST since the day I let mine go, sniff.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

I have no clue what the graphs mean (EQ RAT?);

However - you want to look at MAT not on a fresh pull but after several. On track the MAT is going to be a very different story to what you are currently logging.

Super general but historically I have targeted 12.7:1 pre peak torque and 11.5 post peak torque. Dropping down to 11:1 at higher rpm, or when the WOT even has been extended, sometimes down to 10.8 on a very long run (wot for > 10s, which you would experience on a top speed run).

You drop torque/power with AFR much below 11:1 but gain cylinder cooling. Combustion chamber design has a lot to do with what AFR you run at peak torque, some cars make more torque when an AFR > 13:1 however you are always playing a bit of a cat/mouse game with knock ime.

If you are genuinely interested in this then you should install a separate wide band lambda and log that against map. You also have to be a tad careful where you pull values from, for example the timing table is absolute? or a boost correction table? To me 6degs at 4500 seems pretty retarded, while the absolute timing might be closer to 20degs peak - if thats makes sense?

Right now, if your EGT is within reason and you don't log horrid knock events (maybe graph that too if you can?) then all is well in the world - send it.

Retarded timing = very high egt = burn exhaust valves.
Overly advanced timing does not = more torque but can = more knock.

Thanks for this.

I'm not particularly interested in fiddling with the hardware or changing things, just a mix of academic interest and feeling like I ought to just double check it's not going to blow up on me.

What's the MAT? I think I probably need to sit in the car with the laptop open again and check what I can log. IIRC in FORSCan I have the choice of monitoring just one module (?) at a time and I chose OBDII, which had all the readings listed above (and some more I didn't log). There is also a PCM module listed which has a load more outputs but I don't think it had IAT and as that was the priority today I just stuck to the OBDII set.

As you say, I'm just looking to make sure everything's within fairly safe ranges. By the looks of it the IAT is absolutely fine (well, subject to some back to back runs being okay), so you reckon it'd be sufficient to log EGTs and lambdas (in some form)? What would I be looking for on the EGT?

Understood on the absolute / relative values too. WIth respect to the timing it's interesting to see some other logs for some stage 2 maps (OE turbo):

I'd assume they're reading the same sensor as me given we all seem to start around 6°, but they both end up around 20°. I've also dug out the actual logging Collins did after installing the hybrid and mapping it, and that shows SPARKADV of 12.5° at peak power / rpm as well.

They're also pulling a sensor called O2B1S2w which is reading 0.823 (12.1 AFR?) at peak power with a handwritten note saying "target 0.78-0.85", and that number is changing slightly over time, so my EQ reading can't be anything useful. I'll see if I can find this sensor on FORScan.

I so want to have a ride in this at CSF 😁

I haven't been in an ST since the day I let mine go, sniff.

I'll book you in!

 

[Robbie Corbett]

I don't think thats total advance. In the last graph of someone elses map it shoes -5degs of timing at 1500rpm which isn't right. It might be that your ecu uses a base timing value, and the ignition advance you are pulling is added to that base timing value to equal total advance. Or it could be there is a whole base table, the values you are pulling represent a correction table. Sometimes there are maps which tuners can't easily adjust so they fudge things by changing this 'correction table'. I honestly have no clue when it comes to newer OEM ecus and their control strategies - so there is a very high chance I am talking utter bs.

MAT/IAT are largely the same. I suppose if you were being super anal you would call it IAT if the sensor is at the intake and MAT if its on the inlet manifold but the terms are for the most part interchangeable.

With regard to IAT, do you know where the sensor you are reading from is located? Needs to be after the intercooler (obvs, it probably is) for you to be making conclusions. If it is after the intercooler then I wouldn't be at all concerned until the temperature gets waay above ambient. The ecu will have another table which retards timing progressively as the intake temps rise, normally they will start pulling timing progressively above 50degs C (on the stuff I have seen anyway). Basically dont sweat it - it won't get hurt even with high intake air temp, plus even if it does knock due to high t the ecu will pull timing.

EGT - Generally cars don't come with exhaust temp sensors, some cars come with one not sure on the Fiesta. Would be great if it has one!

 

[R3k1355]

I'd be quite surprised if a Fiesta came equipped with an EGT sensor.

If it's got a GPF there could be some sensor in there? Obviously that'd be post-turbo so not a true reading.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

TL;DR
Log knock, don't sweat on the other stuff. High oil temp, high egt, overly rich (10:1) will drastically shorten the life of your engine but knock will kill it in short order. A lean mixture or overly retarded timing will create high egt and could burn exhaust valves, or worse melt a piston, or far worse (but less likely) cause pre ignition. So if you have the ability to measure EGT great!


All of these tables essentially come down to one thing - cylinder pressure. The goal here is to create peak cylinder pressure somewhere in the region of 12-14 degrees after top dead centre (crank). Different fuel, fuel air densities, cylinder temperatures mean that the flame speed changes, that is the propagation of the flame event after a spark.

Its slow (kinda) which is why ignition timing is BTDC, you start the fire early to get peak cylinder pressure after top dead centre where the pressure from this 'explosion' can have the most mechanical advantage. The slower the flame speed the more ignition advance you need. You advance timing with RPM because you have progressively less time during each combustion event to get peak pressure in the magic 12-14 degs atdc range. The enemy of perfect peak pressure timing is knock. Knock is the name given to a phenomenon whereby a pocket of mixture ignites in a cylinder in an uncontrolled way, ahead of the flame front.

Its bad because peak cylinder pressure spikes before it should. Pre ignition is worse and different to knock and occurs before spark.

In an ideal world its really nice to have a separate wide band lambda and EGT for turbo's track/drag cars. Not so much to check up on the tune (although thats never daft) but more to spot an problem before it melts your engine, a weak fuel pump for example, or failed injector, air leak, fuel starvation etcect. something which left unnoticed will ruin your day.

One of my general concerns with taking mapped FI cars on track is that often they are mapped to achieve best power for a given setup, you do a dyno run which lasts for sub 20s each pull, make corrections, do another. Which is just fine for road use where you also do a quick pull, make your passenger giggle and call it quits. On track you are relentlessly WOT. So things get hot. Top speed runs are the worst imo as you are WOT under load for a long time. But if you keep that at the back of your head, do a few laps then have a cool down lap or two before doing a few hard laps then you will be fine. Plebs who get out in a heavily modified car and do 10-20 back to back hard laps are the ones who knock their way back into the pits and can't get their engines started again.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

I'd be quite surprised if a Fiesta came equipped with an EGT sensor.

If it's got a GPF there could be some sensor in there? Obviously that'd be post-turbo so not a true reading.

Yes, thats where I have heard of them coming on stock turbo cars.

 

[R3k1355]

Yes, thats where I have heard of them coming on stock turbo cars.

It's good they've got that sensor, but until someone's put another one in the usual location and measured the difference in readings, the data isn't very useful.

Also I guess GPF removal and sensor deactivation is a popular mod to give free flowing exhaust.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

No clue on removal tbh. Assume the sensor is part of the filter so it gets junked with the rest.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

A quick google shows this for the sensor:

(though it's not entirely obvious whether that's for a Mk7 or a Mk8...)

So I'm assuming that's a good place to read from.

Noted on the track-work. I'd never intended for this to be a track car so really it's only ever going to get used for point and squirt down a b-road and CSF. On the b-roads I usually drive on you're really limited by conditions so it's only ever a couple of seconds of WOT, followed by a lot of coasting and braking. And for CSF, if I'm having to drive across the country, have an afternoon on track, and then drive back, I'll definitely be taking it easy. Well, unless until one of you clowns successfully goads me into fully sending it. Ultimately I've no intention of chasing laptimes, so even alternating hot and cold laps would be no hardship at all.

So the plan is to go out again for some logging, doing a decent number of back to back runs to put some heat through everything, and take a log of:
- IAT
- Knock (if I can find it)
- EGT (if it's available, but it's not a GPF car, just a cat)
- AFR

For IAT I'm looking for it to keep reasonably close to ambient. Though I remember Collins telling me that they keep the limiters in place that restrict performance if IATs get too high. They claimed that lots of other tuners just remove these allowing their cars to make big figures even when the intercooler isn't really up to snuff, so worst case on this front I should just be losing performance rather than f**king my car.

If I can get any knock or EGT readings I'll post up a graph but presumably similar to IAT in that I'm just looking for things to not get noticeably worse after a few pulls.

And AFR should really just be where it was, within that tuner target of 0.78 - 0.85.

This is all great info, thanks again for the advice. Once again, CS with the knowledge!

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Sounds a good plan.

Also - there is 0% chance you won't be sending this on track 😂