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Kangoo Compact (aka Racevan3)



Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Updates

Booked Kangoo in for map tweak at EfiParts last week. Was lucky and got a last min pm slot at short notice.

As it was running ok and was busy with other stuff did not get round to giving it a quick once over until the morning of the day when booked in.

A quick look round and i noticed that the alloy boost hose had been chattering on the top engine mount. Id planned on securing this for ages but not gotten round to it so decided to do it to prevent any future damage. Ten min job to whip engine mount off, drill and tap to secure a p clip.

Whipped engine mount off, drilled and tapped hole in ten mins.
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Refitted
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This is where the job went sour. The eagled eyed will notice the threads for the rear most bolt in the cam cover are a bit s**t from previous abuse. Torqued the bolt up and it went tightey then loosey pulling the remainder of the threads out, at this point i was thinking ffs why cant i leave anything alone :cautious:

Bad day tap and die kit out and luckily a longer bolt got the last 25mm of thread at the bottom, longer bolt and it torqued down solid. Got another cambelt cover to replace this one but another day job as i needed to set off asap or would be late and miss my spot!!

Arrive at Efi no issues, apart from sweating my bollox off due to no air con.

Lock and load.

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Goal was to get to the bottom of the ign pull issue. Ambient temps ridiculously high with 33deg logged in the dyno cell, but not a bad thing in some respects as i wanted it to be hot and push the engine so can get to the bottom of the issues.

AirInT 92.6 degF or 33 degC.
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Talking to Chris and we agreed due to the mega heat we werent expecting any 370+ figures today. Det cans hooked up and first run sees 360hp easy enough 22psi boost.


Ecu was pulling a degree of ign as getting the occasional ping of det at the top of the rpm which it did not do when first mapped.

Talking to Chris about it and nothing has changed apart from oil consumption since first map. The oil consumption has gone up to around 1ltr per thousand miles which is not totally unusual for forged but its getting up there for sure. Its mega piston slappy from cold, so assume a bit of oil is making its way into the cylinders and with the relatively high compression of this engine it was a recipe for premature detonation.

The engine is not a smoker yet but well on the worn side, and its not had an easy life in the early days as been in a megane thats had hard track use.

The decision was made to detune it as it needed more timing to keep the egt's lower and keep everything cooler. Boost pressure was dropped and fuel added and settled at a safe as houses 335hp/300ft/lb.

Great job from Chris as usual, hes a wizard with these. He showed me what your up against when tuning the S3000 megane ecu and to put it bluntly its a f**king nightmare due to the torque strategies compared to a nice standalone or modern ecu.

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Ultimately the engine needs a refresh, new rings and most likely rebore due to wear. Will do the maths and work out static/dynamic compression ratio as is with the 172 cams, then go from there regarding piston choice.

Certainly cant moan as the short engine owes me £380 and its done an estimated 40'000 miles since its had the forged pistons and rods fitted. Should be able to salvage most of it if all goes well, as oil pressure is still superb.

Its bought me a bit more time though so i can enjoy it for the rest of the summer and get it done over winter.

Said to Chris is it time to step up and fit a large garrett turbo on the next build, and he said save my money as cant really get the power down as is. Both agreed a new standalone ecu is a better option for traction control and boost by gear, so might use EcuMaster Black on the next build and add a few trick bits onto it, working vvt etc.

Services shot on the way home.
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Got back mega late around 1am. Ambient temps were down to 20degrees so stretched its legs a bit, still feels really quick and still severely traction limited in 1st/2nd gear. Only noticeable differences are less torque if you plant the throttle in 6th and not as strong up top as it was but overall still strong power all the way through the rpm range.

The front arch liners allegedly pop out from the wing lip if you bury the speedo on a private road too so need to sort that :LOL:

Thanks for reading!!
 

RSRowe

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 197
Just a thought, but it might be advantageous for you to run LSPI oil (if you aren't already).
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
When were you at EFI?

I could have popped over, i'm only 20 mins away.
Last Thursday mate, didnt realise you were so close. Ill be back over soon once ive sorted the trophy will give you a shout next time. Was so hot on Thursday, google maps took me past creamfields and ended up stuck in slow moving traffic. Oil temps 105deg in traffic due to heatsoak was crazy.
Just a thought, but it might be advantageous for you to run LSPI oil (if you aren't already).
Thats actually a new one to me i had to google it. Interesting read too with modern engines suffering from it from what i gather is lazy wide open throttle low down in rpm range using torque in higher gears, and recirculating oil from the oem breather dropping the octane rating of the fuel.

From looking the millers motorsport cfs does not have that in it so might give a suitable oil a shot next time. Im going to change the plugs to a colder 8 grade too as i currently run stock meg 7 grade plugs in this which is prob not ideal, a bit of a f**k up on my behalf.

Im going to do a leakdown on it this weekend and see how knackered it is for interest.
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
Last Thursday mate, didnt realise you were so close. Ill be back over soon once ive sorted the trophy will give you a shout next time. Was so hot on Thursday, google maps took me past creamfields and ended up stuck in slow moving traffic. Oil temps 105deg in traffic due to heatsoak was crazy.

Yeah i'm only in Warrington, it would have brought you in from the M56 through Daresbury i'm guessing?

I'll come over if i'm free next time you're there.
 

VenomUK

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Great update there Jon, defo some food for thought to be had there regarding engine build! Looking forward to whats to come of this.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Updates

Kangoo started misfiring from cold last week. Its done it intermittently for a while but just a couple of pops, but had developed into a 5-10 sec misfire and rough idle.

Changed plugs for bcr8es last week and comp tested it, still 160psi per cylinder so all seemed ok. Plugs did not change anything and feared it was headgasket related.

No eml and no power issues or nothing so hooked up clip to scan. No codes stored so had to look deeper in the live data. Coolant and Iat looking OK when hot
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Recording lambda and coolant/iat from start
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Bottom trace shows something a miss with the lambda sensor voltage, looks a bit lazy so on a whim i bought another genuine bosch sensor to replace the one i fitted last year/less than 5k ago when it had similar issues but not as bad.

Fired up and back to normal, no misfire and usual slightly rough idle off the 172 cams. I didnt even think lambda would be active on cold start assuming it was open loop but guess i was wrong.


Its had 2 lambda sensors fail last year, see how long this one lasts eh. Can only think the last one was possibly a snidey copy, looked right though !?

Thanks for reading!!
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
I was under the same impression as you about the lambda on cold start.

A mate had a similar issue and a new sorted it.

Weird really, it must still reference it even in open loop.
 

R3k1355

Absolute wetter.
ClioSport Club Member
Its had 2 lambda sensors fail last year, see how long this one lasts eh. Can only think the last one was possibly a snidey copy, looked right though !?

What's the placement of the lambda like on the downpipe?

Where are you buying the lambda's from, sure they're genuine?
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
What's the placement of the lambda like on the downpipe?

Where are you buying the lambda's from, sure they're genuine?
Upstream lambda is in stock megane position just after turbo. Assume last one was genuine, but never say never as bought from ebay. The new one is from a reputable company, again looks to be genuine.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
The good, the bad and the ugly

The good first.

Took the Kangoo to The Motorist in Leeds for Vanned show last sat. Also took my Extra van and joined by my old Kangoo 172 cup.

Meet up outside my mates house for convoy down.
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Random pull in off a19 to ahem water the plants. Random parking looked good so had to get a pic.
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Arrived at The Motorist and parked up. All 3x racevans together.
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My mates mrs took this pic on the way out of the motorist on the way back. Cool as f**k.
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The usual fuel and piss stop on the way back
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A few random pics as its very rare they are all out at once, and probably wont happen again for a while
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Short and tall vs old and long. Evolution from tiny 13" wheels to 18"
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Had a f**king riot to be fair driving in convoy. Adaptronic hard cut limiter in full effect on the Extra.


Had Kangoo vs Extra on a private road. Shez in the Kangoo and me in the Extra.

Current stats - Kangoo 335hp/300ft/lb - 1320kg - approx 250hp per ton.

Extra van - boost 24psi currently so estimate around 230hp/220ft/lb - 920kg - approx 250hp per ton.

Mostly level peg but Kangoo gaps the Extra by a car length on gearchange. I guess that will be fast spooling turbo and 2.0 turbo torque.

Shez drops the bombshell that she only took it to 6k rpm and im using all of the avalable 7600rpm in the Extra. I guess thats gappuccino served :LOL: kangoo would have been off if still 378hp.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
The bad

The bad news is that i noted a bit of white smoke on boost out of the exhaust when Shez was giving it some last Sat. Overall the engine is mostly running OK and going well, but still had 10 second misfire from cold and coolant use has not gone away.

It lured me into a false sense of security with a couple of days of clean starts after changing upstream lambda which was needed, but went back to misfiring from cold, and coolant going from max to min in 250 miles. So more investigation was absolutely needed.

The ugly

I had suspicions about misfiring from cold and using coolant with no visible leaks. From my gtt days this was almost certainly coolant in the cylinders when sitting.

I had noted cylinder 1 spark plug was cleaner than the rest which indicated something was going on in that cylinder when i changed them recently, so pulled that when engine was cold/sat overnight.

The indicated wet ring around the spark plug was not good, with the smell of coolant and brown mark on electrode.
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My borescope is about knackered but confirmed type d green coolant sitting in the piston dome.
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Its a squirter with no plug in.


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On refitting the plug
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So the engine is pretty poorly. Consensus is the head is cracked between the valves/water jacket, which is an issue that has cropped up on a few meg 250s due to thin casting in the cylinder head.

With the oil useage ill have to get this engine pulled soon and rebuilt.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Typically i was planning to take it to the Nurburgring in 4 weeks.

Got my Compomotive mo6 1880 refurbed in anthracite ready for the trip but was not to be. Took them down to Advance Detail in Leeds to be ceramic coated with Gtechniq crystal serum ultra. I took Jon who owns Advance Detail out in it to show him what its about, and i believe that almost finished the poorly engine off, s**t happens i guess!!

Check out the R S stamp and 2002 date stamp on the inner face, and 2x valves on one wheel. From research i believe Icarus used them on the pre production 225 for testing which is super cool.

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They can now sit in wheel bags looking sexy until new engine is built.

Negative, im pissed that ive barely enjoyed it and wanted to do a trackday before weather turns to s**t.

Positive is that it all works, just needs engine rebuild and version 1.0 will be better.

Thanks for reading!!
 
Last edited:

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
:( Gutted mate, no doubt it'll be back stronger than ever.

I've noticed a slight coolant loss on the 182 recently too. Last time it was a small hole in the rad, but it's been fine since that was done about a year ago :unsure:

Can't see any leaks anywhere, just need to have a look around the waterpump area.

Not noticed any white smoke or misfires, so i'm hoping it's not an engine issue.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
:( Gutted mate, no doubt it'll be back stronger than ever.

I've noticed a slight coolant loss on the 182 recently too. Last time it was a small hole in the rad, but it's been fine since that was done about a year ago :unsure:

Can't see any leaks anywhere, just need to have a look around the waterpump area.

Not noticed any white smoke or misfires, so i'm hoping it's not an engine issue.
I dare say yours will be ok engine wise. Stick 1bar of pressure in the header tank that will find any external leaks. I was on the verge of pressuring this up but found it straight away when removing plug.
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
I dare say yours will be ok engine wise. Stick 1bar of pressure in the header tank that will find any external leaks. I was on the verge of pressuring this up but found it straight away when removing plug.

Any links to a kit that'll adapt to the header tank to pump it up?
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
Ive not got a kit for the clio or meg its on the list to buy. I was thinking about drilling an old header tank cap and fit a schrader valve like i used to do on the gtt's years ago and pump up with a foot pump or similar.

Not a bad idea that.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Updates

Kangoo is now sorn due to poorly engine. Ive not really touched it since last post but have started gathering parts.

Have purchased a rebuilt megane bottom end. Spec is Wossner pistons stock c/r, pec conrods, new oem renault oil pump, gen renault main bearings, king big end bearings and new oem oil squirters. I wanted to use different pistons and rods, but this came up at the right price and built by a trusted company so will do for what i need.

Picked up in trusty clio van.
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I have also bought a 197 head. I wanted a 250 head but they are pretty much made of unobtanium or the ones ive found have been impossible to buy for some reason!

Anyway picked this 197 head up on the way back from Retro Rides in the Extra van. Its off a rebuilt turbo converted engine which had not been started up. Cam journals are mint and head is in very good condition.
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Also got a set of arp head studs with it that were fitted to the engine. Dont think ill be needing them at the power i require but will use them most likely.
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Ive got a set of inconel supertech valves and cat cams valve springs coming to suit. Itll be engine building time soon after doing the vital checks.

Thanks for reading!!
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
@Brigsy Is the Meg head and 197 head the same then?
Ive been told its very similar from a good source. There is slight visual differences, meg250 coilpack securing bolt on number 1 cylinder faces towards flywheel so it can be unbolted easily with boost hose fitted, whereas 197 number 1 coilpack securing bolt faces towards cambelt same as 225. Valve stems are larger on meg250, whereas 197 valve stems are same as 182/meg225. Meg 250 oil filler is central, 197 is on the cambelt end.

Ive not measured squish area cc yet but i believe they are very similar in that respect, also similar good flowing inlet and exhaust ports. Will need to do a bit of reckoning up to see what headgasket thickness is best for this one to get the right compression ratio.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Updates

Motivation has been low with this but need to get the ball rolling, engine building season is here now the weather is turning bad.

Started by removing the technomagnesio with the semislicks on as its going to be sat doing nothing for a while. Give them a mega clean up inside and out and back in the wheel bags.
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Couldnt resist trying the freshly refurbed comps on for a look. Anthracite defo works.
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Its now sat on some old ph1 225 wheels with crap tyres, no pics as looks awful. Have applied more xcf50 to the Ast coilovers for winter protection.

Also got a great deal on a new set of 4x 225/40/18 Michelin pilotsport cup2 so have them in stock for when its back on the road next year. Will get another set of comps refurbished for these and will use as road tyres.
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Ive started doing a bit to the new cylinder head and will hopefully get it down the machine shop this week if all goes well.

Thanks for reading!!
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Small update

Bottom end buttoned up, oil pump cover, oil splash plate and sump refitted. Sump had a mega clean.
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Block had a quick clean up and repaint.
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Ive painfully removed the flaking powdercoat off the 197 cam cover. I sprayed gasket remover all over it to soften it up and a combo of acetone to get the stubborn bits off. Took hours of pain but now its ready for aquablasting.

20221023_203149.jpg


Head is in the machine shop to get the supertech valves fitted, guides checked and catcams springs in. Just been doing the maths and its a toss up of 1.75mm thick head gasket giving around 8.3:1 comp or 1.9mm giving around 8.0:1, need to make a decision on that.

Interestingly the old engine had an 0.65mm clio head gasket on so static comp was a bit on the high side from memory around 9.0.1, that will explain why it was knock limited and would not take much timing up top.

Thanks for reading.
 

Donny_Dog

ClioSport Club Member
  Jim's rejects
Just caught up on this. Shitter with the misfires.
I had the same on an M3. But luckily 'just' the head gasket.

New build looks strong.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Just caught up on this. Shitter with the misfires.
I had the same on an M3. But luckily 'just' the head gasket.

New build looks strong.
Cheers mate, i hope its plain sailing after this engine build and i can get it used a bit.

I can remember reading about the e46 m3's head gaskets going gradually causing a right mess if left.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Forgot to add pics of the fully cleaned up cam cover. The aquablaster wanted all the powdercoat off, i reckon ive spent 8 hours of pain doing it. Best look nice!
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Modified breather hole in 250 breather plate. Drilled out to 10mm, didnt measure before but it was around 6-7mm iirc.
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JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
Probably splitting hairs for the power you'll be looking to run.

I'd go with the 1.75mm gasket. 8.3:1 sounds plenty low enough.

Cover and sump look good.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Probably splitting hairs for the power you'll be looking to run.

I'd go with the 1.75mm gasket. 8.3:1 sounds plenty low enough.

Cover and sump look good.
Cheers mate.

Ive been thinking the same regarding comp, i think 8.3:1 will be low enough to get a decent amount of boost/ign in and help with knock resistance on pump fuel. Might cap it at 350hp for reliability this time. Will see.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
I think it will be safe at 8.3:1 without being mega flat off boost. Scoff did say to me to consider dynamic comp ratio with the 172 cams, thats one thing ive never looked at though, so would need to do some reading up about that.
 

JamesBryan

ClioSport Club Member
  Titanium 182
I think it will be safe at 8.3:1 without being mega flat off boost. Scoff did say to me to consider dynamic comp ratio with the 172 cams, thats one thing ive never looked at though, so would need to do some reading up about that.

I've no idea how to calculate that, but the 172 cams will be a 'bigger' cam won't they compared to the Meg ones.

This will lower the dynamic ratio i think.
 

Brigsy

ClioSport Club Member
  T.Turbo
Updates.

Well basically f**k all to update. Cyl head is still in the machine shop for supertech valve fitting, 6 weeks and counting. Hopefully get that back next week.

In the mean time ive sourced all the other parts for the build. Parts for the f4r seem to be harder to get these days for whatever reason, 197/250 dephaser and cam seals were out of stock/backorder from ren but eventually found a set.

As engine is not built, dont see the point in pulling the current engine out yet to have it sat in bits for ages.

Give it a wash off and an application of gtechniq c2v3 today to keep it right. Looks sad on the ph1 225 wheels.
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Had my spare set of Compomotive Mo 1882 in rare r26r et63 offset refurbed in white and michelin pilotsport cup2 tyres fitted. Look mega, going to get them ceramic coated to help with future cleaning.
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Hopefully next update will be cylinder head back from machine shop.

Thanks for reading!!
 


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