cs_rich's Fiesta ST3

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Sounds a good plan.

Also - there is 0% chance you won't be sending this on track 😂

I've got 320bhp, an open diff, and a set of PS4s that have been on the car since November 2019.

'Sending it' could well be an interesting experience both for me, and any cars in my vicinity...

 

[RSRowe]

Steve's video is a good watch if you're into logging and understanding the tuning side of things.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Good on him and glad he got the results he wanted but its a bit finger in the air 😂

Who is Steve btw?

Impressive how good the Ford ecu is tbh, they clearly have it well modelled as that does not represent 'mapping' that way I know it.

 

[Krarl]

I'm sorry, is this a Fiesta thread or a mapping thread

Where are the pops and bangs?
Where are the 3D gel Ford stickers?
WHERE ARE THE POPS AND BANGS!

 

[Robbie Corbett]

In the map, can't you see them?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

I'm sorry, is this a Fiesta thread or a mapping thread

Where are the pops and bangs?
Where are the 3D gel Ford stickers?
WHERE ARE THE POPS AND BANGS!

When I had the hybrid turbo and map Gary said to me "I'm not bothering with the pops and bangs map as you don't look like the sort".

I couldn't decide whether to be insulted or not.

 

[Louis]

When I had the hybrid turbo and map Gary said to me "I'm not bothering with the pops and bangs map as you don't look like the sort".

I couldn't decide whether to be insulted or not.

Should've told him you take LSD around your kids. He'd have soon changed his mind

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Should've told him you take LSD around your kids. He'd have soon changed his mind

It says something that I had fake carbon wing mirrors and gel wing badges and that apparently still wasn't enough to qualify.

 

[R3k1355]

Cos you weren't stood there in a tracksuit vaping away.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Should've told him you take LSD around your kids. He'd have soon changed his mind

Straight for the jugular 😂

 

[imprezaworks]

Was behind one of these cars yesterday, think he was trying to play with an R8 lol. Quick little thing TBF and looked none yoofed.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Did some logging with back to back pulls (with a little time to turn around). Definite heat soak but even after 10 runs to the redline the IATs didn't exceed 13°C above ambient, and recovered pretty quickly. I'll probably repeat it again when the weather's a bit warmer just to see how much higher they get.

Obviously the lower the better, but is there any rule of thumb about how hot is too hot?

I had another poke around on FORScan for those other sensors.

Couldn't find anything relating to knock, or to EGTs, but there does appear to be a catalyst temperature sensor which I might try logging next time.

There were a couple of what appear to be lambda PIDs (O2S11 & O2S12) which apparently correspond to the wideband lambda (pre-cat) and the narrowband lambda (post-cost). Problem is that these PIDs just report a voltage and without knowing the spec of the sensor itself, you can't really convert them to an AFR (I think you can for the narrowband, but that's not the interesting one).

It looks like some apps like Torque will report AFR but they're calculating it using various PIDs and they don't publish that info. So if I wanted even a calculated AFR, I'd probably have to get yet another adaptor, this time a bluetooth one.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Last graphs for the day, I've hit my quota now...

So I went out again and logged the wide and narrow band sensors. The narrow band seems to just stick to around 0.8V right through the the pulls (both on and off throttle) but has weird drops to near 0V. The wide band is hovering around 1V when under load but then consistently shoots up to 2.5V when off throttle / coasting. Unlike that EQ_RAT sensor I was measuring before that was literally constant, this at least looks to be measuring something, though not really sure whether it's useful.

Couldn't find a specific EGT PID but there is a catalyst temperature sensor which reported a range of figures whilst I was out:

Shoots up to 900°C with WOT but doesn't seem to be creeping up on repeated pulls so I'm guessing that's not a worry.

 

[R3k1355]

Where is the catalyst on this?

I'd be worried seeing 900 at the cat, at that temperature your exhaust would be cherry red. Plus you'd really worry what the temperature is at the exhaust port.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Where is the catalyst on this?

I'd be worried seeing 900 at the cat, at that temperature your exhaust would be cherry red. Plus you'd really worry what the temperature is at the exhaust port.

Pretty much next to the turbo IIRC.

Might be in for some very gentle cooldown laps at CSF then...

Though what would you actually be able to do about this? If we were talking about inlet temperatures I understand the options for bigger intercoolers / oil temps -> oil cooler / water temps - bigger radiators etc., but I'm already running a full 2.75" turbo back system with a 200 CPI sports cat.

Looking at the higher power (350bhp+) packages the tuners offer, all of them recommend the same exhaust set up I've already got, so wouldn't their temperature issues be even worse with all that additional power?

 

[R3k1355]

Water/Meth injection?

 

[R3k1355]

cos you don't want your engine to look like this after a bunch of hot laps

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Water/Meth injection?

I guess, but again, none of the big tuners are even talking about this with their high power (higher than mine) packages.

Presumably having bigger injectors would give you more ability to enrich the mix and cool the cylinders as per the previous posts? But again, looking around, Pumaspeed aren't recommending injectors unless you go big (not hybrid) turbo, for at least 360bhp and Collins only include them with their similar power big turbo CP5 package (they even do an interim package which has the big turbo, but OE injectors, for a bit less power, but still more than me).

I know I'm putting a lot of trust in the tuners to not sell something that'll grenade itself, but I'd have expected some horror stories on the forums by now given how many people do regulary track them.

 

[RSRowe]

There’s countless lads running this setup and more on track for many years without issue.
Whilst I can appreciate all the nerding going on, I think we’re all looking into it a bit too much.

That being said, a friend of mine did a headgasket in his switching from the Peron P3XX setup to the X47R. The hybrid exhaust housing really contributed to some mega temps at the ring.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

There’s countless lads running this setup and more on track for many years without issue.
Whilst I can appreciate all the nerding going on, I think we’re all looking into it a bit too much.

That being said, a friend of mine did a headgasket in his switching from the Peron P3XX setup to the X47R. The hybrid exhaust housing really contributed to some mega temps at the ring.

Don't worry I'll get bored of the graphs and lay off any day now.

It would have been nice to get some easy AFR graphs out of it but everything I've seen so far seems fairly safe / middle of the road so I'm reasonably happy to keep driving it and have a bit of a push on track at CSF, albeit with some mechanical sympathy and regular cool-down laps.

Presumably the ring is the absolute worst case scenario for cooling with some crazy long sections of WOT? I'm only doing the afternoon at CSF which is the Coastal layout which I'm assuming is a different kettle of fish entirely.

 

[RSRowe]

It’ll be all good.

Coastal will also be a lot easier going, plus you’re really not gonna lean on the car and load it up to the max with not having a diff.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Annoying you can't log knock, but I agree it looks fine and you should send it. 900degs does seem high but without knowing where temperature is being measured and how (might just be a calculated value) the most you can do it open your bonnet after a few runs and see if the turbo housing is glowing 😂

You can likely fit a sandwich plate which will let you monitor oil pressure and oil temperature which will give a good indication of when to do some cool down laps

It’ll be all good.

Coastal will also be a lot easier going, plus you’re really not gonna lean on the car and load it up to the max with not having a diff.

Its a Fiesta ST mate, he's going to be bouncing off the limiter all day with one wheel on fire.

 

[Brigsy]

Ait's seem ok. Be nice if had boost pressure logged too, target and actual if possible.

Strange seeing 0-3v readout on wideband sensor, usually 0-5v on bosch? Oem s**t i guess. Wouldnt even log post cat narrowband nothing to see really.

No option for logging knock or timing correction?

Im with @Touring_Rob on the catalyst temp sensor, all depends on if accurate or not. Small turbos run hot when pushed, and i wouldnt be worried at 900deg at higher rpm's. My Extra van has done several trackdays with egts around 940deg egt at the collector on the manifold, at higher rpm. Ive seen 1001deg on high boost due to knock limited/lower timing, for that reason its a dragstrip map only.

If your concerned change up at 6k, your oil temps will also probably thank you for the shorter shift.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

If your concerned change up at 6k, your oil temps will also probably thank you for the shorter shift.

Yeah but there's a point at 7,000 RPM... where everything fades. The machine becomes weightless. Just disappears. And all that's left is a body moving through space and time. 7,000 RPM. That's where you meet it. You feel it coming. It creeps up on you, close in your ear. Asks you a question. The only question that matters. Who are you?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Ait's seem ok. Be nice if had boost pressure logged too, target and actual if possible.

Strange seeing 0-3v readout on wideband sensor, usually 0-5v on bosch? Oem s**t i guess. Wouldnt even log post cat narrowband nothing to see really.

No option for logging knock or timing correction?

Im with @Touring_Rob on the catalyst temp sensor, all depends on if accurate or not. Small turbos run hot when pushed, and i wouldnt be worried at 900deg at higher rpm's. My Extra van has done several trackdays with egts around 940deg egt at the collector on the manifold, at higher rpm. Ive seen 1001deg on high boost due to knock limited/lower timing, for that reason its a dragstrip map only.

If your concerned change up at 6k, your oil temps will also probably thank you for the shorter shift.

Couldn't see anything for knock. What would I be looking for on timing correction? There's a spark advance, and a couple of fuel trim PIDs IIRC but I think Rob was suggesting the advance looked a bit iffy as we don't know if it's offset.

I had another look through the logs and the cat only made it to 904°C, with it going over 900°C for literally just a couple of second at a time, so hopefully the track layout, the open diff, and judicious use of the cool-down lap shoudl be sufficient. I can't make any promises on short-shifting.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Couldn't see anything for knock. What would I be looking for on timing correction? There's a spark advance, and a couple of fuel trim PIDs IIRC but I think Rob was suggesting the advance looked a bit iffy as we don't know if it's offset.

I had another look through the logs and the cat only made it to 904°C, with it going over 900°C for literally just a couple of second at a time, so hopefully the track layout, the open diff, and judicious use of the cool-down lap shoudl be sufficient. I can't make any promises on short-shifting.

I don't think its iffy as in there is a problem I just don't think its 'total timing'. There should be a knock trim table somewhere, I've seen some oem ecu's with short/long term. I'm pretty certain my BMW ecu spits out a knock 'value' for each cylinder. Its might just be that the software you are using doesn't know where that table is and so won't let you log it.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

I don't think its iffy as in there is a problem I just don't think its 'total timing'. There should be a knock trim table somewhere, I've seen some oem ecu's with short/long term. I'm pretty certain my BMW ecu spits out a knock 'value' for each cylinder. Its might just be that the software you are using doesn't know where that table is and so won't let you log it.

Sorry yeah, that's what I meant, that you couldn't read too much into the reported values.

I'll have another look then as I think there was a short and long term trim correction. Are those knock trim sensors then?

 

[Brigsy]

Be fine at that with just going up to around 900 for a second or so.

What is the list of pid's available? I usually see long term timing correction and knock signal.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Sorry yeah, that's what I meant, that you couldn't read too much into the reported values.

I'll have another look then as I think there was a short and long term trim correction. Are those knock trim sensors then?

There are often short/long term fuel trim, and short/long term ignition trim, fuel trim is based on the lambda feedback, the ignition or knock trim is based on knock sensor feedback. You might have seen the fuel trims.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

New toy:

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Manage to fit it only breaking one interior trim tab:

Lots of different display options, some much more gimmicky than others, but there's some useful stuff in there. Even just having a live view of EGT, IAT and water temperature should give me some confidence that everything's within reasonable limits.

Interesting to see from the photo that the car's coolant sensor is showing four bars / halfway which is as high as it ever gets, all while the actual ECT reading on the Lufi is still only 50°C.

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Because I can't stop obsessing over numbers and logs, I am now confused by fuel trims. Had it out today and kept an eye on the long and short term fuel trims. STFT seems fine, hovering around zero most of the time, but LTFT sits at about -10% on idle, and then goes to -5% ish on constant speed / load.

Trying to figure out if that's acceptable as some stuff online seems to suggest it should be around zero too, some stuff says anything less than 10% is probably fine (positive or negative), and some stuff says that it'll often be way out on a tuned car as the LTFT references tables for a standard engine and that it'll be controlled by the AFR / lambda anyway. Ultimately I'm guessing that it's probably okay / in an acceptable range.

Also realised I never really paid much attention to the lowering springs that I had done at the same time as the turbo and looking at it today I think it's pretty much exactly where I'd want it:

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Oh look, more graphs:

(ignore the big jumps at the start of 3 & 4, that's just Excel being a dick)

Found out I could log AFR from FORScan. I think some of the PIDs under OBDII aren't correct, but those same PIDs under hte PCM channel seem to give proper values.

Anyway, went out and did a few runs in 3rd gear to log AFR, and got the above. I'm guessing this is all broadly in a safe / working range but I'm surprised to see so much variation. Is there any reason why I'd get such different values in basically the same conditions?

I have more data for those runs so I can see EGTs, IATs and fuel trims, but I can't see any obvious correlation between them and the AFRs. The LTFT was -3.91% for all runs, but the STFT is different for every single one, and constant throughout the WOT section. All temps are from the very end of the run at 6,000 or 7,000rpm:
Run 1: +2.34% STFT, IAT - 8°C, EGT - 771°C, Coolant - 79°C
Run 2: -3.13% STFT, IAT - 11°C, EGT - 806°C, Coolant - 85°C
Run 3: +4.69% STFT, IAT - 16°C, EGT - 862°C, Coolant - 94°C
Run 4: 0% STFT, IAT - 16°C, EGT - 863°C, Coolant - 94°C

Am I worrying about nothing again, or is there something weird going on here?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Orange and blue are a bit odd. Catalyst temp looks quite happy.

I would still not worry, do the same when the weather finally sorts its self out and if you get broadly the same results call it a win. Whats thermostat temp on this?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Orange and blue are a bit odd. Catalyst temp looks quite happy.

I would still not worry, do the same when the weather finally sorts its self out and if you get broadly the same results call it a win. Whats thermostat temp on this?

I'll attempt to stop worrying (no promises).

Thermostat is 97°C I believe.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Are the thermostats hard to change on these?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Are the thermostats hard to change on these?

Any job that requires me to open the bonnet is going to involve me paying a mechanic.

It's a good thing I don't use much screen-wash.

 

[Mr Squashie]

Are you still running stock halos?

 

[The Psychedelic Socialist]

Are you still running stock halos?
View attachment 1685452

I was, but now I'm looking on eBay for a pre-Brilloed binacle. I wouldn't want to try it myself and make a mess of things.

 

[Sir Nancy Flowers]

I washed my first car (1.2 Clio) with a brillo pad.


As I was doing it, I did wonder why all the marks I hadnt previously been able to get off were coming off so easily.


Fun times.